Working vs Show/Pet Lines

AmyMay

AmyMay

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I met a guy out walking today with two beautiful black labs, whose discipline left me seriously impressed - even the 8 month old didn’t take her eyes off him. One word of command, and they did it. They’re both working gun dogs.

Obviously this guy knows what he’s doing, and could probably train anything. But it did get me thinking. Most labs I meet are in pet homes and presumably not working lines. Quite a few of them are hyper. The dogs I met today were calm and serene.

Is it just about trading (well I sort of know that it is....), or the working lines generally calmer??
 
A bit of both. In GSP's show lines are supposed to be softer & easier pets. I prefer good old fashioned German lines as i find they have better work ethic & drive, but they can occasionally be a bit more challenging as pets (but worth it).
 
Essay incoming lol.

In my experience the working lines are not 'calmer' at all, in any breed, but they are more work focused/and better trained (as a generalisation) and as all work comes from the handler they will be more attuned to them. My dogs know all good things (companionship, food, toys, play, exercise, sofa time etc) come from me. If you don't give them something to do then yes, they will wreak havoc.
The dogs that are hyper probably aren't getting enough stimulation as it is and I think a lot of people are just 'there in the background' of their dog's lives and vice versa. Everything else is more exciting than boring humans.
**As a generalisation**, I find the showline dogs in my own breed can't focus for as long on 'anything' - handler, food, ball, etc - they just seem to be a bit scattier. It's like the drive is there but the brains are not, almost. Showline dogs have as much energy, but not as much focus, if that makes sense.

Maybe a side topic but I get a LOT of people wanting to prance around the field and do heelwork or agility when the dog is not interested in them or focused on them generally and they wonder why the dog that does it all at home/in the back garden won't do anything at class/with distractions.
You can't teach a dog ANYTHING unless it is into you/engaged with you (anywhere) and I think it is a huge piece of the training puzzle which a lot of people miss out on. Nobody want to spend an hour just walking around and praising the dog or feeding it whenever it looks in their general direction, it may be boring but if you haven't got engagement, you haven't got anything as far as training goes in my opinion.

LOADS of people approach me and tell me how well behaved my dogs are. The older one is one of the trickiest dogs I have ever met, he would have been PTS in a pet home or a lot of working homes TBH, not many people would have stuck it out. He's repaid my patience and stubborn-ness a thousand times over. If you saw him in the park you would think he was an easy dog, but he isn't.
The younger one has only been with me for under a year, about four months after I got him I was at a big event and was waiting in a line and forgot I'd left something in the van, someone else offered to hold him while I went back to the car park and when I got back, I was told he wouldn't even hold his ball, he just dropped it stood and looked for me the whole time I was gone and completely ignored the guy holding him. Do I think it was because he lurved me so much or because I am the one who provides all the cool stuff in his life, who knows!!
 
Working labs are much harder work than people expect. Labs are perceived as easy dogs (and they are, compared to many breeds) but the working ones are bred to work all day and therefore will be hyper and badly behaved if they are not doing enough of what they are bred to do - or a suitable alternative.
I have never tried to train a show bred lab, but many people do work them. The lady that Tawny came from had one show one, who did an adequate days work by many standards, but as CC said, she lacked the mental strength to go on, all day, day after day.
Of our three Tawny is much the hardest work and was the hardest to train, she is purely trials bred and missed out a lot on the cuddly dog genes. She is very rewarding though, and the most faithful dog I have ever known.
 
People who don’t own my breed are forever saying how hard they are and how much more difficult/hyper working lines are. Brig was working lines and the easiest dog I’ve ever come across. He was extremely trainable, incredibly well-behaved, piece of cake.

A little bit like CC, the youngsters are trained, constantly. In the park, people have stopped to admire and tell us how well-behaved/trained they are and asked how we’ve done it. They look easy. Zak is not, he’s the type who would have been re-homed by someone else. We’re lucky in that we can dedicate a lot of time to the dogs and we were forced into the constant training once we realised Zak needs occupying. We’ve gone from epic woods walks to focused training sessions. It’s not how I envisaged our walks, but it’s necessary.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Nobody want to spend an hour just walking around and praising the dog or feeding it whenever it looks in their general direction, it may be boring but if you haven't got engagement, you haven't got anything as far as training goes in my opinion.
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This is the crucial part of training that I've missed out, I'd didn't know how to achieve engagement. One of the trainers I follow always says that the most crucial thing is structured walks, but until you just posted the above, I didn't understand what he meant. Hopefully it's not too late to start. When we go out, Juno isn't interested in anything to do with me, all she wants to do is be let off and run, or play with other dogs, so I'm going to have to work hard on this.
 
