Working livery...

[Grazinia*]

My horse has been in working livery at a very reputable college and most of the time it has been working out okay but this weekend I fell out with the yard manager. Basically, my horse was booked in for three lessons in a row, meaning that he had his tack on for over three hours (he won't drink even if offered water with it on) and it was super hot and clammy that day. Am I being unreasonable to kick off about it??

 

[zaminda]

I teach on a riding school and although our horses do three hours a day as a maximum they never do three on the trot as the management don't think it's fair. I personally wouldn't be happy although I ride my own for more than three hours straight out hacking working in the school is rather different. Do they slosh the horses off in between if they are hot?

 

[SpringArising]

Three hours of “lessons” with tiny tots doing walk and some trot - fine.

Three hours with teens doing trot/canter/jumping non-stop - not really acceptable and should have been broken up.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I wouldn't be happy with this, no.

 

[WandaMare]

3 hours is too much I think, especially if the weather was hot, poor horse. I wouldn't want that for my horse and I bet the managers there wouldn't want it for their own horses either. You were right to object, I would lose trust in them for doing that and would want some strong assurances it wouldn't happen again if the horse is to stay there. I would say 2 hours a day for working livery and maybe 3 occasionally, if the third was a hack and there was a significant break between lessons.

 

[Goldenstar]

Three hours is standard per day for a horse in such situations.
But would never do three in a row .

 

[Grazinia*]

No I've never seen them slosh him off but maybe they do when I'm not there, though they do offer him water but as I say, he won't drink whilst still tacked up. That was the point I made, couldn't they manage his lessons with breaks in between so he could drink/rest. She just said that his lessons were all low level so it didn't matter - on the sheet it looked as though he was booked for four lessons but the rider hadn't turned up.

 

[Grazinia*]

He normally does an intermidiate jump followed by advanced jump straight away then a flat lesson after a break and I felt he could cope with that, but I don't like him doing two jump lessons back to back. I'm trusting them to know what they are doing.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Three hours on the trot, no. Two consecutive lessons with a decent break in between a third one, yes. You are right to be concerned.

When mine was on working livery yonks ago he was permitted to do 3 hours per day maximum, whether with the RS or ridden by me. They used him for 1 or 2 hours per day depending on how much my livery cost, with Mondays a compulsory rest day. It worked well. I always hacked him out when he'd been used in the school, which is all I was interested in doing back then.

 

[sport horse]

He normally does an intermidiate jump followed by advanced jump straight away then a flat lesson after a break and I felt he could cope with that, but I don't like him doing two jump lessons back to back. I'm trusting them to know what they are doing.

My experience of colleges, and I am very sorry for this, is that they often have absolutely no idea of what they are doing. Many of the staff have never worked in the industry, they have learned everything from the book and that does not give you the wide experience of life on a yard with multiple horses and keeping those horses well and sound over along period of time.

Your horse, your decision as to what he does. If you feel it is too much then it probably is.

 

[Goldenstar]

Are the jump lessons in groups ?
It’s still a lot of jumping if it’s six days a week .

 

[Grazinia*]

Yes, the jump lessons are in groups but he is being increasingly pushed at the advanced level (which I have to expect if people are to improve) so I'm going to ask for only one jump lesson at the weekend - he is increasing the level with the students during the week of course!

 

[WandaMare]

I still think that's a lot for a working livery arrangement. Riding school horses might do 3 hours in the school but with working livery there has to be some capacity for the owner to ride too. I had a horse on working livery a few years ago and she did maximum 8 hours a week for the school, another yard where I kept a horse on full livery, had a working livery arrangement of 10 hours maximum a week. If your horse is jumping every day and doing so many hours for the college, I don't understand how you can fit any riding in yourself. He must be very fit.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think you need to reduce the jumping or he will End up lame .

 

[Grazinia*]

He is super fit atm but I am worried about his work load - yard manager says that he did 10 hrs work last week with a mix of jump/flat lessons. He has Sundays off but that is the day I do sj competition once a month. I hack out once a week and do flat work once a week and clear round once a fortnight but quiet often I just walk him in hand to eat grass as I feel so bad about making him work, especially if I can tell he is too tired to be tacked up!

 

[Grazinia*]

Yes, they've agreed to not use him on a Saturday now - it was the back to back jumping that I found hard to accept as I think that he works hard enough for them during the week - just a shame I've had to fall out with them over it! I had spoken to the college director last month and she agreed that they wouldn't do that, but it crept in again!

 

[glamourpuss]

3 hours a day working in an arena being jumped as much as that? You are so very lucky this horse isn’t crippled &/or sour.
You really do need to address this pretty quickly IMO.

 

[Shay]

Its good that you have got them to drop the Saturday classes again. But it is clear they do not have the long term health or welfare of your horse at heart. To them he is just a breathing machine. In your place I would be looking for another livery arrangement. Horses cannot sustain a pace like that for any length of time. Unless you are planning on an early and long retirement for him you are going to have to look at other solutions.

Working livery is cheaper. And I know it does feel like there is experienced back up. But this has highlighted the fact they do not actually have his welfare at heart. A good livery yard would probably be better -although I accept more expensive.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are only so many jumps in a horse a lame horse is expensive be careful this is not a false economy .

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Yes, they've agreed to not use him on a Saturday now - it was the back to back jumping that I found hard to accept as I think that he works hard enough for them during the week - just a shame I've had to fall out with them over it! I had spoken to the college director last month and she agreed that they wouldn't do that, but it crept in again!

