Working versus show

[MotherOfChickens]

for discussion. I know I've bored many of you with the search for a breed this year. We couldnt be more pleased with the working Goldie that we have, he's brilliant.

Quite often on here posters are told to not go for working bred dogs-every reason from owners can't possibly cope with their drive to it being cruel to rob an animal with so much selective breeding, of its proper job.

I've spoken to quite a few breeders-I tried to speak to at least two of every breed I was interested in. Without exception (in the gun dogs) breeders of working animals told me to go for working lines for better temperament and trainability even in a pet home. This was for ESS, Goldies and Setters (including a WH Vizla breeder who used to breed and work setters).

The only breeders that told me their breed wasnt suitable as all round family dog that we wanted, due to the one-person bond the dogs like to have, were the Welsh sheep dog breeders.

So are these breeders just biased?

 

[Dry Rot]

There was an old breeder who used to sell working setter pups to pet homes on the understanding that he would buy them back at the same price if it did not work out. That way, he got a nicely socialised and reared pup for nothing at the adolescent stage when it was just ready for training. The dog was probably out of control, had discovered game, and learnt about the joys of hunting by that time! I bred that same strain for 20 years and the few sold as pets turned out to be a disaster. Once they'd discovered there was game out there, they'd be gone as soon as a door or window was left open.

I suggest you employ some commonsense and at least learn what the working breed you are interested in does when trained and in a 'proper job'. I would suggest that a dog that has been selectively bred for centuries to run flat out on the open moor with such a passion for hunting that it will keep going for hours at a time is not best suited to quiet country walks and lying beside the fireside in the evenings! Yes, there are successes and you will hear about them. What you won't hear about are the ones that take a one way trip to the vet because their owners are too ashamed to admit that they made a mistake.

Sorry to be blunt but I care about dogs and have no time for owners who haven't bothered to go to their local library and at least read a few books about the breeds. Take on a pup from a breed that is bred to hunt and don't be surprised if it either learns how to hunt and ignore thhe owner or channels it's instincts into something that doesn't fit in with family life. The Devil finds work for idle hands! Paws too! Look at the breeder's dogs, his life style, and see what kind of a life they live at least.

"So are these breeders just biased?"

No, just practical. They just want to sell the pups before they pass their 'sell by' date. After three months of age, a lot of pups are over their cute stage and are difficult to sell.

 

[Clodagh]

When we bought our working lab we had first pick but the breeder guided us as she recommended a few of the litter for pet homes and people that wanted workers got the ones with more oomph. I think labs are easy though - you can channel their energy into so many things, fetching a ball in the park makes them happy. I imagine a goldie would be the same.
Collies I think are harder, you see so many pet collies with issues, there are 5 round here, all have that manc intensity about them and are stalking cars/spinning on the lead/ tense, they don't tend to look happy.
GSDs again, like collies, the working bred ones have that scary stare and intensity about them.
Working bred terriers like Patterdales should come with a warning before any go to pet homes, they are hard dogs, bred to be so and do like hunting.
Things like vizlas I have never encountered. My cousin has several rescue GSPs who are all very nice but mad as hatters, run like loons and one points at random things, they sleep in the evenings though but she is very active with them.
Most show bred dogs are perfectly more than capable of learning what the average pet owner wants to teach them. Our lab breeder has a show bred bitch she picks up with.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I suggest you employ some commonsense and at least learn what the working breed you are interested in does when trained and in a 'proper job'. I would suggest that a dog that has been selectively bred for centuries to run flat out on the open moor with such a passion for hunting that it will keep going for hours at a time is not best suited to quiet country walks and lying beside the fireside in the evenings! Yes, there are successes and you will hear about them. What you won't hear about are the ones that take a one way trip to the vet because their owners are too ashamed to admit that they made a mistake.

Did I get a setter this time? No. Have I had setters before and know the challenges? Yes.

Did I do my research? Yes, thanks-I went and saw them working, I went to talk to breeders, I had conversations over the phone with other breeders. I spoke to more setter breeders than any other type of breeder and I still didnt buy one. So thanks for your assumptions.I spent months doing as much research as I could on all the breeds I was interested in-bought books, borrowed books, spoke to owners and gun dog trainers. How have I done this wrong?!

