Workshy horses feet and confo, what do you think?

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stencilface

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Following my post yesterday in the TR I thought I would post the pics in here as they are a bit more relevant for this section.

So here goes
General confo shot
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Front feet
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LF (the one with tendonitis) - Farrier has seen been and evened this up and reshod it, unfortunately as he was early (how inconvenient lol) I missed him so didn't get to ask about longer heels on the shoes, so will have to wait til the vet next week to ask that.
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Hinds
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LH (the one with PSD in 2011 - hopefully now fully rehabbed!) This fetlock/pastern has alway had an element of wonkiness about it imho, and last year when he was unshod behind for a couple of months the hoof developed a flare to the inside, and the wall on the outside of the hoof angled to the inside too - which was interesting to see, whether it was counterbalancing the wonkiness in the pastern?
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Another interesting side effect of the box rest has been a swollen sheath, he's had a course of ABs for it, which got rid of some of the swelling, but there seems to be still a hard oedema left, which he is sore about you touching (coudl be causing the unlevelness/unhappiness behind). Vet is a bit stumped (no discharge etc) and we are hoping with more paddock rest it will dissipate itself, still its been there for 3 months now :redface3: Hopefully the acupuncture booked for 7th sept might also help with this

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If your horse was mine I would be taking all his shoes off and seeing what direction he wants his feet to grow. It is not unusual for horses which are not perfectly straight in their conformation to pull tendons if they are shod in a manner which looks balanced to a farrier but with which the horse does not agree.

You already have evidence of that on one leg. I'd let him show you what he really wants from his feet.

I'd also say that if your farrier has now shod him 'balanced' again on that left hind, and taken away the change of angle that he made clear to you that he wanted, then I would not put any money on the injury to that leg not recurring if you manage to get him back in work.

As a bonus, if you allow him to tell you how he wants his feet to be, you might even find that he is no longer 'workshy' at all. Temperament changes are often a side effect of a barefoot rehab.
 
I only call him workshy as he seems lame all the time! :)

I do feel that he will level any wonkiness in his legs by unlevelling his feet iykwim, but when I have tried to explain this to people in the past they look at me like I am barking mad. But whatever I am doing in his management is obviously not working as I can't keep him sound so something has to give surely? I will talk to my vet next week, and hopefully I can get something constructive from him.

Maybe he can have another couple of weeks getting used to no shoes behind and then I will get the fronts taken off and see what happens, with his current foot confo, would you think it would be ok just to take them off with no remedial work first? I can see they are not necessarily perfect, but to my (average eye!) they don't look too bad :)
 
I read your other post and this is a difficult area but if he where mine I would be removing the shoes starting a barefoot rehab programme and seeing what happens .if you can find a good trimmer to advise you that's even better I would never have got through with out mine and the advice on here.
 
I couldn't see all your photos when I posted above. Now I have seen that he is toe out in front as well as not straight behind I would urge you even more to get his shoes off.

He also has bullnosed hinds unless the photos are deceptive. That is frequently symptomatic of a horse which has problems dealing with carbohydrates, as is, I believe, a swollen sheath.

I would have your horse tested for insulin resistance and Equine Metabolic Syndrome, and meanwhile put him on a very low sugar and high fibre diet if he is not already on one.
 
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To that end (much as it will pain our farrier of 30 years....) can I ask if anyone can recommend a barefoot trimmer in Yorkshire, North or west would be closer. Re diet for that, he's currently on grass nuts with micronised linseed and seems to have good solid feet (from what I know anyway!) as thats a fairly natural diet, is there anything else that should be in there?

Thanks CPT - again I will talk the vet about that before his visit next week. Is the bullnose the shape of the heel? I think his diet is low sugar, aside from hard feed above he is on hay with a small amount of sweet wrapper hay (not haylage) to keep his interest (which will be knocked off as soon as he is turned out more)

Reading a little on insulin resistance and EMS, he is pretty intolerant to oats - was pretty loopy when stabled on oat straw, and although has not suffered from fatty deposits or laminitis, he is generally laid back/lethargic and lives off fresh air, and bloats easily on good grass. And our good grass, isn't even that good, far more meadowy than pasture. In fact I'm pleased I've managed to keep him this slim on box rest.
 
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Answering your questions above. For support in your view that he will grow a foot which matches the wonkiness in his legs look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com and you will see some wonderful examples of horses which are lame when shod 'properly' and sound when allowed to grow wierdly wonky feet.

No remedial shoeing will produce a result as quickly or as well as removing his shoes. Get his diet right, find a trimmer (can be a farrier, but one who will not try and impose his idea of perfect angles on the horse), and then see what he does for himself.
 
