Worming programme -vs- Worm counts... your experience please!

Rudey

Rudey

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Our yard is looking into changing our worming regime, I wondered if you guys would care to help/advise/offer your experiences/knowledge please!

Our horses are kept in herds of (a maximum of) eight horses. Each herd have two fields which we regularly rotate. Once rotated, the farmer harrows the muck back into the empty field to fertilise it by putting goodness back into the ground.

For the last several years we have been on worming programmes, like the Equest and Equest Pramox ones. This year we have changed to a different programme as we were advised to use a different group of wormers before our horses became immune to the Equest, as it's considered one of the strongest wormers available. We were told if our horses became immune to that, we would struggle to beat worms if the were contracted with anything else. At the beginning of October we double dosed with Strongid P.

A vet has suggested not worming the horses as frequently as we do, and look into double dosing in the spring and winter for tapeworm, doing worm counts inbetween, and only worming those who require it, as and when.

How would this work with our current set up? The farmer at our yard will NOT do individual paddocks, he says that we run our horses as herds, end of. He said if we pursue the worm count regime, we will HAVE to poo pick the fields everyday as he does not want to harrow 'infected' muck into the ground and contaminate his fields.

Liveries are reluctant to poo pick for various reasons, but mainly because they will not have the time as they either work full time, are at uni - or the main one - not everyone will contribute their fair share of work (we struggle to get everyone raggy pulling). Which is fair enough in individual paddocks as you do your own, but as herds of eight, it isn't fair if people don't pull their weight.

The farmer also argued that if one horse requires worming, then the whole herd will need doing as the horses muck that has the high worm count, will infect the field, and therefore potentially infect the rest of the horses within that herd, which in turn, will have to be treated anyway.

The farmer wants to continue on our new worming programme which has been devised by a wormer advisor from the company we purchase our wormers from. He will then continue to harrow the fields for us.

The liveries want to come off the programme, and use worm counts. But they don't want to poo pick, but the farmer insists it will need doing if we went ahead with this regime.

What are your thoughts please? What do you do? :confused:

Please bear in mind, we run as herds and normally harrow the fields. Is it essential to poo pick when you use the worm count regime? xx :)
 
Hi I worm count and double dose (or equivalent). Afraid you need to poo pick. My 2 are kept in their own paddock so its easier (still a drag I would gladly pay for someone to do this I HATE it) :D Afraid the liveries will have to decide whether they are willing to poo pick or not, or worm or not.
 
Thanks for your reply smiffyimp. You're singing from the same hymn sheet as what our farmer is saying then. I guess it will depend on the liveries agreeing to poo pick daily, which is unlikely to work out! xx
 
I suppose it depends how regulary you worm count. If you do it regularly enough then poo picking may not be as essential?

I do know thought that this is something the whole of the equestrian world is going to have to tackle eventually. I was reading an article in the veterinary review that said we basically all over worm our horses and that we are at great risk of parasites becoming immune to the chemicals we use.

As you probably know you still need to double dose for tapeworm as the counts dont detect this.

I think the liveries will have to decided what they think is best and maybe vote on it? Maybe set up a rota so the poo picking is spread out and no one is lumped with all the work?

And this:
"The farmer wants to continue on our new worming programme which has been devised by a wormer advisor from the company we purchase our wormers from. He will then continue to harrow the fields for us."

No offence but of course the wormer company are going to say this. They want you to but their wormers. Its not necessarily the best thing for your horse. I would be inclined to trust your vet over what they are saying.

I hope you find a way for this to work. If you do please let me know as will be interesting to see how people eventually get it to work on yards without individual grazing.
Thanks

Emily
 
We do worm counts BUT I have a paddock for my 2. One thing I will say he is correct regarding if one has a high worm burden.
We had one pony that always had a medium - high burden and a few weeks after I put my ponies into the paddock they vacated, a worm count was done and my usually low count mare had a medium count.
It does affect the others if one is high. This is with our paddocks being poo picked every day.

Every other yard I've been on where the horses are running in herds, the fields are not poo picked and the horses are on worm programmes. Hope you find a satisfactory solution.
 
