Worming experts - Pramox causing liver problems?

[Sarah1]

Hi

Has anyone heard of Equest Pramox causing liver problems in horses?

If so is it due to it being overused & worms building a resistance or the actual drug causing the issues?

Thanks

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

I am pathetic when it comes to wormers and rely on the fact that my yard has a top notch worming programme, managed by the very experienced YO. I've recently taken on a rescue Shetland whose worming history was unknown. Because of this, YO advised Pramox might be too strong for her so I wormed her with Equest (I think) the first time. She can now be safely wormed with Pramox next time the rest of the horses are done. I think it's because Pramox zaps so many different types of worms it can cause intestinal damage if the horse had a heavy worm burden that had been untreated for a long time.

But I've never heard of wormers causing liver damage. I was once told by an experienced groom that the most harm you could cause a horse by giving it too much wormer would be that you drowned it in the stuff! I think we all know that's an oversimplification of the position but I didn't think you could cause liver damage. Has your horse been diagnosed with liver damage? Are you certain any damage wasn't there before? What do your vets say?

 

[HappyHooves]

I know that Pramox is one of the ones that is very dose sensitive and that you have to be careful not to overdose.
All chemicals can cause damage, and some wormers will cause fits. Just because wormers get rid of worms doesn't mean they cannot do damage in some susceptable animals. Are you sure that your horse didn't have liver damage before Pramox? I had a companion pony on loan to me who (unknown to me) had liver damage from old Ragwort ingestion- wormed OK but went down with laminitis due to liver damage, so my vet said.

If a horse's worm burden is unknown due to lack of history, its often best to get a worm count done before deciding ( with vets advice) on which wormer to use.

 

[Sarah1]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.
No, my horse doesn't have liver damage as such, his enzymes are slightly raised (they're at 33 and ideally they should be under 24 so not bad at all really). I'm trying to bottom it now though so it doesn't get any worse & am trying to avoid him being turned away for 6 months!
I've had him 4yrs+ since he was 4 yrs old so am fairly confident his worming programme is ok however I have just done a 5 day course of panacur guard and an equitape as a precautionary measure.
The vet said it could be a virus, worms or something he's eaten or it could be something else but without biopsy we won't know & obv his enzymes aren't raised enough to warrant a biopsy at this stage.
A friend said her YO had told her that new research suggests that the drug in Pramox can cause liver damage if it's used all the time but I just wondered if that's due to the resistance they can build (I alternate mine to avoid them building a resistance so can't see this being anything to do with my lads problem)? I looked on the net & can't see any evidence of this and obv the drug is also used in other wormers so I was curious what you guys thought.

 

[peanut]

Gill from Westgate Labs is the person to ask. She's on here but I'm not sure of her username on this forum. Hopefully she will spot your post or someone else might know it.

 

[shazza283]

Which enzyme is up? If only 1 could indicate something else and not up enough to get too worried - usually expect 2-3 x normal when true problems.

 

[cptrayes]

Wormer issues are well known in barefoot horses. It makes some of them very footie for several days or weeks, especially the 13 week ones like moxidectin. My IR rescue horse ties up when given a chemical wormer.

 

[ester]

I would think it is perhaps more likely to be the equest (moxidectin) part of the pramox which might possible cause a problem as it takes a long time to clear the system as cp says. I dont remember having read anything specifically though.

 

[Donkeymad]

Pramox has a very high safety margin, whuch means you would need to give tubes and tubes of the stuff before causing any problems in most healthy horses,

 

[Sarah1]

Thanks guys, I couldn't really find anything about it either - as I say I doubt it would be the cause of my boys problems anyway.
Shazza283 - not sure which enzyme it is I only know the top of the normal range is 24 and my boys were 28 at New Year and are 33 now so by no means high enough to get too worried but obv I want to avoid them going up any further.
I have him on Equiform's Equicell which has nucleotides in it on my vets advice and the lady I spoke to from Equiform was very confident it would help so fingers crossed! My vet has had quite a few cases recently and the horses that have been turned away for 6 months have shown the best recovery but no work for 6 months would make both of us miserable so I'm trying to avoid this if at all possible!
cptrayes - my boy has had his shoes off over the winter so your post is very interesting! We have them back on now however...

 

[Sarah1]

Hi Gill/Borderreiver!
I'm glad you've posted actually! Someone else mentioned you'd be the best person to answer this!
I couldn't find anything specific but I was concerned even though I do alternate my wormer to help prevent him building a resistance.
I've given him a 5 day course of panacur guard and an equitape on my vets advice and along with the equicell I'm hoping that does the trick...

 

[amandaco2]

its not known to cause liver problems, esp not at a regular dose
most common known effects are flaccid lower lip, ataxia and swelling of the muzzle
In case of very high worm burdens, destruction of the parasites may cause a mild transient colic and loose faeces
although you have to bear in mind its relatively new and some effects wont have been reported, especially with repeat dosing.

 

[sep]

My 24yr old TbXID became quite ill, massive weight loss ,still not recovered yet after much research ,
vet bills, tests etc etc I am still convinced it links with Pramox dosing.
Seems every horse with weight loss or reluctance to eat has ulcers damage diagnosis,quite topical at the moment ,this was one theory but not conclusive.
Shes recovering very slowly , but unsure she will ever be the same again . She never had an off day in the 14yrs I have owned her. Its all just a bit worrying.Anyone else suspicious?

 

[berry]

My horse has a weak Liver and a week before and a week after worming I give her milk thistle and dandelion root to help support her liver and so far so good. Her liver enzyme levels have remained stable since doing this, before they were all over the place after worming. So I would say Yes ANY wormer can affect the liver!!!.

 

[Jo39]

I lost my 23 year old with colic a week after giving him a pramox, he'd never had it before though had previously been given equest with no problems. A friends veteran also suffered a mild bout of colic after being given a dose of it. May or may not be coincidental but I'll never risk using it again that's for sure!