Working versus show

A friend bought a working cocker having researched the breed and has been challenged. It has worked out well for her family as she is the sort of person who will see something isn't working and try a different tack. She took her puppy out of normal training and went gun dog training instead. Now she has a super super dog whom I adore but compared to her laid back and easy flatcoat retriever, the working cocker was an entirely different ball game. A friend will at some point be looking for a lab again and wants a show X working strain with the hope of getting a slightly more active but not deranged dog!
 
I am not tempted by cockers at all-love them, but when they are someone elses! Certainly my goldie pup is the least manic (as in not manic at all) of the pups I see around regularly-a cockerpoo (not solely blaming the cocker side for that!) is the most manic but could be for a number of reasons tbf.

Its funny though, the more dogs of all ages I see about and the more I see in rescues or talk to different breed rescue societies, the less difficult I consider my setters with hindsight. Of course, this will probably get me more criticism as I am singularly incapable of keeping one properly, but they were confident, well socialised beasts that never hurt a fly, were bold without being unruly and I never lost one, had one go after stock or disappear.
 
Last edited:
I have a working-bred setter. I was warned that he would be a raving lunatic who needed hours and hours of exercise to keep him in his box.
This is his default...
13659175_10154719748235730_1127772707360793804_n.jpg
 
I did loads of research, I bought my dog fully knowing what I wanted to do with him and I still got a shock, to be honest.
But he would come at the very top end of the scale in terms of energy and drive and as such, I am glad he is with me. By contrast his litter sister has no drive at all. He and his bro must have got it all ;)
 
MotherOfChickens said:
No, I had a beardie and a border collie before and would not have another. It was suggested to me that the Welsh sheep dogs (as opposed to BCs) were somewhat softer than the borders so thought I would make some enquiries. I didnt mean to imply in my post that the welsh sheep dog breeders were biased btw (wasnt sure if you took it like that-but I meant the breeders of working gun dogs, all of which said it somewhat depended on the lines but that they were better in temperament than show bred dogs and more trainable. Even those who weren't trying to sell me puppies :p. Reading it back, I wasn't very clear). I immediately respected their (sheep dog breeders) honesty and didnt take it any further.
Click to expand...

Ah, apologies - I thought you meant the collie breeders being biased against pet homes!

To be fair, our collie wouldn't have cut it on the hillside, but there are non-working homes and then there are pet homes - not quite sure that wording is right, but you get the gist. I would suspect that many working-bred dogs could cope in the former, but not the latter - they need more exercise and stimuli than a show/pet bred dog, and likelier to exhibit 'unmanageable' behaviour if those needs aren't met.
 
I have just bred a litter of 7 German Shorthaired Pointer pups - 4 girls and 3 boys

Three of them are going to pet homes and the others to working homes (of course we are keeping one). My 3 adult GSPs are pure workers but they are also very settled and calm house dogs, that is from the training they received as puppies to be house dogs and obedient first and then they are allowed to start working. The bitch is now pretty much retired from the field although she still goes out the odd time and makes a mockery of the boys she's so bloody switched on!

I do kind of get the argument that working dogs should be given the opportunity to work - there really is no other way they find quite the same level of love for flyball or agility and once the switch is turned they live for hunting - it is just in there and is easy to bring out. I totally adore watching them hunt and point, it's quite mesmerising and they are just totally zoned in.

HOWEVER - if they don't get switched on in the first place and taught what to do it's not something they will miss, they will of course all be able to smell birds and might chase a rabbit or whatever but it's not the same as if they have gone through the whole hunting, pointing and retrieving process.

The ones from my litter that are going to pet homes are only going to pet homes that can give them an active life, a simple walk is not sufficient, these guys need to run! And then they are perfectly happy to lay upside down on the sofa or on the hearth rug, get cuddles and scratches the same as any other pet.
 
CorvusCorax said:
A good breeder should be able to assess a less drivey puppy, certainly in my own breed, that would make a better pet than a worker.
Not every pup in the litter will make a podium or join the cops or win a trial or become a show champion. They all have to go somewhere.
I've seen a dog by the German working champion not be interested in chasing a ball and I've seen progeny of the German (world) show champion that I wouldn't look twice at walking down the street. Both made good pets though.
Some showlines are neurotic and some working lines are dead as doornails.
There are so many generalisations and it depends on how honest the breeder is and how competent, informed and realistic the buyer is.
Click to expand...

Agree with the above. We breed an occasional litter of working sheepdog pups and only sell to working homes, but would possibly consider a non working home if they could assure us they knew what they were taking on and were prepared to rise to any possible challenges. We are more likely to give a dog to a pet home though when it is older and has shown to have no instinct to work sheep.