Harrowing the fields with poos in it is bad news as all it does is re-cycle the worms. You really do need to get the poos picked up each day if you want to keep the worms down and also ensure that any new horses on the yard are wormed and kept in for 2 days before being released on your horses pasture.

Worm counts will not give you an indication of an infestation of emerging encysted small red worm or tapeworms. These will only be detected by taking blood.

As regards a worming program you need to ensure that everyone worms at the same time and with the same wormer. For instance in late Autumn you should use a wormer with an active ingredient that will deal with encysted small red worms etc.
 
I'd been through all of this, headaches, YO making plans, other liveries etc etc etc.

I now use Intellegent Worming - FANTASTIC set up. Give them a ring, they will be able to tell you how to progress forwards and how essential poo picking is or isn't in your case as you harrow.

I am debating asking YO if I can arrange for them to come and do a talk at the yard as we have lots of novices.
 
Thanks for your reply, but this is just the thing Emily, I don't know if we can convince the farmer poo picking is not essential (even if someone said it's would be fine). I think as long as all of the horses are showing low egg counts it would be fine, and imagine the field could be harrowed. However, all it would take would be one horse to have a high egg count, and he would NOT harrow the 'infected' muck back into the ground as in his mind, it will be infecting his land.

I can see what he is trying to get at, but just wondered if what he was saying is indeed correct.

So far, when I have read up on worm count threads, everybody has had individual paddocks and poo picked. I am yet to come across people following the regime in herds, and whether it is fine to harrow the herds muck or not, regardless what the egg counts say.

Even with a vote, there will be alot of controversy, a heck of alot. The farmer will not budge on the poo picking, but those who want the different regime do not want to poo pick. Then there could be those liveries who would prefer prevention over cure, and want to continue with the worming programme and harrowing. Either way, I think there will be a huge debate, a decision made, and then laterally, I imagine disgruntled liveries leaving. :(

In fairness I'm sat on the fence on this one. I see both arguements, and agree with points with both. But I physically couldn't contribute to poo picking. I broke my ankle really badly and can struggle with over exerting myself. I raggy pulled 3 barrows of ragwort the other day and really suffered for two days with my ankle. I have two horses which will be stabled at night this winter, and in all honesty, I think that daily work alone will be pushing it, nevermind with additional manual work of poo picking.

Hmmmmm, time will tell! xx
 
Thank you for the replies. You all seem to be agreeing with what the farmer is saying about the poo picking then.

Mishaspey, you have just pretty much proved what the farmer has said about the field becoming infected, which then in turn, will infect the other horses which graze on it. It is interesting to read this has actually happened where the said paddock has been poo picked, AND, wasn't over grazed by a number of horses, just a single pony.

Normally Peter, we have been on a worming programme where we all use the same wormer, on the same day. Any new liveries go into an isolation paddock, and are wormed on the first day. After 7 days isolation, and upon their poo's being 'clean', they are able to join the herd.

CrazyMare, thank you everso much for the suggestion. I'm going to google them and see if they can help us too! If they did talks, I think it would be advantageous if they did it at our yard also, so that liveries understand this subject more! It is proving to be a massive headache at our yard at the moment! xx
 
I went to a talk last week by Minster Vets, which was on colic but included their current advice re worming. What they said was more or less exactly the same as another talk I went to a few weeks ago given by Dr Jane Hodgkinson of Liverpool University (she is a scientist researching wormer resistance). The programme both talks were recommending was to do worm counts throughout the grazing season and to only give wormers to the horses that came back with counts of over 200 eggs per gram (epg). Some horses are just more susceptible to worms than others, so Dr Hodgkinson's research indicated that teh vast majority of the worm eggs being passed out onto the pasture would come from approximately 20% of the herd, and these were the ones to target with anthelmintics (wormers). Ivermectin or pyrantel were recommended generally over moxidectin as anecdotally there are reports coming through that there is starting to be resistance to moxidectin, whereas there hasn't been to ivermectin in the 17 years it has been on the market, and the risk is that as moxidectin and ivermectin are chemically similar, worms that become resistant to moxidectin will also have resistance to ivermectin and we will be left without any effective wormers. Dr Hodgkinson also recommended rotating the drugs used annually so ivermectin one year, pyrantel the next. The aim isn't to have the horse completely worm free, wormers that are too effective help resistant worms to survive and propagate in a survival of the fittest type environment and you are actually helping the "bad" worms to breed if you do this. Studies in other animals have shown that a small worm burden seems to have some health benefits.

