Wormers - I really wouldn't be surprised.

[cptrayes]

The best solution we have right now is FECs.

A better solution is to stop keeping horses on areas which are too small. Back in the old days, the rule was 3 acres for the first horse and 1 acre for evey horse you add. How many horses are kept on that much land? I'm lucky, mine are and I worm once for tape and once for encysted redworm as a precaution. I never poo pick, they simply avoid poo'd on areas. I have noticed in 22 years that they also move to a new poo area and let the other recover, but they have 12 acres between 2 or 3 of them.

The truth is that we have used wormers to allow us to keep horses in a way that we never used to be able to. If the lack of wormers stops us keeping horses in areas that are too small, then maybe it will only be a good thing?

Horses dropping dead may or may not happen but we do have to take individual responsibility at this basic level to safeguard our own animals.

Unfortunately, there is no "we". People will do what they do.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Vets are all trained to degree level in parasitology so surprisingly do know their stuff!

absolute rubbish-and I am a parasitologist who helps educate vet students, I know exactly how much education vet students receive about horse parasites.

I've seen people on here post that their vets have suggested giving half doses of pramox-idjeets. underdosing is as much a cause of resistance as over worming, if not ore so.

I don't think SQPs need educating to degree level in parasitology but the training could be better, more applied and they should be given the latest information and maybe more comprehensive CPD requirements.

alot of work is going on looking at alternatives to worming in other species. If they are successful the research may well be used in horses in the future.if anyone will pay for it.

 

[Patterdale]

I have never ever EVER been questioned or advised by a SQP when buying wormers.
It usually goes like this -

'Could I have 2 Equimax please?'
'Yes, anything else'
'No thanks, byeee!'

I think this is well overdue.
However, won't vets prescribe over the phone once they've seen the horse? For instance, if I ring my vets for some bute or penicillin they just ask which horse it's for then leave it for me to pick up. Won't it be the same with wormers?

 

[Borderreiver]

Lots of sense talked from Tallyho and some others. I am another who has spent the last 14 years trying to educate owners about sustainable worming. I am an SQP but my company has never sold a single dose. We introduced the first ever direct to owner FEC service and have continued to promote sustainable worming ever since.

My company have also travelled the country giving CPD to other SQP's and a major part of our role is education. It's a long journey though especially with yard owners and many folk are still entrenched in worming four times a year with you know what.

A myriad of worming questions are answered every day on our fb page.

Maybe it will improve when the advertising ban comes in later in the year? Maybe then people will be more inclined to listen to those who know rather than being brain washed by the big pharma companies. These days they all promote FECS but only in so far as they can fit in with their own products. Many shop SQP's are trained by their reps.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am not surprised BEVA would like wormers to be prescription only as this could potentially be a big money earning activity for them without then having to do very much!

Indeed!

A few years ago I bought 3 tubes of Pramox from the vet, the next time I got it, I went to a local farm stores. It cost me exactly half for the 2nd lot. I've never bought from the vet again.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

A better solution is to stop keeping horses on areas which are too small. Back in the old days, the rule was 3 acres for the first horse and 1 acre for evey horse you add. How many horses are kept on that much land? I'm lucky, mine are and I worm once for tape and once for encysted redworm as a precaution. I never poo pick, they simply avoid poo'd on areas. I have noticed in 22 years that they also move to a new poo area and let the other recover, but they have 12 acres between 2 or 3 of them.

The truth is that we have used wormers to allow us to keep horses in a way that we never used to be able to. If the lack of wormers stops us keeping horses in areas that are too small, then maybe it will only be a good thing?

Cross-grazing also works well to remove worms from horse-pasture, livery owners would do well to practise that.

 

[Murphy88]

From a vets point of view, unfortunately we have now reached a point with anthelmintic resistance where this is the only logical option. It is not just a case of being a bit careful until they come up with a new drug - there are no new drugs, and years of poor worming practices have basically well and truly screwed us over for the future.

It will not mean a visit every 8-12 weeks.
1) You shouldn't be worming that often anyway. FECs should take the place of worming for most of the year, only a minority of horses carry the worm burdens in a herd and these are the only ones that should need worming.
2) Prescription only means the animal has to be under a vets care, so as long as we have seen it within the last 6-12 months (vaccinations etc) then you won't require a visit.