I have a show line GSD and a working line GSD and the difference between them in terms of temperament and drive is like night and day. As you would expect, the show line has less drive for work and energy in general, he has rather weak nerves and has had a number of health issues. My working line has strong nerves, a sociable and reliable temperament and bags of drive and energy. I will never own a show line again. Having said that, I would not expect an "average pet home" (dog left for long hours, two short walks to the park type of homes) to be able to cope with the drives and energy of a working line sheepdog or GSD. However, if a pet home wanted to do working trials, obedience, agility, IPO or some other dog sport, or they were hill walkers or just a very active family with some dog experience it can work with the right dog. As said above, a good breeder will know their lines and what sort of dogs they are hoping to produce, they will also be able to assess over time which pups are more likely to suit a non working (but experienced and active) home.
 
Auslander said:
I have a working-bred setter. I was warned that he would be a raving lunatic who needed hours and hours of exercise to keep him in his box.
This is his default...
13659175_10154719748235730_1127772707360793804_n.jpg
Click to expand...

This is my supposedly out of control collie that needs hours and hours of walking....





In bed with his turkey



And doing his bit to round up those pesky tennis balls




He was a rehome at one as the family we got him from didn't realise how much work a collie needs and I'm not talking about running.

What we have done with him and.my other collie was brain work. He got twenty minutes of lead walking a day for the first six months of having him and the rest if the time was spent working on manners and brain training in the house and garden.
At the end of the six months we started off lead work with a long line but always keeping his mental stimulation going.
He was never walked for more than an hour a day, never allowed to become more physically fit than mentally fit....I actually kept it the other way round. He loved learning new things or tricks and that is what has kept him sane and at ten he is as happy as Larry just pottering about running and sniffing and if he sees a sheep he runs the other way 😂 but apparently horses ate okay yo herd up 🤔 he understands leave so it's not a problem.

At some point I want a blue merle collie. No it won't be worked but I lead an active enough lifestyle and know from my previous two collies what needs need to me met for it to become a happy pet.

I think that is where alot of people go worms in getting a working-bred dog is they allow them to become too fit without the mental training and stimulation.

Though I agree some dogs just do not cope in a civilian life at all.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
I think that is where alot of people go worms in getting a working-bred dog is they allow them to become too fit without the mental training and stimulation.

Though I agree some dogs just do not cope in a civilian life at all.
Click to expand...

IK so agree with you their. Our dogs are so fit and yesterday they only had 4 easy walks and last night young lab was a complete PITA. She raced up and down the stairs all evening emptying the laundry basket and bringing me dirty socks and pants. The trouble is it makes me laugh so I sort of encourage it.
 
Clodagh said:
IK so agree with you their. Our dogs are so fit and yesterday they only had 4 easy walks and last night young lab was a complete PITA. She raced up and down the stairs all evening emptying the laundry basket and bringing me dirty socks and pants. The trouble is it makes me laugh so I sort of encourage it.
Click to expand...

Would have loved to see that. 😂

Ours also don't get walked if it's howling and bad rain with it. We just do lots of games round the house. He loves hide and seek.
He waits up on the top step, one of us goes and hides and the other tells him to go find and he has to find the human 😁 same with hiding toys, playing dead, learning a new trick etc it's all stimulating for them and will tire them out just as much as physical exercise.

P.s I'm so sorry about the bad spelling in my other post I was not overly with it when I wrote that 🙈
 
thanks for all of your answers and experiences :)

we went out for a walk today with a lovely woman who has worked various erm, more challenging breeds and who was able to give me some trainer recommendations and a couple of ideas for activities I hadn't even thought of which is quite exciting

Quarrie is doing great, just a lovely chap to have about and very trainable-although I appreciate this might change when hits teenagedom! Puppy classes start this week :D
 
Auslander said:
I have a working-bred setter. I was warned that he would be a raving lunatic who needed hours and hours of exercise to keep him in his box.
This is his default...
13659175_10154719748235730_1127772707360793804_n.jpg
Click to expand...

Pmsl! Much like my 'mad' springers!

Clodagh said:
IK so agree with you their. Our dogs are so fit and yesterday they only had 4 easy walks and last night young lab was a complete PITA. She raced up and down the stairs all evening emptying the laundry basket and bringing me dirty socks and pants. The trouble is it makes me laugh so I sort of encourage it.
Click to expand...

Same here, Zak makes me die laughing, so he carries on being naughty, parading round with shoes. I found three blasted Doc Martens on the lawn as I went to feed him. He was hungry, having been sick yesterday, so was making a point. Demon.
 
I haven't been back to this thread after my rant! I haven't dared as I could see what was coming!:D

I don't know the OP and don't really care what relationship she has with her dogs -- but I DO care passionately about working dogs. This is an open forum and hopefully threads are read by more than just the people who start them. I have spent at least fifty years of my life breeding, training, and working most breeds of working dogs, and in large numbers too, and it hurts to see how much they are so often misunderstood and mistreated.

