Worming question

[Widgeon]

So what wormer to use for encysted red worm that isn’t overkill? (Plain Equest? Not Pramox)

I'm using the five day Panacur Guard for my colt. He had an incredibly low FEC count but I wanted to be sure (not very scientific I admit) so he's getting Panacur just in case of encysted.

ETA older horse had Pramox in December because he had a higher count. Which figures as he hadn't been wormed for a couple of years (intentionally - I worm count and only worm if they're above about 250). I'm sure there will be flaws in this approach but it appears to have been working well. Now I know a bit more I'd be very wary of starting a new horse on Pramox but I know mine has had it before with no issues. He has a stainless steel digestive system.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I’ve got myself in a pickle.
Both horses were FEC in December and both were low counts; no wormer advised.
Also had equisal tests and one came back just high enough to warrant worming with Equimax as advised by the vet. This was done Christmas week.
Now my YO is pushing for me to worm for encysted redworm.
Normally both horses would have had Equest Pramox in late December which would have covered this….but I followed the vets advice
So what wormer to use for encysted red worm that isn’t overkill? (Plain Equest? Not Pramox)
And for the one treated with Equimax in December, do I need to leave more of a gap between wormers?

As I’ve explained in previous posts despite a consistently low egg count and being wormed with Equest Pramox once a year my older horse when blood tested for encysted in November for a yard move had a very high reading so I don’t think you can rely on egg counts alone. I used plain Equest for the encysted as tapeworm test was negative. I may well blood test again to see if it has worked as I may need to change wormer.

 

[Widgeon]

As I’ve explained in previous posts despite a consistently low egg count and being wormed with Equest Pramox once a year my older horse when blood tested for encysted in November for a yard move had a very high reading so I don’t think you can rely on egg counts alone. I used plain Equest for the encysted as tapeworm test was negative. I may well blood test again to see if it has worked as I may need to change wormer.

I don't understand - I thought Pramox was moxidectin + praziquantel, while Equest was moxidectin only. And it's the moxidectin that acts against encysted redworm. So why would Equest be any more effective against encysted redworm than Pramox?

or have I misunderstood?

 

[Exasperated]

I don't understand - I thought Pramox was moxidectin + praziquantel, while Equest was moxidectin only. And it's the moxidectin that acts against encysted redworm. So why would Equest be any more effective against encysted redworm than Pramox?

or have I misunderstood?

No, you have got it RIGHT, moxidectin is the agent against encysted within Pramox.
Praziquantel is the ingredient which also covers tapes - if you’ve a reason to be worried about tapes. Combined, a very powerful cocktail which should knock out everything, including sometimes the horse, because some react very badly to Pramox (also to Equest, but less often).
So vet advice to annually worm with Pramox - against encysted and everything else ( advice which has not been uncommon) - is debateable, particularly since there is increasing reported resistance to moxidectin (as with ALL other anthelmintics).
Someone earlier on this forum had been using Pramox annually, yet a blood test for encysted showed positive, which could reflect moxidectin resistance in her area, or exposure since last worming.
Panacur Five Day Guard is a more gradual attack on encysted reds, with a higher safety margin for dosage than moxidectin. Temperatures this last week should have been ideal! Some vets recommend always dosing 50kg higher than horse’s weight, and under dosing has been a huge problem causing resistance. And do remove all droppings, ideally routinely. Pasture management is significant, altho doesn’t make money for pharmaceutical companies.
A blood test would demonstrate whether the encysteds have been evicted by whichever wormer you used, or not, so unless you know a nurse or phlebotomist, would have to have vet out for that.
Thoroughly disillusioned with ‘experts’: it was the veterinary profession 1980s onwards promoting with total confidence the routine worming of foals on studs every four weeks up to age 1 year, then every eight weeks all adult life; enthusiastically endorsing every new product - like moxidectin and then Pramox version - without regard to growing case studies of harm caused; touting FWECs as cure-all for infestations and resistances, which sadly they ain’t; and now routine blood tests for encysted reds and tapes (because it appears the saliva test has issues, too) -
I haven’t read the ‘Canter’ recommendation yet (earlier), but likely to do so with an extremely sceptical and jaundiced eye.

