Worms - learn to live with them?

lindsayH

lindsayH

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Has anyone else had a problem with persistent worms? It's not something I've ever had a problem with before in any of my horses, or those I've been responsible for.
I have a 5yo mare and an aged gelding sharing 1.5 acres. They are wormed regularly, usually with a macrocyclic lactone but sometimes I use the other chemical groups. I'm an SQP so I'm happy with that side of things. The problem is, they seem to have a constant worm burden. Almost every time I worm, their poos are full of dead worms, especially this time of year. It looks like a mix of species, I think mostly small red worm and pinworm. If I'm a couple of weeks late it's even worse.
Their field is small and poorly drained, but it is poo-picked every day. I'm wondering if I just have to accept that the field is carrying a heavy worm burden and there is nothing I can do about it, but I would be interested to know if anyone else has had the same problem and if so, what they did.
 
Find temporary grazing elsewhere and plough it up and reseed? A bit drastic pehaps. Or lease it for grazing with sheep or cattle for several months?

Personally, I'd do the first, after getting the soil tested. It shouldn't cost a fortune. and maybe a neighbour could do it when he does his?
 
The OP highlights the madness of the system. They are an SQP and yet seek the random thoughts of the Internet to help them with what on the face of it seems like a serious problem.

Seek advice from an experienced equine vet. They will likely want to do some testing of various kinds. Expect to pay for their advice.
 
I wouldn't be wanting to live with them at all. As Dry Rot says, can you get them off the grazing for a while and get it grazed by other livestock? If it is carrying such a high worm load then constant worming is not only ineffective but not ideal for your horses' health. It does sound like a small area for two. Personally I would look for new grazing and speak to the vet.
 
Dry Rot said:
...and what is an SQP??
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'Suitably Qualified Person' for dispensing medicines - doesn't sound anywhere near as exciting when you don't use the acronynm... I'm an SQR for warfarin and it's antidote and blood products - it doesn't mean you are qualified to prescribe everything. Tack shop owners etc can go on a course so they are an SQR to prescribe worming meds - doesn't seem like the course is much cop...
 
As an SQP, you will know that a minority of horses are so called 'high shedders', I've got one. Maybe yours fall into this category.

You say that you are happy with your worm treatment program. Have you asked advice from experts who will have encountered similar issues and be able to advise, eg Westgate Labs?
 
My mother's horse were wormed with Eqvalan duo last year and had lots of dead worms in the poo (redworm and tapeworms). We then used Equest Pramox 2 weeks later and wormed again with Equest Pramox 6 months later. At last worming, 1 was clear in her poo and the gelding had a small amount of small redworms (which I thought were possibly encysted so not too worried).
Perhaps adjusting the timing of worming so the worms don't reach the adult stage would help decrease the amount?
 
Stranger 1612 is right - get professional advice! A high worm burden can predispose for colic. At the very least it wastes feed (the worms eat it...) can impair condition and performance. It can also be indicative of an impaired immune system - especially with persistent pin worm. No - I would not accept living with a high worm burden. Get your vet's opinion.
 
Shay said:
Stranger 1612 is right - get professional advice! A high worm burden can predispose for colic. At the very least it wastes feed (the worms eat it...) can impair condition and performance. It can also be indicative of an impaired immune system - especially with persistent pin worm. No - I would not accept living with a high worm burden. Get your vet's opinion.
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This - plus a high encysted red worm burden can cause perforation.

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As I am sure you know as an SQP pin worm can be contracted from rubbing on fences/stables and from grooming kits as well as pasture so you need to be careful about hygiene to stop reinfection.

http://www.intelligentworming.co.uk/doyouknow-aboutworms-pinworms.asp

Do you graze your horses outside the fields eg at shows or out hacking where other horses could have been pooing?

Horses like people do not always respond in the same way to drugs so it may mean you need a different program for your horses. Best to raise your concerns they may refer you to a specialist who might be able to help you.