 

[ester]

I'm not actually sure Dryrot read the opening post at all!?!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I'm not actually sure Dryrot read the opening post at all!?!

who knows.

And actually, most of the breeders didnt have puppies to sell when I spoke to them-but being stupid as I am, that was obviously by luck rather than design.

 

[RunToEarth]

I'm not actually sure Dryrot read the opening post at all!?!

I’m actually sure she hasn’t, having read that rant!

I actually agree with a lot of what Dryrot has said looking in a broader context. Our keeper has just picked up a cracking little FT ESS bitch as the owners couldn’t cope with her, similarly our own ESS would not make good pets. However, lots of people do having working ESS as pets and manage perfectly well with them – as long as they are worked physically and mentally, they really do have the potential to manage just fine never stepping paw of a grouse moor.

The OP has the same breed as me, and I don’t doubt put in a serious amount of research beforehand. Now my working goldie does work game, but similarly she is a pet and a friend. I can say honestly she is as happy retrieving game and being a stick bitch out shooting as she is retrieving socks out of the laundry basket for me, she is fairly versatile and comes on a number of missions, the only thing I will draw the line with is dogging in, because I don’t want to ruin her. Whether I wanted a pet or a working animal, I would always choose a working bred golden over the show lines because I do not like how much bigger and heavier set they have become. For me, with a dog the size of a GR I would want them as light as possible because I hate to think of stressed joints.

 

[smja]

The only breeders that told me their breed wasnt suitable as all round family dog that we wanted, due to the one-person bond the dogs like to have, were the Welsh sheep dog breeders.

So are these breeders just biased?

No, they're not.

We have a working bred Welsh collie. He was sold to a pet home, and when we got him at 2 years old he had never been walked, no recall, bouncing off the walls, barking at every noise/new thing, really in-your-face.

Don't get me wrong, he's settled down brilliantly and we're a pet home too but it's taken years of consistent training and he still can't be trusted off-lead around livestock. He'll listen to other family members and is very friendly with everyone, but he considers himself my mum's dog and puts her above all others. When she's away he mopes.

I would not recommend one for an all-round family dog.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

No, they're not.

We have a working bred Welsh collie. He was sold to a pet home, and when we got him at 2 years old he had never been walked, no recall, bouncing off the walls, barking at every noise/new thing, really in-your-face.

Don't get me wrong, he's settled down brilliantly and we're a pet home too but it's taken years of consistent training and he still can't be trusted off-lead around livestock. He'll listen to other family members and is very friendly with everyone, but he considers himself my mum's dog and puts her above all others. When she's away he mopes.

I would not recommend one for an all-round family dog.

No, I had a beardie and a border collie before and would not have another. It was suggested to me that the Welsh sheep dogs (as opposed to BCs) were somewhat softer than the borders so thought I would make some enquiries. I didnt mean to imply in my post that the welsh sheep dog breeders were biased btw (wasnt sure if you took it like that-but I meant the breeders of working gun dogs, all of which said it somewhat depended on the lines but that they were better in temperament than show bred dogs and more trainable. Even those who weren't trying to sell me puppies . Reading it back, I wasn't very clear). I immediately respected their (sheep dog breeders) honesty and didnt take it any further.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm not actually sure Dryrot read the opening post at all!?!

I've read the opening post and the reply from Dry Rot. MoC asked questions which DR answered, I thought. I also thought that the points he made were of value. I didn't see them as a criticism of MoC or her thoughts.

I agree with the advice that MoC was given in that those breeds of dogs which are still kept for a work purpose, are generally of a more receptive mind than those which are bred for the show bench, however, if work bred dogs are to be kept as domestic pets and they're not going to be used for their purpose, then they will most probably need something to occupy their minds.

Specifically the question of whether the Welsh Sheepdog breeders were biased, then I suppose that they were, biased in the favour of the wannabe pet owner I'd suggest, in that they may well be better looking for a breed of dog which may not put so many demands upon those who aren't prepared. The work bred sheepdog, without an outlet for its energies, can be a nightmare for the ill prepared, as can GSDs, Working Spaniels, Foxhounds and just about most breeds.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . It was suggested to me that the Welsh sheep dogs (as opposed to BCs) were somewhat softer than the borders so thought I would make some enquiries. ……..