Speak to the college director again. A decision was made regarding the work load of your horse & the yard manager has paid no attention to that. The yard manager needs sorting out by the director. Who runs things, the director or yard manager!

 

[southerncomfort]

Personally, I'd have him out of there ASAP.

They are riding him in to the ground and it's you that is going to end up with a lame horse and large vets bills. Quite apart from the excessive workload it doesn't sound like you are able to enjoy riding your horse much.

If the Yard Manager won't respect your wishes regarding your horse's workload then I can't see how you can trust them to take care of him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My mare came to me in 2016 after 2 years on working livery at <Big Name> Equestrian college. She was in a shocking state with a sore back, appalling dental issues and crap foot balance, all sustained whilst she was in their 'care'.

A far cry from the genuinely good care that my horse got at working livery at a good old fashioned riding school in the early 80's. I'd get him out.

ETA my mare has gone on to be diagnosed with bilateral hock arthritis amongst other various ailments despite managing to pass a 5 stage vetting with a top referral practice on purchase. This inappropriate useage could be storing up future problems for your horse.

 

[WandaMare]

Even though you have the horse on working livery it is still up to you to look after his interests, please don't trust them to do this. Our horses rely on us to look out for them, what they are doing verges on plain cruel in my opinion so I would be moving him somewhere else asap.

 

[Red-1]

I would move him too. That does not sound like a fair workload, plus with different riders he will not be using himself properly so will be more likely to have issues.

The yard manager will always creep extra work on against agreed limits, they have proved that.

I did once have my horse on a working livery back in 1989 when I did my AI. The horse did 2 lessons a day, one flat and one jump. He may have done a lead rein lesson or lungeing in the afternoon, but that was not regular. That was just 5 days a week. Many of the days he just did one of the lessons. It meant that if there was an issue in a lesson I could ride in the evening and tune him up again, or just take him for a short hack to revitalise his spirits. He was event fit when I took him, so he was up to the work, and it only lasted 6 weeks.

So I do think a working livery can work, but not as yours seems to be organised.

I have seen many horses with slight lameness worked in training establishments. I would make sure mine was not one of them!

 

[Keith_Beef]

Three hours is standard per day for a horse in such situations.
But would never do three in a row .

This is pretty much the case where I ride, too. And I think that each horse gets either one full rest day, or two full rest half-days, per week.

 

[Lammy]

I would not entrust the college near me with one of my own horses. 10 years ago yes, but not now. Budgets are tighter so they have less horses and ontop of that the horses no longer get ad lib forage and only small beds, they do a lot of work and don't get cared for appropriately imo. When I was at college the advanced horses would do 2 hours, 1 in the morning and 1 afternoon. The lower level horses did 2 or 3 but the work was far easier and often a few lessons were for the special needs students which were walk/trot only.
3 lessons in a row is way too much and if they were willing to do that to a horse in the first place it would be enough to make me move!

 

[honetpot]

I would take him out. Its not just the amount of work its the fact you have already agreed with the Director that he would do less work but ended up doing more, so its obviously not well run. I would email straight away, and state your points, so they can not deny what you have said, and expect a reply.
He must be a lovely horse to put up with so much work and not be naughty so will be worth a lot of money, and difficult to replace.

 

[Nasicus]

Another one to suggest removing him. They'll run him into the ground and toss him back to you once he's used up/sour/crippled and bring the next one in.

 

[Grazinia*]

Yes he is a lovely horse, too compliant but I trusted them to not take advantage of this! I have emailed the yard manager stating my concerns and this was her reply;

"The amount of work all the horses do is monitored very careful. Texas this week has worked 10 hours this week including yourself riding him and Saturday. This week for example as it’s half term Texas will work 2 maybe 3 hours with us. Are horses at the college are looked after to the best standards possible by all the staff and I’m sadden to think that you thought we would work Texas that hard."

That was in reply to me seeing him on the list to do four lessons that day, but apparently it was a working list which had changed and he hadn't been crossed off for one lesson. However, they still did the three hours non stop lessons and they seem to think that this is normal? There has been no acknowledgment or apology so it gives me a lack of confidence in them apart from saying that they won't work him on Saturday from now on. It just saddens me to think that they find it acceptable to work any horse like that, not just mine, and judging by all the comments here, no one has stood up for that practice and said that it is okay

I will be looking to take him out of working livery but many of us that have young fit horses and work full time can't work them as often as they need, so it's not all about finding a cheap livery option! I am looking for someone to share my 17.5h boy but that seems to come with it's own horror stories - maybe there should be a thread about that too!

 

[SadKen]

My old mare was on working livery in the early 90s. She did 6 hours a day at the weekends and 2-3 hours a day in the week. She'd have a break after 3 hours for an hour, there was a water trough but the tack stayed on for each 3 hour stint.

BUT

It was mostly walk (riding school, mostly kids) so only one horse was ever trotting/cantering at a time from the front to the back of the ride - or hacking out, again in walk 95% of the time. There were rare occasions where we would all trot at once but they were rare indeed! I have to say all the horses thrived on that regime - we had no lameness, no colic, no lami. I think it was positive for the horses and they were all fit, and pretty much all of them lived and worked happily until their late 20s.

however what your lad is doing is IMO a shortcut to some serious issues - jumping that much looks excessive to me - if he's your only horse and you want longevity rather than a short dazzling spell in the spotlight, I'd knock it on the head right now. The justification by the college is dubious in both its accuracy and its intent.