Younger and older horses do seem to be more prone to worms so as you have a younger and older horse in the same field that too might be an issue. How long have they been sharing the field? There have been some recommendations not to turn out youngsters with older horses as youngster are more prone to worms and tend to be high sheeders and older horses tend to have less stronger immune system so more likely to get infestations. (Not that I understand how the immunity works this is just from information I have read}
 
Have you resistance tested your horses?

We always had a high worm burden despite bes efforts. Then two years ago, we resistance tested a herd of 35 -- we identified several horses who were our "problem". Under veterinary guidance, these horses were re-dosed with an alternative product (in one horse's case, a third product was then used as well!). The entire herd was them worm counted every 2 weeks. One problem horse (who had had 2 wormers) and one of the initially clear horses started shedding eggs within 6 weeks. They moved to weekly counts and were found to have an increase in fec of ~ 50epg per week, so their count was going up quickly. The rest of the herd remained clear for the 10 weeks of the wormer then picked up burden again.

At last we understand the situation, understood who are our "problem" horses, which horses appear to carry resistant worms, etc ... We adjusted our field rotation to suit our new understanding.

Within 24 months we now have a situation where the herd is mostly 0-200 epg (before we had VERY high counts!), we don't necessarily use the same product on every horse, we routine resistance test after horses are wormed to make sure it worked ... The bi-weekly counts were absolutely critical to understanding all the horses in our herd, how different wormers affected them, how field rotation affected them, etc. It was not a cheap exercise but has already saved us money in wormer reduction and the pastures are actually looking better as well.
 
Why on earth would you assume I hadn't done that already?!? As well as an SQP I'm also a veterinary nurse. I have spoken to several vet colleagues as well as my own equine vet. Both horses have had a general health screen blood test recently, I run them once a year usually, and both are fine. None of the vets could suggest any other tests worth doing. My SQP training is degree level and took two years so I resent the implication that it is substandard. I am perfectly well aware of all the usual parasite reducing pasture management measures and have a carefully tailored worming programme. All I did was ask if others have found themselves in the same situation!

stranger1612 said:
The OP highlights the madness of the system. They are an SQP and yet seek the random thoughts of the Internet to help them with what on the face of it seems like a serious problem.

Seek advice from an experienced equine vet. They will likely want to do some testing of various kinds. Expect to pay for their advice.
Click to expand...
 
Resting the field is the obvious low cost way to help the issue .
However I would not be wanting such horses moved on to my land so it might be easier said than done .
 
EQUIDAE said:
'Suitably Qualified Person' for dispensing medicines - doesn't sound anywhere near as exciting when you don't use the acronynm... I'm an SQR for warfarin and it's antidote and blood products - it doesn't mean you are qualified to prescribe everything. Tack shop owners etc can go on a course so they are an SQR to prescribe worming meds - doesn't seem like the course is much cop...[/Q

The qualification is degree level and in my case, took two years of study and two days of exams. I find your comments quite offensive and inaccurate and ill-informed in every aspect apart from one - I agree that the title is quite ridiculous!
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Thank you for your helpful suggestion. Yes, I do believe the young horse is a high shedder. I did speak to my lab who were very helpful but just told me I was doing the right thing already. Everyone agrees that the worming programme is not the issue - they are just getting constantly reinfected. The pasture was rested for about 18 months - I moved them to a local livery yard for the duration.

Tiddlypom said:
As an SQP, you will know that a minority of horses are so called 'high shedders', I've got one. Maybe yours fall into this category.

You say that you are happy with your worm treatment program. Have you asked advice from experts who will have encountered similar issues and be able to advise, eg Westgate Labs?
Click to expand...
 
MissTyc said:
Have you resistance tested your horses?