Accepting that Bearded Collies are a breed apart, wherever any breed of Collie and regardless of from where it's supposed type originates, there is no difference between any of them. Short-coat, long-coat, red-white, black-white or tricolour, they are in essence all the same dog. The Scots and the Welsh and the English and Irish too and for generations have used the dog upon their bitch which they think will best suite them and regardless of their area of origin. You wouldn't believe how many litters have been sired, en-route to Trials, in motorway service station car parks!

The KC has now accepted the Border Collie as an established breed, but in the serious Sheepdog world, no one takes them seriously!

Alec.

 

[ester]

She didn't mean the welsh sheep dog owners were bias though, quite the opposite in that they were the only ones that said that they weren't suitable for pet type homes. Conversely she meant that were the working-type breeders of all breeds other than the welsh sheep dog biased towards their own type by suggesting they would be better for pet homes than their show type alternatives.

I don't think suggesting that MoC employ some common sense and do some reading about the breed MoC is interested in was terribly helpful or contributing much to the discussion when MoC already states she did her research and has a GR.

I must be reading entirely different posts.

 

[MyBoyChe]

Ive got 2 ESS, both from the same breeder a year apart, and both working lines. They are pet dogs through and through and neither of them has ever caused me a moments worry. That said they live in the countryside with access to a fair sized garden, they are walked twice a day, off lead and in fields and woodland, both allowed to swim if they want to and rush about and work (for work, read put up the odd duck). Both have perfect recall, both are extremely sociable, biddable little dogs. I also have a JRT, my first terrier. He runs with the springers and is, I think, not sure whether he's a springer on little legs, he certainly isnt your typical anarchic terrier He is our lorry dog, comes out hacking with me and OH and is just the best at helping to cook up a breakfast in the lorry! I think, as with all things, common sense is the biggest factor here. If you buy a working breed, move it into an urban environment with little exercise or mental stimulation you are setting it up to fail. And yes I know thats an over simplification, and yes I know there will be exceptions, but you get the gist. I have always found the working bred lines easier to handle, but maybe thats because I understand what I need to do.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Accepting that Bearded Collies are a breed apart, wherever any breed of Collie and regardless of from where it's supposed type originates, there is no difference between any of them. Short-coat, long-coat, red-white, black-white or tricolour, they are in essence all the same dog. .

with respect Alec, the Welsh sheep dog breeders/enthusiasts do not accept their dogs are the same as Border Collies but are distinct in their way of working and even through DNA testing and I'm not about to argue with them. I agree though, that not many collies make well-adjusted family dogs.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Ive got 2 ESS, both from the same breeder a year apart, and both working lines. They are pet dogs through and through and neither of them has ever caused me a moments worry. That said they live in the countryside with access to a fair sized garden, they are walked twice a day, off lead and in fields and woodland, both allowed to swim if they want to and rush about and work (for work, read put up the odd duck). Both have perfect recall, both are extremely sociable, biddable little dogs. I also have a JRT, my first terrier. He runs with the springers and is, I think, not sure whether he's a springer on little legs, he certainly isnt your typical anarchic terrier He is our lorry dog, comes out hacking with me and OH and is just the best at helping to cook up a breakfast in the lorry! I think, as with all things, common sense is the biggest factor here. If you buy a working breed, move it into an urban environment with little exercise or mental stimulation you are setting it up to fail. And yes I know thats an over simplification, and yes I know there will be exceptions, but you get the gist. I have always found the working bred lines easier to handle, but maybe thats because I understand what I need to do.

thanks I like the ESS and my Goldie breeder works and trials his. He only breeds for himself though and none planned for the forseeable so it was good to talk to him about them. Most of any kind of dog going through rescues seem to go through due to lack of socialisation from what I can tell and many ESS in that situation seem to not be great with other dogs.

I have known some awesome JRTs (not mine)-really sound little dogs that were great companions (and yard dogs).

 

[MotherOfChickens]

She didn't mean the welsh sheep dog owners were bias though, quite the opposite in that they were the only ones that said that they weren't suitable for pet type homes. Conversely she meant that were the working-type breeders of all breeds other than the welsh sheep dog biased towards their own type by suggesting they would be better for pet homes than their show type alternatives.

