Worm counts versus wormers

[Cinnamontoast]

I've spoken to a very well known vet from a vet hospital in the area and his advise (strong advise) is to worm count and only worm for what you have, instead you will build up resistance. He suspects that mine already have resistance hence the high counts.

Not my area, then! The vet hospital here has said worm using various wormers. My own vets disagree strongly and say only worm when WEC come back showing worms.

I strongly disagree. That would mean my vet would control my worming program and I simply don't think they have sufficient experience. (I appreciate some people won't like that arrogant attitude)

I don't think that's arrogant at all. I refuse to listen to vets about nutrition or worming. They just don't have the training. A poster on here who has a parisitologist friend says her mate advises using WEC and only using wormers if need is demonstrated. How can a bet possibly countermand this?! And how come three of my vets think the RVC worming programme is totally wrong? (Maybe cos they've done more study on the issue?)

When I had the facilities to do my own easily I used them but don't pay for them as it would only remove 1/2 of the treatments I do a year, plus if you are jabbing for mites (as I think you might CT) that kind of covers at least another one too!

I haven't needed to jab for mites for years, not since I stuck him on straw.

The solution is to ensure that each and every poo is picked up from a paddock/field each day every day. That way you will dramatically reduce the worm burden.

Yet Westgate labs said to me on Facebook the other day that this isn't actually essential and that treating the individual horse according to its needs is far more important.

 

[ester]

It isn't essential but pretty helpful as part of a whole reduction program.

 

[Borderreiver]

BVA advice to all vets is to 'only prescribe anthelmintics (wormers) to horses who need them' so I'm not sure where some of this advice is coming from. This was the edict in 2010.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

^^ I'd love to know why, therefore, the RVC has created a worming programme for our yard. Not the vet's words, but I was told to give a wormer as a preventative, just in case, which is surely a joke?! My own vets are following BVA advice.

From what I can gather locally, there is so much blanket worming that large scale resistance is inevitable.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Especially for those of you on livery yards: are YOs allowing you to worm count rather than blanket worm? I'm concerned about the blanket worming and the resistance issue.

Most yards round here advise the wormer they want customers to use, but no checks are made. Some yards don't have a worming programme. Mine does, although being asked on multiple occasions, we still haven't been given it. Having followed the worming programme, I got back my first ever medium redworm count from Westgate (re-wormed, now clear)

I would prefer to only worm for encysted redworm/tapes annually and I can't understand why some YOs insist that we worm when no new wormers are being developed so we'll be in a bad way once resistance increases.

We all worm count here ( I do them ) so know they are done, then we worm also and I get them and charge them so they do follow the rest. We do red worm a tape worm at set times according to Hadrian equines advice/vets advice. Poo picked daily so most of them are no eggs seen,if any eggs are seen it is normaly the newbies.

 

[paddy555]

From what I can gather locally, there is so much blanket worming that large scale resistance is inevitable.

can someone elaborate on how resistance works please? border reiver?

my horses are counted and wormed only when necessary plus equest in Dec plus equisal test. They are kept on my own land and will never be kept or grazed elsewhere. No outside horses come in. If resistance increases as it no doubt will would that affect horses kept as mine are who are only wormed occasionally, ie will they be resistant to the wormers just because others around me have blanket wormed. (I have been worm counting since around 2005)

 

[ester]

resistance occurs from random mutation, usually resistant worms would just be part of a larger population/outcompeted by other mutations in other worms etc etc.
Practices like turning on to fresh pasture post worming mean that if any of the worms in the horse had a resistance mutation they would survive, be the only ones to survive and then make up 100% of the population on that pasture as there is no competition.
Under dosing means that the degree of resistance for the worms to perpetuate doesn't have to be as strong in the first instance to then further develop (I think, I am better at bacteria!)

It is area specific so if you don't have a horse in from outside with resistant worms your land would not get them.
There are some areas of land in devon that can no longer be used for sheep because of worms resistant to all treatment options on them and some incidences for horses too.
Worm-bod known to recommend if you buy a new horse, do a FEC, treat with ivermectin, do another FEC (no turnout in meantime) and if you don't get a <50epg do not keep horse.

 

[AandK]

I'd worry that there is no winter coverage for encycsted redworm AndK?

They were wormed in Oct with Equest Pramox, which covers encysted redworm. Or do you mean no redworm cover as they were not wormed in March?

 

[ester]

It is too early really, it is recommended that you treat between Dec and Feb (before spring emergence). In October/after october they will still be encysting/being exposed to them and then they have sufficient time to build up a burden before the mass spring emergence.

 

[AandK]

It is too early really, it is recommended that you treat between Dec and Feb (before spring emergence). In October/after october they will still be encysting/being exposed to them and then they have sufficient time to build up a burden before the mass spring emergence.

I see, thanks! Will bear this in mind for the end of this year.

 

[paddy555]

resistance occurs from random mutation, usually resistant worms would just be part of a larger population/outcompeted by other mutations in other worms etc etc.
Practices like turning on to fresh pasture post worming mean that if any of the worms in the horse had a resistance mutation they would survive, be the only ones to survive and then make up 100% of the population on that pasture as there is no competition.
Under dosing means that the degree of resistance for the worms to perpetuate doesn't have to be as strong in the first instance to then further develop (I think, I am better at bacteria!)

It is area specific so if you don't have a horse in from outside with resistant worms your land would not get them.
There are some areas of land in devon that can no longer be used for sheep because of worms resistant to all treatment options on them and some incidences for horses too.
Worm-bod known to recommend if you buy a new horse, do a FEC, treat with ivermectin, do another FEC (no turnout in meantime) and if you don't get a <50epg do not keep horse.

thanks for that. We are resistant to febendizole but still OK with the others, fingers crossed..

 

[soloequestrian]

I know this is probably obvious to most, but having had a big argument with someone from the US I think it's worth pointing out again that it's the WORMS that become resistant, not the horse!

 

[stencilface]

We have never worm counted in 27 years on the same field, just wormed them, harrowed the field, rested them, and had sheep in annually. As our herd of five on 12 acres is stable, well same guys for 2 years but two of them have been there 11 and 20 years.

This year we are going to worm counted and see how it goes. I worry about the resistance. And when we wormed 3 years ago, our 29 year old got I'll immediately and colicked, and has a racing heart rate, he was seen by the vet within two hours, 24 hours later he collapsed and was pts. I'm sure he had other issues given his age, however it has made me wonder about the poisons many of us on recommendations automatically give our horses.

 

[ester]

Vaccinations and prob wormers iirc definitely upset Frank's feet (he gets a blood line in his white hinds).
I think if I had a real oldie (F not there yet) I would count, one on the yard (now PTS for other stuff) would pretty much colic every time and I don't know why they didn't insist on counting instead. I think once they are old they are either pretty resilient to them or become the herd suscpetible one.

 

[stencilface]

It was pretty awful. The bf thing is certainly another consideration and the fact that the mule is a arse to worm!

 

[kamili]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that one of the recommended tape worm brands on here can cause colic if dosage is to high.