Working Pupils. Experiences?

[Rollin]

If you work in a yard in return for training what sort of treatment reward do you get?

I will explain. In France I employ a stable jockey who spent two years as an apprentice on a TB training yard. It has proved to be an excellent working relationship.

Recently I also employed and Equine Studies student who is supposed to work Sunday mornings and two Monday mornings a month. He is at college two weeks out of four but has a Patron/Trainer for two weeks out of four.

I have found he works 8 hours a day for no pay, in return for grass livery. He is not getting the practical tuition he was promised.

If he were working the same hours for me, he would be earning 3 x his the value of his grass livery, with social security payments and getting his lunch provided too.

 

[ajn1610]

I did 6 months with an eventing 'name' in 2005. There were 2 full time members of staff, myself as W.P. and during the holidays a young rider was based there who would also help on the yard. There were between 25 and 35 horses on the yard all in 24/7 so it was very labour intensive with long days. I rode less than once a week, they couldn't offer me keep of a horse and they charged me a small rent for my accommodation (shared room including bills but not food). I was an idiot, I knew on about day 4 I was going to get taken for a ride (pardon the pun!) I've no idea why I stayed other than just stubbornness. My lunging, mucking out, pulling and clipping got very good but as I'd gone with the aim of improving my riding, which actively deteriorated due to riding so infrequently, it was not a positive experience.

 

[Redders]

I was a W.P and accepted awful pay as I was meant to be receiving training through my stages at a rate of 2 hr long lessons a week. This never happened. I remember only having about 5 lessons in my almost full year there and decided to give up on finishing stages as couldn't afford to live on the money. I was given accommodation and food in the form of having meals with the family but this was all deducted from my wage in the same way the lessons would be. Basically I received £70 a week for working 6 days a week and was given accommodation and supposed to have those lessons (which barely materialised) I was treated like I was there to do everything required in terms of horse work, house stuff and maintainence, which wasn't strictly in the job description! I did learn a lot to do with land management etc but I was taken advantage of in terms of pay!

 

[Clare85]

I was a wp at a riding school and I have to say I had a great experience. The pay wasn't great but I got fabulous riding tuition at least 3x a week, stable management twice a week and all my exam fees paid for. The owners of the yard were lovely people and it was a great place to work. I was never made to feel inferior or like a skivvy. But I know lots of places don't treat their staff as well, unfortunately.

 

[LeannePip]

i was a WP for about 6 months on an event yard i was the only member of staff + the 2 riders i worked for got £50pw for 6days a week work, accomodation was included as was horse and it all started out well. then more horses got taken on the hours per day increased then the event season started and i was often left on a yard completely alone with 20+ horses. whilst my riding on my own horse improved exponentially that is about all i got out of it! initially i lived with the staff of another rider on the yard when they all left the people i worked for moved in with me which meant i never really got a moment to myself so would work 2 weeks straight so i could go back home for two days, i would start on the yard about 7am and it wasnt undeard of for us to be finishing off about 9pm we'd go in have dinner and then have to go back out about midnight to do late night yard which consisted of; skipping out the 20+ horses, filling water, haying and cleaning tack! i didnt get to do any 'groom' type things like plaiting/pulling/clipping despite being very capeable of this. after 6months i called it quits and went home, towards the end of my time there another girl had moved in with her horse to compete for the season and she found it just as rough but it was nicer having someone to share it with!

 

[CaleruxShearer]

I was a working pupil for the 2011/2012 event seasons on a top yard. I wasn't paid. I had one horse there for free, I paid for shoes, entries and feed supplements. I also received free accommodation, no bills but did have to buy my own food. I worked 6 days a week, started at 7:30am, an hour for lunch if we had time, if not we would just nip into the cottage and make a sandwich then come back and eat on the go. We generally aimed to be finished around 6 then lates at 9.
ETA: I was pretty lucky and did get regular help on my horse. I rode all the babies and schooled all the horses up to about Intermediate level. I hacked all the horses and galloped the 4* horses occasionally.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

So this summer as a WP.