I have one Czech GSD off working lines, pictures below that show two sides to his character I have another off Slovak x DDR lines that is totally different. Friends know the latter dog and suggested that they were going to advise an acquaintance looking for a GSD as a house pet to get one off similar breeding. I told them this might be a bad idea. One quiet word and my 'soppy pet' turned into a whirling dervish and flew at the nearest pony. I stopped her just as quickly, but I could see the shocked reaction on my freinds' faces. I am afraid there is an awful lot of ignorance about working dogs, even from those who should know, and I am not going to try to dispel that here except to say that if you want a pet, get one off proven PET lines. If you want a worker, be prepared for what you might get. Sometimes it does not take much to awaken what has been bred into them for centuries.

max_zpswumjhmxx.jpg


Max%20bite_zpsfhrllh1h.jpg
 
Very nice dog indeed Dry Rot. I have a mainly DDR working line GSD and he has converted a number of folk who thought the breed were all noisy and aggressive or spooky and nervy (with "slopey backs"). However, before they rush out and buy their own I do impress upon them the importance of training, exercise and mental stimulation - as well as the importance of boundaries and abundant company. They are not to be left for hours on end with a quick walk around the block in the evening and no training or play. My own dog spends all day outdoors with me on the farm, as well as having specific tracking/search training and helping with the sheep.
 
Of course you love your working dogs DR, that was never up for debate.
But the OP specifically said she had done her research on working breeds before selecting one and was specifically questioning if working line breeders were biased towards their own type.
you seemed to choose to ignore the first point entirely and go off on your own little tangent about people doing their research! :p
 
If we were to preclude every breed of working dog from the list of those which may make acceptable pet/companion dogs, then we'd end up mostly with the dregs of the toy breeds. Most breeds of dog were bred and they developed to, in some way, serve man. That's obvious, I'd have thought.

Those breeds which have been rather sidelined and to the show bench, but originated from working stock albeit years ago, will often display their ancestry, so just because the dogs have been bred for 20 + generations and for the show bench doesn't mean that they have had their genetic memories wiped clean because they may not have done. There are show-bred English Pointers, for instance, and out of every few litters, the odd dog will crop up which could, with guidance, become quite proficient. The same will apply to GSDs, Labradors, Collies and most other work-bred dogs. Obviously, the same can be said for those breeds which have been bred, historically, and for purposes which simply don't fit in with our 21st. century world. I'm thinking now of the breeds which are seriously aggressive and towards either humans or other dogs. DON'T tell me that they are all safe, because they aren't. Such dogs, 'generally' have a genetic makeup which heads them one way only, and even the 'soft' example has the genetic makeup to produce a maniac should it be bred with.

Now to those breeds which were designed and bred to work; 'Generally!' those that are bred to be compliant and when the owner accepts the dog's requirements, will prove to be more trainable (breed specific). I've known any numbers of work-bred dogs which haven't been used for their intended purpose, but which have made the most excellent companions. I suspect that the salient word is 'companion'. Take a work-bred dog, ignore it's instinct to work with a pack (even 1 to 1) and the owner is heading for disaster. 'Engage' with the dog by any other route, even one as simple as everyday companionship, and we mostly end up with a dog which is a pleasure to own.

If we keep a work-bred dog and we somehow expect it to fit in with our lives, and without any form of engagement and if we ignore the simple requirements for which many/most dogs are begging, then we're on a hiding to nothing.

The list of successful owners, known personally to me, goes on and on and strangely none who would make any claims to being 'dog trainers'; A friend who has 2 GSPs, they loaf about her yard, they go to the pub with her, they live as part of the family and they would never even think about taking themselves off and to go hunting. Others with collies and terriers, one with a cracking and work-bred GSD, and my own collies when I lived alone had the freedom to go off and create chaos with sheep which were the other side of an easily negotiated fence, and because they and I were as one, they never left the home unless it was with me, even though they had the freedom to do so,

Generally, work-bred dogs are more compliant (breed specific!), and almost always the easiest trained, providing that we understand their needs.

Alec.

ps and as a footnote, none of the above applies to hounds because they rarely work 1-2-1!
 
I am sure I read a scientific study (somewhere, but of course I can't find it now!) that showed working ability and drives were often lost within just three generations of not being selectively bred for. Of course, there will be the exception to the rule and there are also some breeds (especially in the HPR sector) that are still bred for working ability AND show.

I think it comes down to research. Research breeds you are interested in, be honest with yourself about what you can provide in terms of companionship, exercise and training, attend shows/working events and speak to breeders and owners of the dogs you admire first-hand. Find out what makes that breed tick and consider whether you would be able to provide an outlet for the inherent drives and instincts (whether that be what the dog was bred for, or a substitute). Once a breeder is found that ticks all the boxes (generally one who breeds for drive (if a working line), health & temperament) then try to speak to the owners of other dogs bred by your preferred breeder and meet the breeder's adult dogs before even looking at a litter of pup (who can resist those cute puppy eyes!). A good breeder will know their own lines and can even steer you towards a pup that is most suited to you and the life you can provide.

There must be many working line dogs happily living in active family homes, but equally there are a depressing amount who are given up because their families didn't do enough research and weren't prepared for the adolescent or adult dog they got and just fell for the cute puppy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top