My practice makes a loss on several of the wormers we sell. But it is the only way to compete with online places and tack shops, and we would rather our clients came to us and are sold the correct wormer than go to a tack shop and buy the wrong one. At my practice, clients are sold the correct wormer for their horse, they do not pick which wormer to buy, we tell them what they need. If SQPs had increased training and did this reliably then it wouldn't be so bad, but as already mentioned, so many people buy unsuitable wormers from tack shops and not all SQPs are advising them.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I'm surprised at all these people who have vets who tell them to worm all the time. I must have wonderful vets. I got my worm count results back last week. My native youngster had 1200epg and my TB had less than 200epg. I only had one Equest wormer so went to the tack shop where they have a SQP to get another Equest. SQP was not at work that day, so they couldn't give me one. On the way out, I saw my vet who asked what I'd been buying. I said "nothing" as they couldn't prescribe me a wormer and said that I'd had a FEC done. She said to worm the one with 1200epg but not to worm the TB with less than 200epg. So I was saved some money as I didn't have to buy the extra one! I will also do them with Equitape in a couple of weeks and then in August when their vaccinations are due, I will also get another FEC done and also the blood test for tapeworm...it may work out a bit more expensive but I don't like pumping unnecessary drugs into them and building up the resistance.

 

[tallyho!]

A better solution is to stop keeping horses on areas which are too small. Back in the old days, the rule was 3 acres for the first horse and 1 acre for evey horse you add. How many horses are kept on that much land? I'm lucky, mine are and I worm once for tape and once for encysted redworm as a precaution. I never poo pick, they simply avoid poo'd on areas. I have noticed in 22 years that they also move to a new poo area and let the other recover, but they have 12 acres between 2 or 3 of them.

The truth is that we have used wormers to allow us to keep horses in a way that we never used to be able to. If the lack of wormers stops us keeping horses in areas that are too small, then maybe it will only be a good thing?





Unfortunately, there is no "we". People will do what they do.

Well, thinking of the average Joe Rider, its not the most achievable solution re acreage:horse ratio. Just not possible for everyone. It's definitely the ideal solution of course alongside cross-grazing which I am always keen to mention in my posts on this subject.

At this moment in time where we do not have the luxury of new classes of anthelmintics coming on the market, FECs are part of the overall answer to this problem. When one appears on the market, because of patent laws they will likely be much more expensive than what we are all used to. However, I doubt we will see a new class this side of 2020.

But surely... I see people spend £1000's on rugs and boots and wraps etc... Surely they wouldn't object at expensive wormers????

 

[tallyho!]

From a vets point of view, unfortunately we have now reached a point with anthelmintic resistance where this is the only logical option. It is not just a case of being a bit careful until they come up with a new drug - there are no new drugs, and years of poor worming practices have basically well and truly screwed us over for the future.

It will not mean a visit every 8-12 weeks.
1) You shouldn't be worming that often anyway. FECs should take the place of worming for most of the year, only a minority of horses carry the worm burdens in a herd and these are the only ones that should need worming.
2) Prescription only means the animal has to be under a vets care, so as long as we have seen it within the last 6-12 months (vaccinations etc) then you won't require a visit.

My practice makes a loss on several of the wormers we sell. But it is the only way to compete with online places and tack shops, and we would rather our clients came to us and are sold the correct wormer than go to a tack shop and buy the wrong one. At my practice, clients are sold the correct wormer for their horse, they do not pick which wormer to buy, we tell them what they need. If SQPs had increased training and did this reliably then it wouldn't be so bad, but as already mentioned, so many people buy unsuitable wormers from tack shops and not all SQPs are advising them.