I've had my younger dog for eight months and on at least one daily walk I still carry a full meal allowance, which he gets bits of for checking in with me, dropping a stick if I tell him to, leaving something if I tell him to etc. It's easier to instil from day one, but he was used to being fed from the hand. If it's freedom your dog wants, they can work for that too.
 
Cinnamontoast said:
. It’s not how I envisaged our walks, but it’s necessary.
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Off topic - sorry AM! - but I do like the labs off switch, depending on what clothes I put on depends on their energy levels. That was why the spanner was not for me - I couldn't have a dog I couldn't walk, just for the pleasure of it.
 
Our working black lab is always very active and quite shy of other dogs until she knows them, then she is fine. When she is working though, she is so focused and keen that she takes no notice of other dogs, she has an excellent nose and just wants to get on with things. At home she is a loving sofa dog!
 
JennBags said:
This is the crucial part of training that I've missed out, I'd didn't know how to achieve engagement. One of the trainers I follow always says that the most crucial thing is structured walks, but until you just posted the above, I didn't understand what he meant. Hopefully it's not too late to start. When we go out, Juno isn't interested in anything to do with me, all she wants to do is be let off and run, or play with other dogs, so I'm going to have to work hard on this.
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I think it was Susan Garrett that explained it as depositing funds into the behaviour account, which I quite like as an analogy. On an average 30-40 minute walk, even if only 5 minutes of that is spent actively engaging with the dog, if you reward for every check-in, recall, leave that, this way, watch me etc. in those 5 minutes that's potentially 15-25 positive 'transactions'. The more distractions you start to add in, the more the transactions are worth. Any time your request is ignored (particularly recall) you lose a chunk and have to build the bank back up before progressing further with introducing distractions.

I think that was the gist of it, probably doesn't help to think of it in quite such rigid terms but the concept is helpful. I am currently priming the bank with a puppy and it's relentless but the funds are stacking up (mostly!) :p
 
Clodagh said:
Off topic - sorry AM! - but I do like the labs off switch, depending on what clothes I put on depends on their energy levels. That was why the spanner was not for me - I couldn't have a dog I couldn't walk, just for the pleasure of it.
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I can just walk with Bear, he is like Brig but far more energetic. Brig would check in, rarely be out of sight. Bear checks in but is 100mph, he motorbikes round and is sometimes out of sight, not an issue when I can hear him crashing through the undergrowth 😏 He will reliably come back although has occasionally buggered off after a muntjac. He’s always come back bar the time he was with Zak. I miss the nice woods walks which were also limited by Brig not being able to do too much.

I’m going to reinstitute woods walks this summer. The OH is worried about the injury potential given Bear’s speed!
 
Quarrie wasn't quite the easy option that I initially hoped for lol. He's very high energy, high drive, athletic and very, very smart. He'll be 3 in May and he's a super dog-very much my dog and easy to have around. It took a lot of work, lots of engagement, lots of impulse control training and importantly, adding in stuff he was bred to do. He and the OH get on very well but he's very much my dog and looks to me for everything-whatever we try he is so into it, just wish I had discovered them 30 years ago.
 
Not labs but my pair are from working lines, they’re anything but easy and their prey drive is insane at times BUT that drive with an outlet makes them fab ‘sport’ dogs and they have been easier to train than show bred sighthounds friends have.....but how much is me vs. their handlers I don’t know.
 
My lab is from show lines, she's very calm, as was her predecessor from the same breeder.
They show to a high level, however all the dogs live in the home and are much loved household pets.
However this is one of the reasons I picked and stick with this breeder.
 
Mrs Spaniel is working lines, although a fairly laid back spaniel. I am lucky in that our walks are chilled daydreaming ambles but I had to put the effort in at the beginning to get that!
Now she mooches about following her nose but at most only 2 or 3 metres away and often comes back to check in.
I think I got very lucky all things considered!
 
My trials bred rehome spaniel is totally incomparible to my last show bred one I had from 7 weeks as you can imagine! The show one wasn’t easy to train- he just couldn’t be bothered to do much! But- he was naturally very easy to live with and had a super temperament. My current one puts his full heart into everything but needs ‘working’ all the time he is off lead, and even then careful reading of body language and suitable areas. He’s 99% relaxed in the house but if you get into a routine he gets very over excited about that! He’s aloof with strangers and other dogs. He’s exceptional with other dogs if they’re aggressive- he doesn’t even notice them!

IME 6 month old guide dog lab and labx puppies are totally wild! It’s amazing how they turn them around.
 