In return for (basically full-time) work..

Stabling and grass livery + feed
I lived with them, was fed etc.
Daily training (mostly on my girl but other stuff like side-saddle - which I loved- on her horses)
Amazing opportunities ie. went to competitions and got to experience and help out "backstage"
Taken to and helped out at competitions including a championship 6hours away

+ best of all
Friends for life

 

[Sol]

Currently doing basically 3 half days as a WP, small yard. I get a schoolmaster lesson at least once a week (on a day I don't work), usually get to do some other riding & get to go & watch any lessons/training, go to comps, have competed trainers young horse twice & she took me to the Nationals to watch at her expense which was lovely! I've also taken my gelding up there several times now, for a few days at a time & he stayed a fortnight at one point which was brilliant. I can honestly say I am getting more than I expected & couldn't be more grateful for the opportunity. I should also get chance to compete my own horse next year (which I couldn't do otherwise as I have no transport) so frankly will do just about anything in return at this point!! And I still have plenty of time to do my job around it too!

 

[lme]

Daughter did WP / apprenticeship and got paid apprentice wage. We paid for her horse to be there (which meant she was paid maybe £30 pw plus keep for her horse) and she was supposed to get regular ridden training. Training didn't happen so she left.

Then worked 2d pw for another rider in exchange for a weekly lesson on her horse. That led to a full time job and 2 years later she still works for the same rider.

For me the key thing with any WP deal is that it should be win / win for both parties.

 

[khalswitz]

Doing a sort of WP role at my current job on an event yard (boss has ridden 4*, and her daughters both done 3*). Work 6 days a week but not all day (normally 8.30-4 or 10-5), get my horse's livery incl feed and bedding, training (only get the odd official lesson but we ride out twice a day at least every day and I get feedback whilst we school out hacking every day, on my own horse and others) and get my lunch included, plus about £50 a week. My dad thinks it's shocking pay - I think it's A fabulous set up. I will also get to tag along to local events next season (although I'll be the stay-at-home for the further afield events) and will get to go Sj/Dr and clinics with them too. I'm loving it - and learning loads! Riding has already improved and learning tons about the management too. Best decision I made

 

[RachelFerd]

I really don't understand how any of this can be legal?

At least in racing 'pupils' and 'trainees' are paid at correct rates - and accommodation cannot be taken off on top in some circumstances:

"Accommodation provided by an employer can be taken into account when calculating the minimum wage. The offset rate for accommodation charges is £5.08 a day or £35.56 a week. If an employer charges more than this, the difference is taken off the worker's pay which counts for the minimum wage."

 

[khalswitz]

I really don't understand how any of this can be legal?

At least in racing 'pupils' and 'trainees' are paid at correct rates - and accommodation cannot be taken off on top in some circumstances:

"Accommodation provided by an employer can be taken into account when calculating the minimum wage. The offset rate for accommodation charges is £5.08 a day or £35.56 a week. If an employer charges more than this, the difference is taken off the worker's pay which counts for the minimum wage."

It's probably not. I doubt many grooms are paid the minimum wage, and even if they are livery and accom being taken off leaves you without much...

 

[RachelFerd]

As far as I'm concerned it needs to stop - no-one should be working for pennies like this. If there is a proper apprenticeship scheme in place, great. If not, needs to be sorted out. Grooms need to stand up for themselves and not be taken as complete mugs!

One of many reasons why working in racing, despite it's problems, is a much more sensible way to work with horses...

 

[Penumbra]

As far as I'm concerned it needs to stop - no-one should be working for pennies like this. If there is a proper apprenticeship scheme in place, great. If not, needs to be sorted out. Grooms need to stand up for themselves and not be taken as complete mugs!

One of many reasons why working in racing, despite it's problems, is a much more sensible way to work with horses...