Brilliant and thank you for highlighting this problem from a vets POV

 

[Stephani]

Whilst it seems obvious that Intelligent Worming is the best way forward, it has caused me a big problem - I've had my 3 horses for 26 yrs, 17 yrs and 13 yrs respectively, have always used the traditional method of worming, and never had a problem, until 3 years ago, when we went over to worm counts and IW.
After 2 years of iw (always getting back the lowest count from the lab) and worming for tape & rw one of the geldings started getting bothered with pinworm, and within a month so was the other gelding and the mare (the mare is grazed seperately from the geldings). Its been really difficult to get rid of as well, involving several wormings, both ends, and finally 5 day Panacur which has now at last seemed to do the trick.
Apparently this is common with IW. Would appreciate opinions from anyone who has experience...

 

[tallyho!]

IW is a brand.

 

[doriangrey]

I'm surprised at all these people who have vets who tell them to worm all the time. I must have wonderful vets. I got my worm count results back last week. My native youngster had 1200epg and my TB had less than 200epg. I only had one Equest wormer so went to the tack shop where they have a SQP to get another Equest. SQP was not at work that day, so they couldn't give me one. On the way out, I saw my vet who asked what I'd been buying. I said "nothing" as they couldn't prescribe me a wormer and said that I'd had a FEC done. She said to worm the one with 1200epg but not to worm the TB with less than 200epg. So I was saved some money as I didn't have to buy the extra one! I will also do them with Equitape in a couple of weeks and then in August when their vaccinations are due, I will also get another FEC done and also the blood test for tapeworm...it may work out a bit more expensive but I don't like pumping unnecessary drugs into them and building up the resistance.

Agreed, my mare gets tested (admittedly she has 5 acres but I still poo-pick like a demented chipmunk on prozac) along with the goats. Their fecal count is clear and I will not pump chemicals into them if it's not necessary. It's like when the little man comes home from school with the nit notice, you know the one - the school has found nits on some poor kid and everyone has to have the treatment, regardless of whether they have the little crawlers or not

 

[tallyho!]

Whilst it seems obvious that Intelligent Worming is the best way forward, it has caused me a big problem - I've had my 3 horses for 26 yrs, 17 yrs and 13 yrs respectively, have always used the traditional method of worming, and never had a problem, until 3 years ago, when we went over to worm counts and IW.
After 2 years of iw (always getting back the lowest count from the lab) and worming for tape & rw one of the geldings started getting bothered with pinworm, and within a month so was the other gelding and the mare (the mare is grazed seperately from the geldings). Its been really difficult to get rid of as well, involving several wormings, both ends, and finally 5 day Panacur which has now at last seemed to do the trick.
Apparently this is common with IW. Would appreciate opinions from anyone who has experience...

IW is a brand.

Sorry Stephani... my reply must have been confusing to you! I was typing away and my ipad reloaded the page and everything dissapeared, then it died.

Anyway, got some juice now. Yes IW is a brand and know a few YO friends who have used them and not had a problem. Have you taken this up with them?

I personally don't like the monthly payment aspect thing so I use independant labs like Westgate or Equilab as I used to be a lab-rat myself.

 

[moana]

Surely vets are busy enough without having to visit to give wormers. Surely they should get you to send/deliver poo samples, which their staff can test, then post/collect the wormers IF it goes that way. It had better not as far as I am concerned. I do already have one equine with a wormer resistence, discover after I bought her.

 

[Dry Rot]

It isn't rocket science to do your own FECs and there are plenty of microscopes on Ebay. Clear instructions on how to do it can be found with Google, and cheap plastic counting slides which will work just as well as the expensive glass ones are readily available.

Also, it is not only worms that become resistant. If horses are not over wormed, most will develop a natural immunity which should surely be the aim.

Unless things have changed, parasitology at vet college used to be in the first year and I've met a few vets who were obviously not paying much attention in lectures!

 

[SO1]

But if vets are just going to do this what is the difference between a vet doing this and a SQP who has a similar business and who can probably provide a cheaper service.

Surely vets are busy enough without having to visit to give wormers. Surely they should get you to send/deliver poo samples, which their staff can test, then post/collect the wormers IF it goes that way. It had better not as far as I am concerned. I do already have one equine with a wormer resistence, discover after I bought her.

 

[SO1]

I doubt it is going to be those who can afford to spend this sort of money on rugs etc who are going to be the people who may stop worming their horses it is more likely to be those who are struggling. It could also have a big impact on riding schools as if they needed to have each horse inspected by vet every time they needed to worm them it would cost a fortune and if they are not being expected by the vet then why bother having it as a vet only option?