I don't think suggesting that MoC employ some common sense and do some reading about the breed MoC is interested in was terribly helpful or contributing much to the discussion when MoC already states she did her research and has a GR.

I must be reading entirely different posts.

thank you ester. yes, that's the gist of it

 

[druid]

Some working lines of ESS are more likely to throw more reasonable, sedate types. Some are fire breathing dragons - I've had both, have two of the hot type now and they'd be miserable as pets. Game finding is everything to both of them. Agility is mildy entertaining at best. However, if they were raised differently as pets they might be different animals.

 

[blackcob]

I don't think suggesting that MoC employ some common sense and do some reading about the breed MoC is interested in was terribly helpful or contributing much to the discussion when MoC already states she did her research and has a GR.

I must be reading entirely different posts.

Same. Gawd, back in the day I brought home a six month old second hand Siberian husky, after only a casual few hours of research, and about the harshest thing anyone on AAD could come up with then was that I was in for a lot of exercise. Now you get a lecture for having actually done the homework?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Same. Gawd, back in the day I brought home a six month old second hand Siberian husky, after only a casual few hours of research, and about the harshest thing anyone on AAD could come up with then was that I was in for a lot of exercise. Now you get a lecture for having actually done the homework?

lol, thanks.
About 23 years ago I worked huskies for three seasons down in Thetford. I'd always wanted to do it and I spotted a van with huskies on at a vet practice in Newmarket. I took the number and gave them a ring. Loved them, turned down a free pair when she bred a litter-wasnt in a position for a horse then so knew I wasn't in the right place for a pair of huskies.Amazing dogs though, such a shame for them they got so popular.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Some working lines of ESS are more likely to throw more reasonable, sedate types. Some are fire breathing dragons - I've had both, have two of the hot type now and they'd be miserable as pets. Game finding is everything to both of them. Agility is mildy entertaining at best. However, if they were raised differently as pets they might be different animals.

thanks druid, your input is appreciated.

 

[blackcob]

Wild guess - Sally and Ali? If you're still in the area Thetford forest is now home to an annual national championship and will be hosting the IFSS European dryland championships this November.

Thankfully they are coming through the other side of the popularity surge now, KC registrations have halved and the numbers coming into the breed rescues seem to be stabilising rather than increasing.

 

[CorvusCorax]

A good breeder should be able to assess a less drivey puppy, certainly in my own breed, that would make a better pet than a worker.
Not every pup in the litter will make a podium or join the cops or win a trial or become a show champion. They all have to go somewhere.
I've seen a dog by the German working champion not be interested in chasing a ball and I've seen progeny of the German (world) show champion that I wouldn't look twice at walking down the street. Both made good pets though.
Some showlines are neurotic and some working lines are dead as doornails.
There are so many generalisations and it depends on how honest the breeder is and how competent, informed and realistic the buyer is.

 

[Karran]

I was dubious about taking on Mrs Spaniel, i'd seen far too many slightly deranged and bored pet spaniels with despairing owners.
The one sensible one i knew has a busy life as the mascot of my trainer. He is out visiting different yards all day and bosses them about but she admits she was the 6th(!!) owner by the time he was 11 months old and she tore her hair out over him until he settled.
If i'd have known Mrs Spaniel was from working lines I probably would have said no right from the start. After all I live in London and work fulltime and if i had really thought about it I'd have convinced myself we were the wrong home.
I think i got lucky though, I do agree that not all working dogs are livewires and some are rather chilled. She is sonewhere in the middle i think. She is a busy little dog but is happy to be on her own during the day and spend her time dozing. We quickly worked out that a minimum of 90 minutes a day was needed to keep her settled and really we both find it hard to cope if she hasn't had that every day as you can see her struggling with the pent up energy that sometimes comes out as a nipping whirling monster but it wasn't until we discovered flyball that she really sighed and relaxed into her role as a pet dog with a hobby.
I think having a working dog as a pet can be done but you have to put the work in by giving them some kind of outlet for their mind not just a few walks.
I am now in love with working cockers and would probably look for another eventually BUT they would have to have the right personality and i'd take the time to find that rather than rush into adopting again.