Minster vets recommended having the blood test for tapeworms done once in each horse's lifetime. This will show either a low or high result and you then know that horse's predisposition to tapeworm - if it was a low result give a double dose of pyrantel or single dose of praziquantel once a year, if it was a high result then give twice a year. They also advised that poo picking can be done once a fortnight and still be effective depending on the intensity of stocking on the land - basically if you have lawns and roughs in the field, the horses will not choose to graze near the rough areas with droppings in if they can help it, but if the land is overstocked then they will have to graze the rough areas sooner than they would otherwise and this is when they will be grazing the grasses that the worm larvae are attached to.

There isn't a test for encysted small redworm larvae and these are the biggest problem we have at the minute. Dr Hodgkinson is trying to develop a test for these at the minute. It was therefore recommended that all horses be wormed with either moxidectin once a year round about now as these encysted worms are getting ready to hibernate for the winter (ivermectin isn't as effective as moxidectin against the encysted worms), or fenbendazole over 5 days (Panacur Guard). This is the only real use for Panacur now as there is widespread resistance to it.

Interestingly Minster Vets also recommended dosing all new horses to the yard with Equest Pramox (praziquantel and moxidectin combined), as their experience was that the way moxidectin works expels the worms in a slower manner and so reduces the colic risk of a mass expulsion happening, and means you start with a clean slate as dosing with that product will get rid of most of the worms the horse is harbouring.
 
You should ALWAYS be egg counting anyway, then once you know what you're dealing with, you can decide on strategy. It's not a case of egg count and poo pick OR use chemicals. If you egg count, you can still use a chemical control programme, but you use it more strategiacally. You might be lucky in that some of your groups might have very low counts and therefore not need either chemicals or poo picking. As mentioned already, you need to consider tapeworm seperately.
 
Massive thanks for such an indepth reply Bethie. What you have detailed above is exactly why the liveries are wanting to use a worm count programme instead. Funnily enough, it was Minsters in our area (North Lincolnshire) that advised us the same.

The only issue which seems to be here with the worm count programme for our yard, is the fact we have several horses in a herd on limited grazing acreage (two fields, between 3 - 6 acres per field, per herd), and people do not want to poo pick. The farmer certainly doesn't want to harrow potential infected muck.

There is no way we can convince our farmer to make us individual paddocks (we currently have 26 horses, maximum capacity of 30). But then, there is no way we can guarantee everyone would pull their weight poo picking the herd fields.

Urgh! So basically, there's no solution for our yards 'herd set up' without following a system somebody won't be happy with. Basically it will be a case of continuing a worming programme and have our poo taken care of by the farmer harrowing, or, worm count programme but all liveries having to poo pick! GAH! I predict there will be some unhappy people either way. :( xx
 
That's a very fair and valid point soloequestrian. This is something I will put forward to the farmer, at least that way we will know what we are dealing with for each horse, in each herd. Thanks xx
 
It all depends on how you maintain the land.

I have 3 horses on 5 acres split into 9 half acre (ish) paddocks.
I keep my colt alone and the two mares together.
I swap paddocks roughly every 4 weeks.
I don't poo pick.
I worm count before I change paddocks, if they have worms I double dose and don't change paddocks for another week.
I leave the paddocks to stand for 4 weeks each then harrow.
After the harrow the sheep go on (just 6)
By the time the horses come round to the original paddock it has been rested for 6 months
I have gone from worm belly youngsters to no worms in 8 months and we have only been here 16 months :)

I have had a couple of loans during this time and always kept them in for 5 days to worm before turning them out

As long as the paddocks are rested enough and sheep are grazed it seems to be enough to keep the worms at bay...
 
