working into/taking contact - confused

[NeverSayNever]

ive been working on getting my horse to take the contact down more, this is something always mentioned in our score sheets. Even when he works in a reasonable shape, he still isnt reaching and taking the contact down. (back/teeeth/saddle all fine).

now ive been to a few different instructors now and am currently at a point where im confused and i dont want to start being inconsistent with my horse but i keep getting conflicting advice.

My horse is rising 8 and is very capable of working nicely and with old owners and one RI who rides him, he has shown he can actually do what he is being asked. Conformationally he is fairly correct so there isnt anything making it more difficult for him.

One school of thought seems to be that i warm up on a loose rein, allowing him to stretch and then pick up the contact and insist on roundness. This results in a battle but once i win (which i usually do) its like a switch flips and i get that 'wow' feeling where i can actually sit up and ride! He reaches down into the contact and works beautifully. However the battle wears me out! He is very stubborn and strong and can go round for what seems like forever with his head in the air , meanwhile i am doing lots of transitions, spirals and changes of rein and my arms begin to feel as if they will drop off until he eventually submits.

Another RI however has said that although he is forwward going he is tricking me by actually not responding enough off my leg and i need to make sure he is really springing off me leg before i ask for roundness, to the point i drive him forward, kick even if he doesnt react, to quote "upset it a little so it listens" and then ask.

Well i tried the latter today and all that happened was i ended up with a horse who was a high as a kite, bucking and shooting forward AND resisting with his head in the air at the same time We got there in the end again by me going back to persisting with asking him for bend and we ended on a good note but im ready for a lie down, lol.

so im now not really sure what the best approach is.... my gut feeling is that he should do what im asking, when i ask, rather than be cajoled into it. He is in a plain sj hanging cheek snaffle.

 

[nikkimariet]

When you say warming up on a loose rein....do you mean long and low and stretching into your hand? Or reins like a washing line. Even when you are practicing a 'free walk' your horse should be long and low but still in your hand - it should be something you are asking for, don't think that a free rein/loose rein = no contact.

Re getting him going forward - push him forward bring him back forward/back forward/back....lots of transitions and if you feel him slow down and back off the contact bring your inside heel up a bit and gently nudge; don't let him hold himself in a position, however nice it might look....

Yes, to a degree a horse should learn to give you 'X' from the word 'go'....but there should be allowances made. I don't expect to get on my boy and have him foot perfect even though it's nice when I don't have to have an argument with him, but if I never did - I would worry that my work with him would be a little false and that I am not pushing him or myself enough, if that makes sense?

You say he shows what he's really capable of with other people such as instructors.... I don't know how much experience you have of horses; but if your instructors are a LOT more experienced on you it may just be that they automatically know how to get a difficult horse working well?? I am also unaware of how long you have had this horse - so he may well go better with an old owner who is used to his way of working more so than yourself?

Also, the 'sit up and ride' part had me confused for a few reasons. Have you had any comments related to your position? Do you sit up enough? Do you tense and set your shoulders and hands??

Try a change of bit as a hanging cheek won't encourage reaching and stretching so is probably part of the reason behind the huge contact related arguments. Would suggest: Neue Schule Team Up or perhaps a Korsteel JP curved lozenge snaffle.

 

[NeverSayNever]

thank you... yes that does make sense. ive been warming up on a loose rein and not stretching into contact so i need to address this. I have had him since last summer, been riding many years but have never liked or focused on flatwork before its always been about gallopy-jumpy stuff before Regarding my position, yes i do have a fault that in trying to get him to accept the contact and bend i end up curling forward, i know i need to sit up more but its so much easier to do so once he is actually going well, lol, so i find it a bit of a chicken-egg situation. I will look at those bits, would you recommend eggbut cheeks?

 

[nikkimariet]

I'm glad it made sense, the last thing I wanted to do was to confuse you!!

I too have position faults (naughty dropping right shoulder and piano hands)... But it is well worth recognizing them and working on them because rider style has a massive impact upon the way the horse moves and works.

I used to SJ so never used to like schooling/flatwork either!! Know the feeling!! But put it this way - schooling is the basis of everything else. If you have a nice balanced set of paces that you can work in a long contact and then pick him up - your jumping style will be TONNES better!!

You haven't had him too long, so you're probably still developing a bond - so I imagine he will still be testing you from time to time - as they love to do!!

Hmm...not a fan of eggbutt checks - but that is a personal preference. Well worth trying it out, because you never know he might love it!! Let me know it all pans out

 

[NeverSayNever]

thanks so much! ive finally clicked that all those people who told me flatwork was the foundation of everything were right, haha. I got him last June but had had a confidence knock with previous horse so we didnt do much to begin with. Then winter hit with avengence up here and i wasnt really able to ride from november to march!! So in many ways, yes we are still just getting to grips with one another.

I actually have a great selection of snaffles here with loosering cheeks i can try... i have the jp curved but with a single joint, but i do have a copper lozenge loosering, although its not curved. The reason i was thinking eggbut was i thought the loosering might not be the best to encourage him to take the contact and a fixed cheek might be better?