But surely... I see people spend £1000's on rugs and boots and wraps etc... Surely they wouldn't object at expensive wormers????

 

[tallyho!]

I doubt it is going to be those who can afford to spend this sort of money on rugs etc who are going to be the people who may stop worming their horses it is more likely to be those who are struggling. It could also have a big impact on riding schools as if they needed to have each horse inspected by vet every time they needed to worm them it would cost a fortune and if they are not being expected by the vet then why bother having it as a vet only option?

If you read the vets post on the previous page you will see that this will not be the case.

 

[ribbons]

That's a good point about acreage cpt. Like you I'm lucky enough to have mine on a huge amount, with sheep as well in the summer.
I know that's very unusual and indeed unachievable for most owners, but some livery yards are really quite ridiculous.
We have one near us where the one and only field is split with electric fence into sections about 30mtrs x 100mtrs. One horse at a time per section.
They have 11 sections and 15 stables.
To me this is wrong on so many levels, but from a worming point of view it is ridiculous.
The small area means poo has to be picked daily, but you can't get every scrap up, and we know the tiny amount the lab needs to count millions of eggs.
Surely the horse is ingesting far more eggs on this system than 4 or 5 horses on 10 acres with no poo picking done. Here they will avoid the stale areas. In little strips they have no choice.

I know we have a resistance problem, but tbh I don't think it will be solved with new better wormers (even if they were on the cards, which they're not)
They will go the same way as
others have.
Until horse owners start keeping their horses in more sensible
environments and livery yards stop cramming them in to the number of stables they have, regardless of how little land is available, the problem will never end. Along with the multitude of other problems associated with DIY horses kept in situations like those I've quoted. Bad enough for horses all under one rule of management but with 10 or 15 owners, often inexperienced, all doing their own thing is it any surprise the problems that are created.

 

[tallyho!]

Have to agree ribbons. It's one of my pet hates as I drive around the country seeing tiny plots of ugly white tape everywhere and with horses rugged up to the nines with no-where to go. How it's not a welfare issue I do not know.

 

[lauraandjack]

Can I just add my 2 pennorth!

A lot of the old advice about worming (and that is still bandied around by vets/farmers/horse owners of a certain age) is advice that stemmed FROM THE KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME.

When anthelmintics (and antibiotics) were invented, the idea of resistance did not exist. No one was aware of it. Basically it was considered that within a few years, there would be no need to worm, as the wormers would have got rid of all the worms, made them extinct.

This is where the 3 week "dose and move to clean pasture" worming plan for farm animals came from.

Fast forward 30-40 years and we are now realising that this is the worst idea possible, and is a fantastic idea to promote resistance, as you are effectively dumping only resistant worms onto a clean pasture where there are no worms "in refugia" (i.e. on the ground) to dilute the resistant population with.

Anthelmitic resistance is a massive problem particularly in sheep. This partly stems from advice given in the past by vets and drug companies that we now know to be incorrect (but can I stress that it was THE BEST KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME) and partly from those within the industry who refuse to move with the times and use current best practice.

As a vet I know that a lot of the advice given by SQP's is frankly appalling. I spent 2 semesters studying parasitology, learning in depth the life cycles of more parasites than I care to remember. Most SQP's will have been on a one-day course. Make up your own mind who has the better understanding.

A good majority of farmers and horse owners won't go for faecal egg counts because they cost money, with the potential of having to spend more money if you get a positive result. They'd rather just worm the animal whether it needs it or not!

 

[tallyho!]

Resistance has been known about for 20years but only now has it so bad that the BVA need to step in.

 

[cptrayes]

Resistance has been known about for 20years but only now has it so bad that the BVA need to step in.

What can they do, TH? There are no new wormers. There is resistance to the ones we have. They are freely available to import from other countries. The passport fiasco means that anyone who wants to can simply not worm if they don't want to pay a vet or illegally import.

What do you think should happen?

 

[tallyho!]