That sounds like a really good system Inky. I must say, when a friends pony had a problem with Pinworm, I did a fair bit of reading up. One website had said that the field he was in needed to be rested for a minimum of 4 months, to ensure any potential eggs on the land would die off. I had heard/read something about sheep grazing the land benefited horses, but I can't remember for the life of me as to why?

Our problem at the yard is that we do not have enough acreage to set up such a system for the amount of horses we have. But amongst that, I know the farmer won't even consider it, as he won't do individual paddocks.

Thanks for your input, muchly appreciated! xx :)
 
At my previous yard we always just wormed every 13 weeks with Equest and Equest Pramox. Altho it did concern me about them getting immune with the products. These fields were poo picked daily.

At my present yard we dont poo pick the 10 acre + fields but poo pick the smaller ones. These large fields get harrowed.All horses are on a worm count worming programme every 10 weeks. All horses are sitting at zero and it saves the unecessary of over worming by giving them a wormer ever 13 weeks.
 
AHA, finally, someone that runs as herds using the worm count programme! :)

So Oscar, what happens if a horse were to have a high count and requires worming? Does that mean the full herd has to be wormed? If it was in a field you normally harrow, would you have to poo pick, or simply rest it for 'x amount of time' for any potential eggs to die off?

We have used the Equest and Equest Pramox plans for the last several years. Upon advice suggesting this programme will eventually not work, due to the horses potentially becoming immune, other programmes were looked into.

We were advised to use a different group of wormers which have totally different ingredients to the plans we have used in previous years. We were advised to steer clear of Equest for a minimum of a year. So the last two times we have wormed, we used the Panacur 5 day Guard, and the last for tapeworm, we double dosed with Strongid P.

Liveries have looked into this further, and with the suggestion from the vet, they want to do the worm count system. Although, the vet didn't recommend it as frequent as 10 weeks, nor did they suggest the blood test for tape worm (someone else mentioned this in their response above somewhere).

The farmer has been advised by the worming advisor from the company we get our wormers from, but now intends seeking advice from a vet he trusts. Then I have done this thread, and this is where we are at now! *Sighs*!!! xx
 
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Some really interesting stuff! Its got me reading!!! uhoh! lol

And sheep are good as they eat the worms but worms that live in horses cant live in sheep. So they die. bye bye worms! :)

But not everyone has a supply of sheep........
 
That's it Emily, I knew there was a reason sheep benefited horse grazing somehow! Perhaps I could convince our farmer to get some, but then again, our fencing isn't 'sheep proof' so I imagine that will be a no go area too lol! <-- Please note I am choosing to laugh rather then cry! ;) xx :D
 
I feel your pain!! been there done that! Yard politics can be so tiring!! and all you want is the best for the horses!!!

Keep going though! your doing a great job trying to work it all out!! good luck to you!! Hope you findsomething that works!
 
Rudey said:
That's it Emily, I knew there was a reason sheep benefited horse grazing somehow! Perhaps I could convince our farmer to get some, but then again, our fencing isn't 'sheep proof' so I imagine that will be a no go area too lol! <-- Please note I am choosing to laugh rather then cry! ;) xx :D
Click to expand...

Yeah sheep are good at escaping... They are also really good at trying to commit suicide :rolleyes:
 
Bethie thanks for that excellent info from the two talks you've been too. First thing about the whole worming saga that I've actually been able to understand so much appreciated for posting.
 
Thanks,! :) I know for a fact it's not going to be easy - yard politics never are. It doesn't matter what the outcome will be, somebody isn't going to be happy, and either way, the back fire will effect us all. :( I'm not looking forward to it - any negativity is really grinding me down lately, I can't be doing with the confrontation - which on this subject, is inevitable and predict a mass of chaos between all parties involved! :rolleyes: AAAAARRRRRGH! Get me out of here! :eek: xx
 
Rudey said:
AHA, finally, someone that runs as herds using the worm count programme! :)

So Oscar, what happens if a horse were to have a high count and requires worming? Does that mean the full herd has to be wormed? If it was in a field you normally harrow, would you have to poo pick, or simply rest it for 'x amount of time' for any potential eggs to die off?