I know one yard who do employ people as apprentices, through a proper scheme. I think the issue with this for some set ups is that in order for it to be an official apprenticeship they have to do one day a week at an approved college. In this case it works because there is a nearby agricultural college where they can do their day release and train towards their BHS qualifications. They also aren't provided with livery for their horses.

They are paid a proper, if reduced wage and getting real training, lots of riding on a range of horses including young stock, and the occasional chance to compete. I believe employing apprentices entitles the yard owner to some form of government funding as well.

However, this set up only works because there is a "training provider" within driving distance, and the people involved don't need free livery. It also only works because the employer can commit to releasing their apprentices on a fixed day each week- which might not work for an employer who stays away at shows midweek, for example.

I agree lots of grooms are treated very poorly and are working for essentially nothing.

 

[khalswitz]

As far as I'm concerned it needs to stop - no-one should be working for pennies like this. If there is a proper apprenticeship scheme in place, great. If not, needs to be sorted out. Grooms need to stand up for themselves and not be taken as complete mugs!

One of many reasons why working in racing, despite it's problems, is a much more sensible way to work with horses...

But it happens in every career - I know countless uni friends who did unpaid (and completely unpaid, not in exchange for livery or other alternate forms of pay like grooms get) internships to gain experience in order to get on the career ladder. Nowadays, people don't hire you til you have experience - and there aren't many paid apprenticeships/internships in any sphere. WPs get paid in kind a lot of the time as thats how many horsy people operate - there's not often a lot of spare cash, but livery for a horse or accom and food are often much easier to supply. You not only get training, but experience, as well as pay in kind, and you can also gain valuable contacts - I've made contacts through previous grooms jobs that have then led to me getting rides, and my current one has already given me contacts that have led to work through my business as well. The mentoring that hors epeople give and receive is well documented - Carl and Charlotte being a famous example, where Carl was first boosted by Bechtolsheimer, and the cycle goes on...

 

[RachelFerd]

I am really against the internship system outside of working with horses too... it doesn't help that grooms have not had a trade union for very long. At least racing staff have NASS to ensure that they are paid on the correct pay scales.

The trouble with interning, and with working pupils, is that for it to work for the trainee/intern/pupil it relies on them coming from a wealthy enough background to ensure that parents or other-halves are happy to pay for them to exist while they work for next to nothing.

I have worked with horses, on and off, for a while - never had to have the p*ss taken out of me, because fortunately I did my BHS exams off my own back while I was still in school and have always been able to find part time employment as a riding instructor, or in an equine vets when I needed the extra money, without having to work for nothing. I also worked in the music industry as a PR for 3 years without ever interning, which is pretty much unheard of - I struck lucky!

Basically, the whole thing is a case of perpetual inequality. Those with money can afford to do the WP or internship route, those without, have to accept that they cannot take those 'potential' leaps of faith in taking those positions... hence they never get that chance to break through the system.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/28/unpaid-internships-privilege-ruin-journalism

http://www.sharedjustice.org/unpaid_internships_socio_economic_inequality

I really think that the equestrian industry has to take a step back and look at it's position in the job marketplace a bit more seriously. They can't attract good grooms wanting to make a career, as there is no proper recognized formal training structure and no easy route to progress to better pay. Half the problem is that too many people are willing to take these essentially illegal job situations without making a fuss about it.... BGA needs to step up and create a proper wage agreement for the industry which is actually upheld.

 

[Zebedee]

Just came across this on FB.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/dressed-overalls-looking-work

The problem is a lot of young people who think that they'd like a career with horses don't realise that the W in WP stands for WORKING. A friend of mine has real trouble keeping trainee staff. They get £100 per week, 5 proper lessons a weeks, are taken to shows & given opportunities to compete. One little madam arrived for a trial day, & although was shown how the mucking out needed to be done (not exactly rocket science) still wasn't doing a satisfactory job. That one left at lunch (feeling ill) then rubbished the yard all over FB saying stuff like 'I'm not working as a slave for a pittance - I went there to ride not to shovel ****' (16yr old school leaver). Another yard is at the point where they will offer minimum wage to untrained inexperienced yard staff, but if they want a lesson then it's £30, & working hours will be just that, work, not trips to events & shows etc. Sad state of affairs but seems to be the only way forward with the way things are now.

