Wormer advice

[Frances 74]

Hi any advice on my situation my horses weve had since june have been wormed upto date with wormers including red worm wormers now december I lost 3 horses due to vets saying encysted red worm not proven yet now 1 that was originally diagnosed still alive vets say burden was 10000 now excuse my intelligence but they were wormed before we had them durin seasons with wormers how do they still get 10000 burden and then be treated and still die from advice from vets we have 4 still poorly but nobody has answers vets enviromental health defra involved due to severity of dead horses in herd of 7 now 4 can anyone advise me as I'm at a loss ?

 

[ester]

Did you have a PM on any of the ones that died?

 

[Red-1]

Worms in horses is not an exact science to understand. Some have resistance to worms.

It is difficult to diagnose encysted worms, whilst they are encysted they are hidden in a cyst like structure within the horse. Hence, mine get a once a year worm for tape/encysted despite being on a 0 worm count for many years. I poo pick every day, twice a day if they are out 24/7. They and on 0 don't share pasture, so theoretically I should never need to worm, but because of the unpredictability, I still do.

Wormers do not clear them out 100%. That is why I still poo pick daily (or twice daily) despite being on a 0 count. Also, the count is only for that particular piece of poo, not for the whole horse. It is best to take a sample from several poos over a couple of days, from different places in to poo too. Worm counting is advised twice a year, even for mine with 0 and no cross grazing, so more often with a new horse or horses who cross graze, or if poo picking is not thorough.

Have you been poo picking since they came? That is the best way to prevent high worm burdens IME. Worms can become resistant to the wormers if they are relied upon in a heavily grazed pasture where poo picking is not thorough. Then they won't work.

 

[Frances 74]

We lost one 6th dec 25th dec 26th dec they took samples but said due to christmas perioud they were no good so now one who had 10,000 burden is still alive we are devastated losing 3 horses all 19 months old and still no answers we've contacted parasitespecialists worming specialists waiting for response

 

[Frances 74]

Poo picking every day never together not grazed 24/7 but still had high burden still cant explain deaths of 3 horses in 2 weeks so at a loss

 

[Red-1]

Was it Pramox that they were treated with? There seem to be some issues with that one as it has 2 strong ingredients, and if the horse has a high burden it can make them react.

That is one I do use, but would not if I suspected a high worm burden as it is very effective and losing all the worms at once from encysted horses can cause damage.

 

[dorsetladette]

Is the grazing new to you?

When we first got our land it had been overgrazed and not poo picked or looked after at all for a very long time. An old pony of my friends who had had zero counts for years suddenly had a very high count after moving on in the beginning.
My ponies always come back with a small count now. I worm appropriately, poo pick regularly and rotate my grazing.

so, i was wondering if the worm burden is due to the grazing quality rather than your current management

 

[Red-1]

Is the grazing new to you?

When we first got our land it had been overgrazed and not poo picked or looked after at all for a very long time. An old pony of my friends who had had zero counts for years suddenly had a very high count after moving on in the beginning.
My ponies always come back with a small count now. I worm appropriately, poo pick regularly and rotate my grazing.

so, i was wondering if the worm burden is due to the grazing quality rather than your currently management

Good point, when we moved here the and had been similarly over grazed and not seen to at all. The vet advised not grazing it at all until it had suffered a hard freeze or a proper summer bake with the grass cut short. Other than that, the worm burden would have stayed a hazard.

Luckily, we moved 2 days before Xmas and it froze solid for a month!!! Thank you for the reminder, I forgot that detail.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This case is too serious and convoluted to be getting advice on a forum as to what wormers to use going forward.

No pms done on the dead ones?

 

[ester]

I think I’ve seen you post about this before.

It’s really helpful if you can answer the questions posted.

 

[ycbm]

This is the third time you've started a thread on this and nothing much has changed in your information.

I'm sorry you lost your youngsters, but what is it you actually want us to comment on?

.

 

[Frances 74]

Is the grazing new to you?

When we first got our land it had been overgrazed and not poo picked or looked after at all for a very long time. An old pony of my friends who had had zero counts for years suddenly had a very high count after moving on in the beginning.
My ponies always come back with a small count now. I worm appropriately, poo pick regularly and rotate my grazing.

so, i was wondering if the worm burden is due to the grazing quality rather than your current management

This is the third time you've started a thread on this and nothing much has changed in your information.

I'm sorry you lost your youngsters, but what is it you actually want us to comment on?

.

The land was new to us and had horses on it years ago vets theory parasite living on pasture before our horses moved on just wanted to know if anyone had issues as to high burden even if theyd been wormed with pramox and equest within 2 week perioud advised by vets plus steroids and cytotec but others still died so seeking advice from specialists

 

[ester]

So ermm PM?! *Wonders if on UI

Thanks ycbm I wasn’t sure if seen on here or fb

 

[dorsetladette]

The land was new to us and had horses on it years ago vets theory parasite living on pasture before our horses moved on just wanted to know if anyone had issues as to high burden even if theyd been wormed with pramox and equest within 2 week perioud advised by vets plus steroids and cytotec but others still died so seeking advice from specialists

Personally, I've not heard of parasites living in the ground for 'years'. as red-1 said once you've had a hot summer 'bake' or a winter freeze it should kill any nasties. I'm more inclined to think that you have taken on 7 babies with a dubious background and that they potentially came with the worm burden?

I would be concerned about worming with pramox and then equest only 2 weeks apart with youngsters with such a high worm burden - but I'm not vet.