What can they do, TH? There are no new wormers. There is resistance to the ones we have. They are freely available to import from other countries. The passport fiasco means that anyone who wants to can simply not worm if they don't want to pay a vet or illegally import.

What do you think should happen?

Not sure why you are asking me specifically, but as I keep saying, FECs and what you suggested about good pasture management, cross grazing etc. all these measures are needed.

Somehow the practice of blanket worming has to stop. Awareness is the key and I think the BHS needs to take some responsibility and make it clearer. The magazines have all done their bit. I always see articles about it, even in the free equine ones from the tack shop. Vets could actually help too, by writing to clients to make them aware and perhaps advise.

It's a very similar situation for the human problem of antibiotics. Overuse has meant that we don't have effective strains anymore. Hospitals are having to be cleaner and enforce stricter hygiene practices.

Anyway, at the end of the day, its down to the individual. I moved over to FECs about 6 years ago from being on a stud that got the vets to do it and then on a large yard which did the same. Attitudes are changing but sadly it seems to be pockets he and there and within them, there are still people with the attitude that FECSs are an excuse to save money.... If only!

God forbid if you're a barefooter AND you worm count... Hippy alert!

 

[SO1]

Even if they don't visit though there are vets who will charge for writting a prescription on top of the cost of the drug and they may charge for giving you a worming programme and some vets may also insist on visits as well to make money, they will have a monopoly and I think the lack of competition will drives prices up.

My pony is already on the intelligent worming (the company) program which is expensive as it is I am paying £125 a year I am sure that if I had the same service from the vets I would probably be paying a lot more.

If you read the vets post on the previous page you will see that this will not be the case.

 

[Foxhunter49]

what a waste of their time!

i personally worm count....i will do another coming into spring, and again end of - i will worm count a few times a year and tbh if its clear then why worm??

i also tapeworm test too.....



i have a youngster - therefore dont pump crap into her that she dosent need. both worm counts are clear.... so now worm count prices go down in comparison to worming!

Worm counts are not always right.

There was a letter in the H&H recently (last couple of weeks) where a horse had a bad colic. It was infested with worms and tape worm despite having regular blood and worm counts done.

 

[tallyho!]

Even if they don't visit though there are vets who will charge for writting a prescription on top of the cost of the drug and they may charge for giving you a worming programme and some vets may also insist on visits as well to make money, they will have a monopoly and I think the lack of competition will drives prices up.

My pony is already on the intelligent worming (the company) program which is expensive as it is I am paying £125 a year I am sure that if I had the same service from the vets I would probably be paying a lot more.

Well, it will fall down to individual vets. It desperately needs controlling.

As for £125 a year on IW, well, you know you have a choice, there are other labs and also your vet. I only spend £40 a year.

 

[tallyho!]

Worm counts are not always right.

There was a letter in the H&H recently (last couple of weeks) where a horse had a bad colic. It was infested with worms and tape worm despite having regular blood and worm counts done.

The flip side is... All horses could face this infestation if there are no measures of control put in place.

Sounds as if the worms in this horse, sadly, had developed resistance. The article if I remember correctly did not say how old the horse was and how long they had been testing for. Some horses are not develop natural immunity and are prone.

The less we expose the horse to wormers, the better the natural immunity will be and obviously less resistance. Cases like that do not mean FECs are not effective. For every sad case there are thousands remaining worm "free".

 

[Goldenstar]

The flip side is... All horses could face this infestation if there are no measures of control put in place.

Sounds as if the worms in this horse, sadly, had developed resistance. The article if I remember correctly did not say how old the horse was and how long they had been testing for. Some horses are not develop natural immunity and are prone.

The less we expose the horse to wormers, the better the natural immunity will be and obviously less resistance. Cases like that do not mean FECs are not effective. For every sad case there are thousands remaining worm "free".

I don't think controls will help at all irresponsible stupid owners will remain so .
I have an IW programme in place with my vets .
In reality it means I worm twice a year for tape worm , new horses get a fivE day panacur dose and some need regular worming for a while after a while they settle .
I never poo pick except in my tiny paddocks but strictly rotate and rest paddocks .however my acreage is generous for the number of horses.