 

[Zebedee]

If you work in a yard in return for training what sort of treatment reward do you get?

I will explain. In France I employ a stable jockey who spent two years as an apprentice on a TB training yard. It has proved to be an excellent working relationship.

Recently I also employed and Equine Studies student who is supposed to work Sunday mornings and two Monday mornings a month. He is at college two weeks out of four but has a Patron/Trainer for two weeks out of four.

I have found he works 8 hours a day for no pay, in return for grass livery. He is not getting the practical tuition he was promised.

If he were working the same hours for me, he would be earning 3 x his the value of his grass livery, with social security payments and getting his lunch provided too.

Sorry - didn't answer your question. WPs at the first yard I mentioned work 6 days per week, get 5 proper lessons a week (mainly on site but with trips to XC schooling venues occasionally as well), they get to go to shows (as grooms & to compete) & get to watch when high level trainers are on the yard for clinic days. They are paid £100 living out, no horse livery.

 

[khalswitz]

I am really against the internship system outside of working with horses too... it doesn't help that grooms have not had a trade union for very long. At least racing staff have NASS to ensure that they are paid on the correct pay scales.

The trouble with interning, and with working pupils, is that for it to work for the trainee/intern/pupil it relies on them coming from a wealthy enough background to ensure that parents or other-halves are happy to pay for them to exist while they work for next to nothing.

I have worked with horses, on and off, for a while - never had to have the p*ss taken out of me, because fortunately I did my BHS exams off my own back while I was still in school and have always been able to find part time employment as a riding instructor, or in an equine vets when I needed the extra money, without having to work for nothing. I also worked in the music industry as a PR for 3 years without ever interning, which is pretty much unheard of - I struck lucky!

Basically, the whole thing is a case of perpetual inequality. Those with money can afford to do the WP or internship route, those without, have to accept that they cannot take those 'potential' leaps of faith in taking those positions... hence they never get that chance to break through the system.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/28/unpaid-internships-privilege-ruin-journalism

http://www.sharedjustice.org/unpaid_internships_socio_economic_inequality

I really think that the equestrian industry has to take a step back and look at it's position in the job marketplace a bit more seriously. They can't attract good grooms wanting to make a career, as there is no proper recognized formal training structure and no easy route to progress to better pay. Half the problem is that too many people are willing to take these essentially illegal job situations without making a fuss about it.... BGA needs to step up and create a proper wage agreement for the industry which is actually upheld.

TBH I agree re: the wealth inequality of unpaid internships. However, when most grooms and WPs are being paid in kind I think you have a different story. I get paid in lessons, rides to clinics and shows, livery, food, as well as some cash - but the cash then is very, very little. And if paying in kind allows a yard to hire a groom that might not otherwise, then that is a big deal.

Plus, you then have to consider statutory sick pay, maternity leave, pensions... it gets very complicated. Much easier to consider the groom as freelance and therefore self-employed, therefore not on an hourly rate, and in charge of their own taxes and therefore not down to the yard.

 

[lme]

Zebedee, the deal at your friend's yard sounds like the sort of thing my daughter thought she was signing up for in her WP / apprentice role. I can't see why anyone would be unhappy with it.

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

I was WP in Spain got £50 pw worked 5.5 days a week, about 2-3 lessons a week but also plenty of feedback any time I got on a horse and I got to ride between 3 and 5 per day. I got a lovely big shared flat no bills apart from food although I often was given lunch and no livery as obviously a bit far from home I was generally treated as part of the family and although I worked usually from 8-9pm we had lovely long siestas plenty of cold beer, parties and a pool to swim in. It was amazing experience for a short time I learned loads not sure I am cut out for it forever though.