 

[nikkimariet]

No problem

It's a long road building up a good bond with a horse. Been riding Bruce for years but finishing uni has meant I've started to take on more work with him. So even though I've been riding and 'once in a blue moon' schooling him for ages, I'm only just starting to create that close knit bond with him. He gave me a dirty, snotty snog earlier so I think it's going alright!! This winter just gone by was awful - nearly got stuck at uni because of snow (Cumbria) thankfully made it back home!!

Again, it's through personal preference that I dislike eggbutts. Have never found them easy to work with. I think it is about finding something that you *and* him both like. So try a variety, and by all means try the eggbutt - don't let my finicky choices deter you (I find that with a hard to soften mouthed horse fixed bits don't encourage what is wanted, but that might just be me)! Good point on the copper bit - try experimenting with different materials from plastic, steel to high copper counts. His attitude to each might vary - you might immediately be able to tell that he doesn't like one, but it might not be apparent for a week or so in another bit.

 

[dafthoss]

Thanks guys my boy is just the same but his is more of a not sure what to do, so then gets frustrated with not knowing, poor boy he is getting there.
NM - as a dresses diva, how do you get them to understand that you want downwards stretching? My instructor said it will just take time and he will then go but it's not working so far and it was commented on in our dressage test sheet

 

[Wagtail]

Sounds like your horse needs to relax more at the withers. However, it also sounds as though you may be falling into the same old trap as the majority of novices being taught by BHS instructors. The old 'push him into the contact. More leg. Shorten your reins!' comes to mind. If this is what you are hearing, then it's time to look for a new instructor. The thing that made me think this, is where you say it is such a fight with him finally giving in. This is the result of this kind of teaching, and meanwhile, the horse loses his mouth! If you imagine any part of your body being subjected to a narrow metal bar pressed into it with that amount of force for that amount of time, then it is going to damage the blood supply and nerves. It is not the way to go on. Without seeing you ride, I cannot start to tell you where you are going wrong, but I can guess, because I have seen it so often before. I hope you find someone who can teach you and make things easier.

 

[nikkimariet]

NM - as a dresses diva, how do you get them to understand that you want downwards stretching? My instructor said it will just take time and he will then go but it's not working so far and it was commented on in our dressage test sheet

It will take time yes - imagine trying to do the splits when you're used to doing endurance running - totally different muscles.

This is a step by step of what *I* do: Walk round with totally loose reins for a couple of circuits. Then pick up slightly and keep my hands low. I squeeze with my thighs and push with my seat whilst asking for a contact. Flex gently from side to side. Circles and serpentines - lots of! Push forward on the long sides and then small circles in the corners. Establish the balance along with the contact. Gradually increase the flexion and ever so slightly shorten your reins. Ask for more contact and push more from your seat and forward into the contact. It won't be perfect as you're still warming up at this stage. Don't think of walk as just a warm up for trot and canter - it should be a fully integrated part of your schooling sessions. Keep coming back to it. Practice collected, medium and free walks.

The key is to keep the contact between your seat to hands to horses mouth with the reins being the translator. The legs and seat keep the power and impulsion and your contact softens the mouths and asks for a low carriage to stretch the muscles over the neck and back.

Walk schooling is a good time to keep a check on and improve your position if you have a dead baby neck and wandering hands like me....

 

[dafthoss]

Thanks
Yep I have a wandering left hand I keep the contact but have to draw it back to do so not good but someone suggested putting tape on the reins so it is more noticeable before it gets to bad. Will give that a go tomorrow along with the tape and hope we can sort our selves out. Maybe one day he will be a golden Bruce (he's dun). Well I can hope anyway.

 

[nikkimariet]

If possible try and get someone to come and watch you - anyone - and tell them to watch your left hand. And whenever it moves in a bad way, tell them to shout 'left hand!!' at you or something. My sister has a set of key phrases ranging from 'weird right hand!!' to 'dead baby neck alert!!!'

Being made aware of the difference between good and bad riding posture makes it easier for you to realize when your left hand it being naughty!! Then gradually, you will begin to auto-correct the situation and it will become something that you naturally check and adjust yourself

Golden Bruce sounds pretty!

 

[jhoward]

Ive watched most of your previous videos, and I think your perfectley capable of achieving what your aiming for but amongst the confusion I would be thinking your holding your horse in the hand whilst being to firm with your seat and legs which is whats getting him in a tiz.

warm him up anyway you like, but then come on to a circle, and rather than asking for collecting ask him to flex to the inside, keep him on a long as rein as your happy with and keep gently asking, not just with your rein but soften your body and free up his inside shoulder. as you feel he is working then enlarge your circles, and start playing with a shorter contact.

a lot of the time with schooling I find im more than capable of what i want to be doing but sometimes i need to go back to basics for myself and tell myself.. as in tell my self im blocking the horse and sort it out! if you know what i meen.

 

[NeverSayNever]

just a little update! i schooled again today, with the copper lozenge loosering. Warmed up in my usual way but made sure i had a contact then started working in trot on circles and did what JHoward suggested... within 5 minutes ( i timed it) we had a lovely outline and he was actively taking the contact down Ok so it wasnt wholly consistent but after 1/2hour of very good work we stopped and Im really very pleased. thanks guys

a pic of the boy from today

 

[jhoward]

well done you hes looking good too!