My year old border collie is show line bred. I was very careful in selecting the breeder. Similar to what CC said, he has all the drive but less of the natural instinct. So he knows he wants to chase but not necessarily to herd (although that can also be said of many workers I guess). He is now incredibly easy to have around in the house, at work or out in shops/cafes etc. He’s very friendly and relaxed with people. Likes playing but not toy obsessed.

My working line collie was a more nervous, sharp dog, stubborn but more oriented to stay near vs chase a bird into the distance. Brilliant with the family but prone to snap at others. Absolutely toy obsessed.

But I can’t say it’s show vs work that’s responsible for the differences. My show bred was born into a household to a bitch who was a very cuddly pet. Working dog was bred on a farm and kept in a stable to a bitch who was rescued from bad abuse. The bitches wariness of men and strangers seemed to have strongly imprinted on my dog.

Then the training is different. My parents brought up the working line and were more hard line, plenty of negative punishment vs positive reinforcement. The dog was very obedient and loyal, but I also think it made her more fearful. My mum says now she wished she had known other ways. My showline we have used mostly positive reinforcement and I think that helps in his laid back friendly approach to everyone he meets. We are still making plenty of mistakes and forget to put the work in at times so he doesn’t always feel the need to check in with us, but we are tryingas hard as we can and so far in most circumstances have a nice, well mannered, well rounded young dog. ...I just can’t let him off lead when out and about right now as impulse control and desire to be with his own humans needs more work.
 
I know that my grans spaniel was a show spaniel. She was the most easy going, laid back spaniel I have ever met! However I havd a working spaniel who is loopy if the balance of exercise and rest is not correct.
 
I have a show line cocker spaniel and went for him as i thought he would be calmer than a working type. He is calm in the home and such gentle nature but he has never been easy to train. Up until a year old he was a nightmare. He's just coming 2 now and everything is starting to click. I've had to put a hell of a lot of work into him although he point blank refuses to retrieve (despite visiting various trainers) so we now concentrate on obedience and agility classes.

I also do what a poster said above and I always carry food as a reward for checking in, recalling etc and its made a huge difference as he always has me in sight even when he's off in the undergrowth. We live on the edge of Thetford forest so there's a LOT of woodland walking for us to do, were still exploring :) I did smile a little the other day when a muntjac pottered out in front of us and he went to chase it, I did my recall whistle and he came straight back to me and heeled until I told him he could run on. Bless him, its days like that which make the hard work worth it.

On the other hand, my second dog is a x breed (Jack Russell x Springer) and she is the easiest thing to train ! She's at the spaniels level at just 6 months old (not agility obviously) but she loves to recall too.
 
I have a Working Cocker trialling lines (although I have no intention of that!), he's a funny little thing, very sensitive but very high drive once he hits scent, his body launguage will change and he goes up about 6 gears!! I don't let him run around doing his own thing though, and he's not allowed out of sight - he'd go self employed pretty quickly...he's a lovely dog to have around the house and has an off switch, but I think that's because he's had training and structure. We had a pub walk the other day and he just lay under the table, unlike many other dogs barking, jumping up on tables and not settling, I was pretty pleased with him, you wouldn't know he was there! Hoping to get him out on the shooting field next season now he's older, we did a walked up shoot training day not long ago and that made him grow up, once he settled he was super and he had a super stop on a rabbit he flushed last week! And judging by the way he sat on his bum when the bird scarers went off on our walk today and he looked to the sky for falling birds I think we are ready for the plunge!
 
My brother has a Belgian Malinios. It’s actually my brothers first dog, but he did his research and his homework, enlisted the help of a trainer from day one and she is the most intelligent and obedient dog. In the wrong hands, a dog like her would be a nightmare. I have much more experience with dogs than my brother but I certainly wouldn’t get a Mali because I simply couldn’t put that level of training in.
She goes to different classes and does different activities, plus goes on several 5 mile runs a week and is walked 3 times a day.

My dogs in comparison are pets. Both crossbreeds, walked twice a day, both times off lead for a good run, but fundamentally they are happy to laze about the house in between!
 
I have had a show line GSD as well as working lines and the working lines have been higher energy, drive and focus and needed more to do to be kept occupied. However they are more stable and strong nerved than my show line. The working lines suit my lifestyle and level of activity.

Our border collies have all been from working lines and we wouldn't even contemplate a show line for work tbh. Some of ours would probably be ok in an active pet home whereas others live for, and are hard wired, for work and so would be a nightmare in most pet homes, especially a home that wouldn't find a suitable outlet for their instincts and drive.
 
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