Stencilface said:
To that end (much as it will pain our farrier of 30 years....) can I ask if anyone can recommend a barefoot trimmer in Yorkshire, North or west would be closer. Re diet for that, he's currently on grass nuts with micronised linseed and seems to have good solid feet (from what I know anyway!) as thats a fairly natural diet, is there anything else that should be in there?
Click to expand...

It's a good start, but it's often what shouldn't be in there as much as what should. Horses with bullnose feet usually need their access to grass fairly heavily restricted. I have one in a muzzle overnight at the moment and on hayage during the day.

We're also finding that there is an excess of iron and/or manganese and/or molybdenum in most UK grazing. That will prevent the absorption of copper, and result in problems with insulin usage, with bullnose feet one of the symptoms.

Some people test their grazing and forage, but most simply put their horses on one of the two specially low iron/ high copper supplements available at the moment. Progressive Earth Pro Hoof is sold on eBay. Forage Plus balancer is sold by forageplus.co.uk

Can't help with a trimmer, sorry.
 
Take a look at the photo of the shod foot from the back. Get a piece of paper and mark on it the distance between the top of the shoe and the bump at the bottom of the coronet band. I reckon that foot has an imbalance at the heel in the order of 15-20% I am not surprised that he is pulling tendons. If you get that shoe off, he will put that balance right. It's quite possible you'll end up with a horse who is nowhere near as toe out as he is in shoes.
 
his LH reminded me very much of dressagelove's boys hind.

SF the bullnosed refers to the convex profile of the front of the hoof. Frank was bullnosed all round before we took his shoes off (and had flat pedal bones in front - didn't x-ray hinds) he has nice straight feet now though ;). - He is cushings negative, not tested for anything else and is fine on oats but as a native has grazing quite restricted regardless. We tested grazing as we make hay from it too and supplement to that but also know people who use the pre made preps.

I think given his injury history I would give your lad a chance with his shoes off and see what he can manage for himself.
 
CPT - he has been toe out since I got him, but yes maybe now with ageing etc his limbs can't take the strain of straight feet on wonky legs- they were much worse when I first got him!

The bullnosed ness is weird then, because shod I swear its not that noticeable, but it certainly is without shoes :eek3:

Looking at the balancers (being tight!) the pro-hoof looks like a better deal if the amount for £94 lasts for 6 months - providing he will eat it, is it palatable enough, esp if I can disguise it with tasty linseed? I realise I will be saving money on shoeing, but still!
 
SF the pro hoof people are lovely and really helpful, am sure they would send you a sample (they have done for me in the past) - although it took a while to get Frank eating everything he should be and even then he won't touch standard salt at all! ..or brewers yeast :p.

I think shoes can make some of the lines less obvious which is why things like the bull nosedness are more so without the shoes on.. I think F was the same I'll see if I can find some pics.
 
I'd remove shoes, rest him up for 4 months, get the feet sorted in the meantime while he's off work and slowly bring back to work after winter.

Nothing to loose, better than having on and off lameness issues, you might be suprised how sound he'll be by next spring/summer.
 
I have a horse with imbalances, who I was told must have shoes -with a wide webbed heel and he must be shod to land level, the more this was done the lamer he went, he had a check ligament injury that prompted the vet. I lost my patience with the vet at the last visit after he said he was lamer - had inflammation of the coffin joints - it was probably caused by the shoes but he needed to get used to it. I went home took his shoes off - initially had a nightmare - but now he is sound and recently won a couple of dressage competitions and the small hunter class at a local agricultural show beating a horse just qualified for the Royal international - best thing I did -but completely against all the 'professional' advice.
I am in Harrogate and do have a trimmer if you can't find one PM me.
good luck with whatever you decide
 
Thankyou all so much for the replies, I know you are all 'crazies on the Internet' but I feel I have some reassurance on whipping his shoes off and letting him be. Maybe the first six years with me being shod he was young enough, and I was lucky enough to get away with it. Now something has to change or I'm going to to go mad. I'm not a bad, negligent owner, and fingers crossed these injuries are more than bad luck and do all have an underlying cause, namely shoes!

I will be getting the shoes off, contacting pro hoof, trying to barefoot rehab over winter using our gravel track for him to walk on and fingers crossed come spring I can do a positive post! I will also be contacting you mjcssjw2 for a barefoot trimmer just so I have something to go on.

Thankyou all again, feeling a bit less teary today!! :)
 
SF, I understand completely how you feel, I pm'd CPT a lot, she very patiently put up with me LOL .
It really is difficult to know what to do, I just did what I believed what the right thing for better or for worse!
Interestingly the ligament hasn't given a days trouble since, the grass has though - that caused havoc.
He had the bullnosed hooves too.
 
