Worm count result......

Actually having reviewed a number of papers on the subject, there have of course been incidences of resistance to Ivermectin documented ( papers from the USA and Oz) however a larger scale study published last year showed very low levels of resistance in a large population. The issue really is that there WILL be resistance to these wormers (as is currently seen in ruminants and humans) if we continue to use them in the fashion that we have been over the past couple of decades. There are no new anthelmintics and anyway,drug development is a very slow process, so smart usage of wormers is the key.
 
So worm count and judicious use, say twice a year, of an all covering wormer, is best. I wish YOs would see this but the profit margin of selling on wormers seems to be more important. :(
 
glenruby said:
Actually having reviewed a number of papers on the subject, there have of course been incidences of resistance to Ivermectin documented ( papers from the USA and Oz) however a larger scale study published last year showed very low levels of resistance in a large population. The issue really is that there WILL be resistance to these wormers (as is currently seen in ruminants and humans) if we continue to use them in the fashion that we have been over the past couple of decades. There are no new anthelmintics and anyway,drug development is a very slow process, so smart usage of wormers is the key.
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Where have you seen these papers - can you give us links to them? I did see the one on the Texas stud but the information seemed a bit confusing in that it reckoned that the foals did not respond to the wormer until they were around 8 months of age. When I first got Serenity - she was 6months - I wormed her with Ivermectin/Praziquontal and was presented with a mega mass of round worm, bots, tape and pin worms. She had no red worm - these she picked up a few months later when I moved her to another property.

My concern with people reducing their level of worming is this

Anyone who goes out to shows, hunts, Pony Club or Riding Club and allows their horse to graze - even just a quick pick leaves their horse open to picking up worms. This happened recently to a friend who is meticulous in her paddock maintenance - her daughter went away to camp her pony was yarded in yards that had been used by others, she goes to shows a lot where her pony will graze when tied to the trailer. She had blood tests done and the results were horrific. No wonder the pony was behaving in a jaded manner.

What will now eventuate is that some horses will end becoming unwell before they get wormed - I remember the original Genesis road show - in the mid 70's when Merc went around the UK to show off the new Ivomec wormer. Racehorses collapsing and dying from anuerisms caused by migrating redworm,

I personally will continue to worm my horses regularly to kill off and reduce the parasite population both in and around my horses. I'm not prepared to contaminate my pasture with eggs and larvae because its not 'the time of year' to worm for bots, once their are eggs their are bots - and this applies to other worms too.
 
Anyone thinking that you simply stop worming or use fewer doses is missing the point. Anyone thinking that you simply dose regularly all year is also missing the point.

Of course horses pick up worms as they go out to visit places. The point is that you are monitoring with tests, treating any horses that need it but not others, treating for worms not covered by the test.

Horses are FAR MORE LIKELY to develop a worm problem where they are dosed and not monitored. Worms WILL become resistant to drugs with over worming.
Then what will you do? Nothing effective left to treat a wormy horse? This is the future if we don't do something about it NOW as Glenruby states above.

We all need to treat encysted worms in our horses. But there are only two drugs licenced. 5 day Panacur Guard has widespread worm resistance now. Equest already has suspect resistance coming along with reduced egg reappearance times in some horses. We are stuffed if this gets worse which it will if people continue with using it 4 times a year.

I say again ask your worming questions where they will get SENSIBLE and KNOWLEDGEABLE answers.
 
Panacur Guard is fenbendazole which has been around since I was a kid - so at least 50 years!

We are constantly told that parasites are showing resistance but WHERE do we see the papers - I certainly can't find any!

That have used horses and equine parasites as the subjects.

I remember in late 70's being told that there were resistant parasites to Ivomec - it had only been on the market a few years.

These are often spread around by rival manufacturing companies. I work with what I see and the length of the basic life cycle of each parasite - which in some cases is not long.
 
Believe me Tnavas we see lots of evidence of resistance in our daily work (Westgate Labs). 5 day Panacur ( and yes I was a kid over 50 yrs ago too) may totally clear a worm problem in some horses and in others the retest 10 days after the end of the course will actually show a higher number of worm eggs, with all shades in between. Imagine if someone is relying on that drug all year and not testing at all.

The evidence for moxidectin has been cited at the Moredun research institute in Edinburgh but again we see it with some of the horses we test, though it is difficult to unravel the various factors involved as not a scientific study. There is a lot of under dosing with Equest as people just give a 'full tube' not thinking that it only treats 575 kg Certainly earlier egg reappearance is definitely evident and that is the first sign of resistance.

I apologise if I appear cross but you read such rubbish about worming on this forum and sometimes it gets annoying!
 