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

My working bred ESS were/are tons easier than the show/pet bred types I also have. They were a piece of cake to train, became cheeky at about 18 months and were restarted and were amazing. They're quite high prey drive and big dog is keen on birds, but omg, he's so easy-boring :redface3: compared to the others! Fabulous pets and I wouldn't ever get a pet bred/show type again. One of them is very 'hot' and would benefit from a job, clever little swine.

 

[druid]

thanks druid, your input is appreciated.

I'm guessing it's like the your Lusos - some of the lines must be bred more for cattle/work vs dressage etc? I do wonder if you took a top FtCH x FtCH drivey puppy but never showed it game would it be a different type of switched on? Maybe flyball or agility - if it hasn't ever seen game it doesn't know what it's missing sort of thing? Mine are retrieving cold game from 12 weeks old and go in the rabbit pen quite early so I'm probably intentionally switching on all that game drive.

Are you going to try working your Goldie?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Wild guess - Sally and Ali? If you're still in the area Thetford forest is now home to an annual national championship and will be hosting the IFSS European dryland championships this November.

Thankfully they are coming through the other side of the popularity surge now, KC registrations have halved and the numbers coming into the breed rescues seem to be stabilising rather than increasing.

no, happy to PM you who it was-doubt very much they are still going as that litter was to be their last.

I am in Scotland now-I actually would have a good space to work some huskies now-nice bit of forestry up the road. There's also a husky breeder who's a neighbour so I can go and get a fix. Not sure they would fit in with my cat and feathered friends. Glad the surge seems to be over. We have quite a few malamute breeders around and there's been two shot recently for attacking sheep

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I'm guessing it's like the your Lusos - some of the lines must be bred more for cattle/work vs dressage etc? I do wonder if you took a top FtCH x FtCH drivey puppy but never showed it game would it be a different type of switched on? Maybe flyball or agility - if it hasn't ever seen game it doesn't know what it's missing sort of thing? Mine are retrieving cold game from 12 weeks old and go in the rabbit pen quite early so I'm probably intentionally switching on all that game drive.

Are you going to try working your Goldie?

You get the very hot, bull working type of luso-Veiga for example (V was one). Whenever he saw cattle (and there were less than where I live now) he would almost fix them in a collie eye. Gingko is less hot,but he loves cattle and can be found staring at them lovingly for hours. Both are/were very bold and would round up/chase pretty much anything that gets in their paddock-from ducks to marauding dogs and small, fat ponies

I am tempted to try something different with him, whether that's working or having a go at agility I haven't decided yet.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

A good breeder should be able to assess a less drivey puppy, certainly in my own breed, that would make a better pet than a worker.
Not every pup in the litter will make a podium or join the cops or win a trial or become a show champion. They all have to go somewhere.
.

which is exactly what a few breeders said to me


Dont know what I will go for next, still exhausted from the last search lol. And it might be that I get that smooth collie I've been after and not another gun dog-the gun dogs are more accessible though!

 

[Clodagh]

I do wonder if you took a top FtCH x FtCH drivey puppy but never showed it game would it be a different type of switched on? Maybe flyball or agility - if it hasn't ever seen game it doesn't know what it's missing sort of thing?

My bitches sister is in a pet home, she does do flyball. She is obsessed with her ball and on a walk doesn't do any huntng at all, just spins and stares at you to throw the ball. If she comes for a walk here with our lot we don't take any balls and she plays with them, but she never puts her nose on the ground or shows any interest in sights or smells. (Labrador). She is a bit mainc and has that glazed stare when willing you to throw the ball, I imagine the glazed stare mine is giving it's retrieve.

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

My worker's pedigree is full of red. We never trained him to retrieve but when we started with the youngsters, he was keen, but only with dummies. He quarters naturally and retrieves cold game (or not so cold in the case of a massive live crow he carefully 'retrieved' and the water bird he crunched up by the river). He's very bird driven but not one of those dogs that needs a job.

I'd agree that some workers might be easier to train, although of the pet bred, one is 'easy', doesn't need a job, the other is high drive and can be hard work.

Good breeders tend to know their lines really well and I'd always say it's a good idea to ask their advice on which dog best suits your needs.