We've definitely all needed a bit of a helping hand at the start - and if you're anything like me you do worry about them quite a bit in the early days!

And who are you calling crazies on the internet- you're the one doing a PhD and having a baby! :p
 
Fronts are a bit of a disaster area aren't they.

Lots of good advice on here - overall the hinds aren't bad except for the bullnosing and as others have said with the swollen sheath that means you need to look at diet. He's not fat but he's not skinny either so you have a fair bit to play with.

Only thing I'd add is if you get the fronts off - get into those central sulci with some gauze and povidone or hibiscrub and keep them really clean. That will do more for his comfort than you can imagine. If he's uncomfortable there then that's not going to make it easy.
 
Ester - pah, phd stress (ok only just finished first year) is a doddle in comparison to the 'will my horse be lame today' saga. And a baby, well they're only small right, how much trouble can they be?! :p

Brucea - what's the disaster area of the fronts? I know he's toe out, but are you talking about the feet? I know he's not skinny, and muscled up on current weight would be great for him, the saggy round the edges look is not good! I will give his feet a wash today and then do them regularly once his shoes are off.

Here's a side on pic of his rf - so pull it apart!
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There is UKNCHP

http://www.uknhcp.org.uk/uknhcpqualifiedpractitioners.html

and epauk

http://www.epauk.org/findep.php

and daep

http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/United_Kingdom.html


and AANCHP which that link claims to have attended but she doesn't appear on the list here so I would maybe ask and check http://www.aanhcp.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141&Itemid=122

as organisations/qualifications

Mine is a UKNCHP trained trimmer (I spoke to a couple of different ones/got a couple of recommendations before choosing)- I think most of them are quite tame ;). It might also be worth noting that there are some insurance cover issues with using a trimmer. ie petplan would pay for Frank to be trimmed by a trimmer as treatment but struggled to get their heads round that as a regular thing :p. As his hooves are excluded anyway I decided we would carry on regardless ;) - but I do think there would be more argument against the insurance companies if you were using someone with qualifications.
 
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Thanks,I think that was why I was getting confused as there seemed to be so many! Will have to have a look around for some local ones and ask around people I know who are shoeless. :)

Norman was excessively grumpy this morning being brushed, attempting to kick and bite me, not something he has ever done before :( So he's either getting cranky still being in at night, or the sheath soreness extends further (as he was worse over his sides/flanks than he was on his neck) I settled for a stroke all over instead which he didn't mind. Will see if being out today alleviates it though. Poor ned.
 
Hi I removed my horses shoes following guidance on here and have never looked back. We had a lot of intermittent lameness and abscesses for about a year.

Since his shoes have been off he has never been lame or had an abscess. I would say look at some hoof boots I don't think I would have managed without them (still hack out in them now) I swear by the easyboot gloves. Also agree re the balancer, and also be aware for any thrush lurking in those contracted front heels he has ( I also had this problem and didn't realise for some time)

There is a good barefoot forum and they have a section on second hand hoof boots http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php or try ebay/preloved.

look forward to following your progress, it's not easy but stick with it and it will be worth it in the long run
 
Thanks, I hibiscrubbed all his feet today so will probably do a mix of that and hydrogen peroxide up until and after he has those shoes off. He seems fine on his hind ones so far, not noticeably footy (unless bilaterally and I've missed it!) and still striding out.

He escaped out of his paddock today so will be getting a more proper sized small paddock tmrw as although he gets a haynet and there's plenty of green stuff left, it's obviously not enough and is unpalatable :)
 
Hello, i just wanted to add. Ive got a pony with VERY wonkey legs. I got him when he was 4 years old and shod him on the front, we had loads of issues and the shoes come off a year later (after several abscesses) I wanted to post this as he's now 17 years old and ive never had any other issues due to his 'interesting conformation' he really is wonkey. He's got one hind leg that is bent inwards towards his other hind, he's sooo close behind his hooves somethings rub together. Having said that, we'd done everything together (jumping, dressage, long distance, riding holidays everything)

He does have interesting hooves to match!!
 
SF with Frank I found that he did go footy a couple of months in and then we employed front boots for a while (and have perfected the art of standing in buckets of milton ;) ). The only other noticeable thing is that when he was footy and then when he started to use muscles a bit differently he did need to see his personal masseuse a bit more frequently as he made himself ache a bit so that's worth keeping an eye on... this was while we were still on walking stage which I probably did for longer than necessary (Shoes off March and I think we cantered in Septemberish- cant remember when trot started!).
 
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