We always had a high worm burden despite bes efforts. Then two years ago, we resistance tested a herd of 35 -- we identified several horses who were our "problem". Under veterinary guidance, these horses were re-dosed with an alternative product (in one horse's case, a third product was then used as well!). The entire herd was them worm counted every 2 weeks. One problem horse (who had had 2 wormers) and one of the initially clear horses started shedding eggs within 6 weeks. They moved to weekly counts and were found to have an increase in fec of ~ 50epg per week, so their count was going up quickly. The rest of the herd remained clear for the 10 weeks of the wormer then picked up burden again.

At last we understand the situation, understood who are our "problem" horses, which horses appear to carry resistant worms, etc ... We adjusted our field rotation to suit our new understanding.

Within 24 months we now have a situation where the herd is mostly 0-200 epg (before we had VERY high counts!), we don't necessarily use the same product on every horse, we routine resistance test after horses are wormed to make sure it worked ... The bi-weekly counts were absolutely critical to understanding all the horses in our herd, how different wormers affected them, how field rotation affected them, etc. It was not a cheap exercise but has already saved us money in wormer reduction and the pastures are actually looking better as well.
Click to expand...

Thank you, it's great to hear from someone who has been in a similar situation. Sometimes you just need to know you are not alone! I'm especially interested to hear that you've done resistance testing as although it's fairly common for farmers to do it, not many horse owners seem to. I guess because herds are often owned by many people and because we have fewer anthelmintic options. My vet said that it wouldn't be of benefit in my situation, but as it has clearly been a great deal of use to you I will run it past her again.
 
SO1 said:
As I am sure you know as an SQP pin worm can be contracted from rubbing on fences/stables and from grooming kits as well as pasture so you need to be careful about hygiene to stop reinfection.

http://www.intelligentworming.co.uk/doyouknow-aboutworms-pinworms.asp

Do you graze your horses outside the fields eg at shows or out hacking where other horses could have been pooing?

Horses like people do not always respond in the same way to drugs so it may mean you need a different program for your horses. Best to raise your concerns they may refer you to a specialist who might be able to help you.

Younger and older horses do seem to be more prone to worms so as you have a younger and older horse in the same field that too might be an issue. How long have they been sharing the field? There have been some recommendations not to turn out youngsters with older horses as youngster are more prone to worms and tend to be high sheeders and older horses tend to have less stronger immune system so more likely to get infestations. (Not that I understand how the immunity works this is just from information I have read}
Click to expand...

You know, I do think that this combination of horses may not be helping the situation. It's difficult isn't it, as it's a natural thing to do, get a younger horse as the first one gets older! I only have the two so they're stuck with each other.
My fencing has just all been redone and I will creosote it regularly. They do technically have separate grooming kits but I wouldn't put it past me to grab a brush from the wrong one first thing in the morning in the dark!
The old boy is retired and the mare is not allowed to graze anywhere when she's out and about.
 
To reply to OP's thread...it would be good to get on board with the vet and a prescribed worming schedule/rotation, including testing, before....and a month after, but whatever he prescribes, but regular. You'll get to know the enemy...what worms flourish and at what time of year and lots of other stuff and you get smart about it and with the vet, get a plan for the paddock. I would plow it up. It needs air, its been tamped down and made tired and I would seed with all advantage for strength, variety, safety, deep roots, etc. I'd do this in the middle of the paddock. Around the edge of the paddock, I'd make a track, hopefully, 10' wide around the outside perimeter. Easy with electric fencing. The horses would be in a dry lot quarantine parcel getting cleaned out of worms, while the other was going on. I'd start dumping gravel, especially in the boggiest places on the track. I'd place slow feeders around the perimeter to encourage movement, salt somewhere else, water somewhere else. And if things were right by the planted grass, the horses would be allowed out into the middle for only certain lengths of times. Support life and things will take care of themselves. The poo on the track, hitting gravel, doesn't have a chance with worms, not with you coming along and picking it up every day. Make sure their minerals/diet are adequate, so that they are not attracted to eating poo in the meantime. Drainage is excellent, thrush is gone, hooves develop to rock crushing because they do their homework on rocks, horses are on a mission all day. Throw a couple of logs on the track, just for the fun of it. Neighbouring farmers are a great source of information and help. It doesn't matter how big or small that paddock is, make it their Paradise. Make it work for all of you.
Your need to worm is really scarey to me. The gelding is going to show it first. He has less of a defense. If I couldn't get out of there, I'd be changing the ground and the whole environmental situation of that paddock, even if its a wheelbarrow at a time. You'll be good in all things for years to come. Hope this helps ...
 