 

[Widgeon]

No, you have got it RIGHT, moxidectin is the agent against encysted within Pramox.

Thank you! As per your post I was planning to blood test both of mine (baby and older horse) in a few weeks when the vet is out to continue the baby's vaccination program. I'll have to check what the cost will come to but if it isn't huge then I would like to have definite info on what's going on in there.

 

[Exasperated]

I’ve got myself in a pickle.
Both horses were FEC in December and both were low counts; no wormer advised.
Also had equisal tests and one came back just high enough to warrant worming with Equimax as advised by the vet. This was done Christmas week.
Now my YO is pushing for me to worm for encysted redworm.
Normally both horses would have had Equest Pramox in late December which would have covered this….but I followed the vets advice
So what wormer to use for encysted red worm that isn’t overkill? (Plain Equest? Not Pramox)
And for the one treated with Equimax in December, do I need to leave more of a gap between wormers?

If against encysted reds, Equest (moxidectin) is sufficient, or Panacur Five Day Guard. You will be fine worming three / four weeks after Equimax, but always leave far longer after ever using a moxidectin product - that is active in the gut for a very long time.
You will need to subsequently blood test to determine whether was successful, because FWECs don’t evidence encysted. Good luck

 

[Exasperated]

Thank you! As per your post I was planning to blood test both of mine (baby and older horse) in a few weeks when the vet is out to continue the baby's vaccination program. I'll have to check what the cost will come to but if it isn't huge then I would like to have definite info on what's going on in there.

Sounds like a good plan! Good luck

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I don't understand - I thought Pramox was moxidectin + praziquantel, while Equest was moxidectin only. And it's the moxidectin that acts against encysted redworm. So why would Equest be any more effective against encysted redworm than Pramox?

or have I misunderstood?

Equest just has moxidectin which is for encysted. Equest Pramox has both moxidectin and praziquantel the latter does tape.

My older horse is clear of tape, had no eggs seen but has had high encysted count shown on blood test so I only need the moxidectin. Therefore I’m using Equest. If he was positive for tape as well as encysted I could and have used Equest Pramox.

 

[Squeak]

Probably a bit irrelevant on this thread as it's been mentioned a few times and people seem aware of it but just in case I can save even one horse - Please do think very carefully before using Equest Pramox, I lost my beloved horse that I'd had for 20 years after using it. I can see it could be the type of thing that you hear stories of and never think it will happen to you especially if you've used it before but it can and does happen.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Probably a bit irrelevant on this thread as it's been mentioned a few times and people seem aware of it but just in case I can save even one horse - Please do think very carefully before using Equest Pramox, I lost my beloved horse that I'd had for 20 years after using it. I can see it could be the type of thing that you hear stories of and never think it will happen to you especially if you've used it before but it can and does happen.

Thank you for raising awareness, I know someone who's horse died within 24 hours of taking Pramox too. Really sorry for your loss Squeak <3

 

[Exasperated]

Probably a bit irrelevant on this thread as it's been mentioned a few times and people seem aware of it but just in case I can save even one horse - Please do think very carefully before using Equest Pramox, I lost my beloved horse that I'd had for 20 years after using it. I can see it could be the type of thing that you hear stories of and never think it will happen to you especially if you've used it before but it can and does happen.

Very sorry for you, can entirely empathise, it’s very bitter when you were only trying to do ‘the right thing’ and that thing was advised by vets and ‘experts’.
I lost a lovely homebred courtesy of Equest, and subsequently discovered was far from alone in this. And that was right at the start of its availability in UK.
Moxidectin is extremely powerful, very long lasting, and therefore potentially far more hazardous than other families of wormer. Mix it with yet another chemical, as in Pramox, and your horse’s system is dealing with a LOT.
Horse metabolisms, like humans’, alter over time, and just because has seemed ‘safe’ unfortunately does not mean will remain so.
You need to use moxidectin formats with extreme caution, and certainly not just because some glib ‘expert’ thinks you should.