Well said Borderreiver. Its quite simple really. ALWAYS treat for encysted in the winter. ALWAYS treat for tapeworm once or twice a year as directed by your vet. Worm count to see if the horse needs worming at any other time. If the horse needs worming, worm it, then you can have another test done 4 weeks later to see if there is resistance or not to the particular chemical you used. If there is choose another chemical , not just another brand name.
Resistance if easy to understand if you think baked beans. Theres Heinz, Cross&Blackwell and Tescos Own brand. They are all baked beans. No point in changing from Heinz to Tescos Own if you are resistant to baked beans. You need Spagetti hoops instead.
 
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My vet is extremely concerned about resistance she knows several places where this is already a big problem , we must all keep use of wormers to a minimum and target what we use with good advice to choose what to use and when or we be back to cross tieing them for a year like in the olden days.
 
Borderreiver said:
There is a lot of under dosing with Equest as people just give a 'full tube' not thinking that it only treats 575 kg Certainly earlier egg reappearance is definitely evident and that is the first sign of resistance.
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I have a pet theory that under dosing is a major factor in all worm resistance. It's not just not giving the correct dose, horses often spit part of the dose out.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
which is why I tend to slightly overdose. MY 600kg big cob gets wormed for 650 kg for example. I too belive that underdosing is a big problem.
 
criso said:
The difficulty it where to get this advice.

I have been at various yards and the VET ADVISED programme is an aggressive blanket approach regardless of worm count result.
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Somewhere like Westgate labs. Vets vary so much in their knowledge and approach. I think yards should be guided by labs as well tbh. I read of so many different strategies, some of which seem to depend on the YO's thinking and tradition rather than effective protocols.
 
Well Criso I could answer that one as we have a team of very knowledgeable and experienced SQP's here, and we don't sell wormers so are impartial, but I will get told off if I advertise on here!
Thank you Amanda, we cross posted!
 
amandap said:
Somewhere like Westgate labs. Vets vary so much in their knowledge and approach. I think yards should be guided by labs as well tbh. I read of so many different strategies, some of which seem to depend on the YO's thinking and tradition rather than effective protocols.
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But most people will not even think to question a vet and would possibly take their opinion over a lab.

And I know this came from the vet not the yard because I saw the handout (that the vet presumably gave to all their clients) when I questioned why (other than tapeworm and encysted) they were suggesting so much worming for a horse that had always had clear worms counts.

Borderreiver - I get Westgate to do counts on my horses and use this to 'discuss' the best approach but I am not typical of livery yard clients most of whom don't question. Plus in some yards there is no discussion to be had.
 
Under dosing is a big problem that manufacturers should address

Either make the tube of wormer larger

or do as Ancare have done with Parade wormer

it has the same amount of ingredients as other wormers but in half the carrier which is why I use it - far harder for the horse to spit it out as its gone so fast.

My Clydesdale and her 17hh xbred daughter both get two tubes each.
 
criso said:
But most people will not even think to question a vet and would possibly take their opinion over a lab.

And I know this came from the vet not the yard because I saw the handout (that the vet presumably gave to all their clients) when I questioned why (other than tapeworm and encysted) they were suggesting so much worming for a horse that had always had clear worms counts.
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This is true and I do believe you. I do think this is where sites such as this can help with giving owners confidence to question Vets and professionals in general on so many subjects.
 
criso said:
But most people will not even think to question a vet and would possibly take their opinion over a lab.

.
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I question vets over absolutely everything. I find a lot of vet advice is in fact, well, not always very good.

Bordereiver,
do you have any experience how accurate tape worm testing is please? as an option to worming. This is for a horse that I don't want to use any chemical wormers that are not necessary.

Also if using PG (with it's resistance problems) if you worm count say 8 weeks after with a <50 result can you assume it will also have dealt with encystedm which I know won't show up on a test?

sorry for hijacking this thread with questions.
 
paddy555 said:
I question vets over absolutely everything. I find a lot of vet advice is in fact, well, not always very good .
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yes but it's fair to say that those of us who are curious enough to go online and get into a discussion, are the sort of people who will question and research.

I don't think that's the majority of the horse owning population.
 
As an aside.... I spoke to the Equest Rep last week at the worming talk I went to as my mare weighs 617kgs (on a weigh bridge) about the fact their tubes only go up to 575kgs and he told me they are aiming to bring out bigger dosing tube hopefully by the autumn! :)
 
the encystyed worm thing is interesting. If a horse has had consistant less than 50 for say, 4 years or so thenis there any point in continuing to worm for encysted? As wont they have been got rid of?
 
To reassure some posters, I have asked advice from a variety of sources - here and Westgate being just two :).
 
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