missyclare said:
To reply to OP's thread...it would be good to get on board with the vet and a prescribed worming schedule/rotation, including testing, before....and a month after, but whatever he prescribes, but regular. You'll get to know the enemy...what worms flourish and at what time of year and lots of other stuff and you get smart about it and with the vet, get a plan for the paddock. I would plow it up. It needs air, its been tamped down and made tired and I would seed with all advantage for strength, variety, safety, deep roots, etc. I'd do this in the middle of the paddock. Around the edge of the paddock, I'd make a track, hopefully, 10' wide around the outside perimeter. Easy with electric fencing. The horses would be in a dry lot quarantine parcel getting cleaned out of worms, while the other was going on. I'd start dumping gravel, especially in the boggiest places on the track. I'd place slow feeders around the perimeter to encourage movement, salt somewhere else, water somewhere else. And if things were right by the planted grass, the horses would be allowed out into the middle for only certain lengths of times. Support life and things will take care of themselves. The poo on the track, hitting gravel, doesn't have a chance with worms, not with you coming along and picking it up every day. Make sure their minerals/diet are adequate, so that they are not attracted to eating poo in the meantime. Drainage is excellent, thrush is gone, hooves develop to rock crushing because they do their homework on rocks, horses are on a mission all day. Throw a couple of logs on the track, just for the fun of it. Neighbouring farmers are a great source of information and help. It doesn't matter how big or small that paddock is, make it their Paradise. Make it work for all of you.
Your need to worm is really scarey to me. The gelding is going to show it first. He has less of a defense. If I couldn't get out of there, I'd be changing the ground and the whole environmental situation of that paddock, even if its a wheelbarrow at a time. You'll be good in all things for years to come. Hope this helps ...
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I love this post - thank you! I had actually ordered 5 tonnes of road plannings in order to make a track across the whole of the top of the field. Unfortunately, despite me telling them several (many) times that I had no access for a 10 ton lorry, and choosing the company specifically because they said they could deliver in two smaller loads in a small truck, they sent it in a 10 ton truck! The truck got stuck in the drive before eventually managing to reverse out, but so far they have refused to refund my money. Obviously this is something that is only possible in summer as I am struggling to even get a wheelbarrow in and out of the field now. As soon as the ground is firm enough again I'll crack on with it. I don't know that there is much I can do to improve the drainage without spending serious money. The ground is horrible clay.
I am worried about ploughing and reseeding. Am I right in thinking that it would be a year before it could be grazed? I have a separate, small manage-sized paddock that they graze for a couple of months in summer while the main field is resting but have nowhere to put them for a year. Also, what would the benefit be over resting for 18 months? At the moment, it gets sprayed for weeds in Spring and reseeded in bare patches. It is pretty poor quality grazing as it gets so wet and churned up in winter despite my best efforts. At the moment it is divided into 4 with electric fencing and rotated.
Vit/mins wise, they get a full dose of Benevit Advance every day and have constant access to a magnesium enriched salt block.
 
EQUIDAE said:
If you're going to do this make sure you apply for planning permission for change of use or you could find yourself digging it all up.
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Oh dear, really? I could do without that. Do I need planning permission to put down a strip of hardcore? Crap, I hadn't even thought of that...
 
lindsayH said:
Oh dear, really? I could do without that. Do I need planning permission to put down a strip of hardcore? Crap, I hadn't even thought of that...
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Yeah unfortunately it is change of use - you are effectively turning grazing into something else. They could even argue that you are putting a 'road' down...
 
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