We have used the Equest and Equest Pramox plans for the last several years. Upon advice suggesting this programme will eventually not work, due to the horses potentially becoming immune, other programmes were looked into.
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Only the horses that show worms has to be wormed. So all the low or zero counts dont get wormed and the medium and high counts get wormed.

No we dont poo pick even if worms are found. I have to say the second last worm count that was done showed a couple horses with worms and 5 horses were worm free. The 2 horses with worms were wormed and the fields was horrowed. We left the horses in the same field and did a repeat count 10 weeks later and none of the horses in that field had worms. But we normally harrow the fields and leave the empty for 4 weeks.
 
Huge thank you's in taking the time to reply! Borderreiver, in our sitution, with the herds, do we need to poo pick the fields bearing in mind we have limited acreage, and only two fields per herd to which we regularly rotate? xx
 
This is an interesting and informative thread. But I would like to add other points not raised here. Before opening our "commercial yard" all our horses were kept at home with plenty of land & each horse/pony was with us for long enough to have worm counts & treat accordingly. After a while we could miss some routine seasons as the dung tests gave healthy scores. We always blood tested in Spring & Autumn (which is quite costly)
Now though in a large yard where we have liveries we find things have much higher results. We all have the same programme. Keep to paddocks for only 2 horses of same sex but of course people change horses, some move off or on, horses have to change paddocks to accomodate. Generally things do have to change to cater for liveries needs on a regular basis. (New horse/different sex etc) I have found over the last 2 years that different horses on the same regime can have hugely different worm counts & worm burdens.Is it because in the past they have not been on a strict regime? I dont know! I think the Farmer is correct to stick with what he believes. Afterall it is his land & must have worked for him till now.
 
I am wondering what he means by 'infected' muck? Does he mean chemically contaminated as I would have thought any droppings done by horses with worms will be 'infected' or infectious. I do not believe harrowing wormy droppings around a field to be sensible in any way, shape or form and this is confirmed in essence by a very enlightening (and free) 'webinar' you can all access at www.thehorse.com

Worm count, worm as necessary, blood test for tapeworm and clean the grazing by daily poo-picking, resting the grass and cross grazing with sheep. You must remember not to let your horses nibble possibly dirty grass when out and about though!

It works for me.
 
Hello Brighteyes. I could not find the link to worming on the site you suggested. (Not very pc literate !)
Your comment though is interesting. Re infected muck. I read the Farmer believing , If horse is wormed & housed correctly after worming any droppings at a later stage would be "dead" & therefore not infecting the field, therefore harrowing would be safe. Apologies if this is not correct.
 
Forgot to mention that many of my clients will tell me they do not need to follow our yard programme as they pay their Vet for an annual programme. This always consists of paying an annual fee,owner taking a dung sample to the practice at the specified time, if a wormer is required one is included in the annual fee. I challenged this as owners told me the horse did not need worming, therefore no wormer provided. Owners believed this as the dung test proved it. I then asked both owner & Vet whether the necessary blood test had been done. (especially autumn) & only when cornered did the Vet admit that this was not covered in the annual plan. Not everyone knows this fact & I feel it is wrong of Vets to maximise on profit of a programme that is actually not done correctly.
 
brighteyes said:
I am wondering what he means by 'infected' muck? Does he mean chemically contaminated as I would have thought any droppings done by horses with worms will be 'infected' or infectious. I do not believe harrowing wormy droppings around a field to be sensible in any way, shape or form and this is confirmed in essence by a very enlightening (and free) 'webinar' you can all access at www.thehorse.com

Worm count, worm as necessary, blood test for tapeworm and clean the grazing by daily poo-picking, resting the grass and cross grazing with sheep. You must remember not to let your horses nibble possibly dirty grass when out and about though!

It works for me.
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I don't poo pick I rest and rotate with sheep. I have been 8 months worm free! Poo picking is not essential as long as you can rest your land long enough and add a species that is not infected by worms.

Next year we're going one better and reseeding too - we're going to let the horses graze it right down, almost bare, and then seed on the top. We have a lot of clover and other goodies that I wouldn't want to lose by ploughing.
 
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