What is the plan for the 4 remaining ponies going forward? have they made any improvement since you lost the others in December?

 

[Frances 74]

They took tissue from one but couldn't get anything due to xmas and new year so didn't come up with cause

 

[Tiddlypom]

They took tissue from one but couldn't get anything due to xmas and new year so didn't come up with cause

Tissue samples can be stored in the fridge or freezer until the lab can examine them .

ETA This is the latest in a series of rambling incoherent threads on the subject posted by the OP. There is not a lot of advice that lay folk on here can safely offer in the circumstances, this is not a usual ‘what wormer’ type thread.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/pramox-wormer.783999/#post-14166992

 

[Frances 74]

They failed to do that so was waste of time so never got answers

 

[Frances 74]

Personally, I've not heard of parasites living in the ground for 'years'. as red-1 said once you've had a hot summer 'bake' or a winter freeze it should kill any nasties. I'm more inclined to think that you have taken on 7 babies with a dubious background and that they potentially came with the worm burden?

I would be concerned about worming with pramox and then equest only 2 weeks apart with youngsters with such a high worm burden - but I'm not vet.

What is the plan for the 4 remaining ponies going forward? have they made any improvement since you lost the others in December?

Personally, I've not heard of parasites living in the ground for 'years'. as red-1 said once you've had a hot summer 'bake' or a winter freeze it should kill any nasties. I'm more inclined to think that you have taken on 7 babies with a dubious background and that they potentially came with the worm burden?

I would be concerned about worming with pramox and then equest only 2 weeks apart with youngsters with such a high worm burden - but I'm not vet.

What is the plan for the 4 remaining ponies going forward? have they made any improvement since you lost the others in December?

I told them after reading threads on here but they said they needed it so did what they said and he still alive 4th one they've stopped any meds just gona start new worming regime but that's it they still have a long way to recovery but they are brighter but I'm not gona curse it but we are looking for new land as vets unsure what to do now not risking others health and lives

 

[teddypops]

How do you know they were wormed correctly before you had them? Every seller I have bought a pony has assured me that worming was up to date and every time, they have had a worm burden of some degree. It’s easy to lie about this.

 

[Frances 74]

Is the grazing new to you?

When we first got our land it had been overgrazed and not poo picked or looked after at all for a very long time. An old pony of my friends who had had zero counts for years suddenly had a very high count after moving on in the beginning.
My ponies always come back with a small count now. I worm appropriately, poo pick regularly and rotate my grazing.

so, i was wondering if the worm burden is due to the grazing quality rather than your current management

The grazing had horses unit plus used it for hay before we took it on so apart from that no horses no crops on it till we moved on in june by december 3 horses died wormed from breeders and when delivered to us full worming throughout and running around healthy october dead December so nothing's adding up healthy dead we got to keep others alive this wasnt neglect by any means they weren't showing any symptoms till november vets didn't diagnose till first one died then others succumbed to illness and had to be put down a day apart

 

[Frances 74]

How do you know they were wormed correctly before you had them? Every seller I have bought a pony has assured me that worming was up to date and every time, they have had a worm burden of some degree. It’s easy to lie about this.

The one breeder is a equine nutritionist goes world wide and other one horses are top standard bred race records so haven't got reason to lie we did research and got excellent feedback so that isnt the reason we give our vets all the info on history wormers etc so have nothing to hide from them

 

[dorsetladette]

I think you'll struggle to find grazing else where with a poorly pony when you have lost 3 and the illness is undiagnosed. I certainly wouldn't want your ponies on my land or near my ponies.

I'd concentrate on getting your ponies better before looking for somewhere else.

 

[Frances 74]

Vets advised us to move so they happy it's not contagious for there welfare they've been stabled since it started so vets taking bloods protein and regular tests to check health

 

[ycbm]

I'm still struggling to understand what you think anyone on this forum can add at the third time round of you posting about this.

My suggestion is that you change vets because they are too incompetent to chill a tissue sample until it can be analysed and they clearly don't have your confidence or you wouldn't keep on starting threads on here.

Then when you've got vets you trust and are following their advice, I'm sure we would all love to be updated with how your youngsters are doing and any further insight your vet was able to give you into this sad situation.

.

 

[Frances 74]

Thankyou will do

 

[teddypops]

The one breeder is a equine nutritionist goes world wide and other one horses are top standard bred race records so haven't got reason to lie we did research and got excellent feedback so that isnt the reason we give our vets all the info on history wormers etc so have nothing to hide from them

Doesn’t mean a thing!

 

[ester]

I don’t understand why at least one pm wasn’t carried out or that there aren’t at least any descriptions/comments of the gross pathology of the samples taken.

 

[SEL]

I was on a yard where we lost 3 youngsters due to worm damage. The suspect horse was a mare who had been PTS a few months earlier. The YO had a rough PM done at the hunt yard and she was riddled despite being wormed. Her field mate had been PTS at the same time (old age) & the hunt cut her open too and found her full of worms. We can only guess that the sick mare brought resistant redworms onto the yard.

In terms of the horse you still have alive they can support with steroids

 

[Frances 74]

Weve now found another cause metal poisoning we need more tests but the symptoms have same results death so the worming may still be a problem but now have this issue moving is going to be only option for 4 survivors to live

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tbh it did sound more like some sort of environmental poisoning than a mass reaction to a wormer. Can you keep all the remaining horses off grazing and just on hay until you can move them?