Worms - Tape Worm / Blood Tests - PLEASE HELP

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Becca80

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Hi All
Please Read and any advice would be greatfully received as i am really Struggling...

I have a 3year old Westphalian Wormblood / Cob, standing around 16hh. Owned her since birth. Her and the three she shares a field with are all wormed regularly (though Evidiently im doing something wrong...) Never had an issue with worms or Weight loss prior to this.

before Christmas she had dropped weight, was standing in the Field looking sorry for herself, she has always been field kept, but didnt seem right.

I got her into a stable, Fed Adlib hay, and a simple feed as this is all she has ever had. I consulted the vet as i suspected worms, they advised a poo sample to be sent off.

A week later the results came back at 0, i still suspected worms and know that certain ones do not show up in a worm count, discussed this with the vet again and arranged a visit and blood tests.

Vet checked everything, Heart, gut action / noise, legs , Teeth, eyes everything she could, i asked what she suspected and she said worms, the mare looks healthy other than further weight loss.

As the bloods would take a week to come back, i put her on a five day Panacur Guard. The next day she had red worm in her droppings, so i was feeling a little better.

The bloods eventually came back, high globules indicating worms, and Tape worm, now apparantly a very high Tape worm infestation is 0.7, hers was 1.22!! Vet advised Equitape or double dose of Strongid P, and dose for 500kg.

Did the Equitape on Sunday around 11;00am, i gave her 550kg, it is Tuesday now and i would have expected to see something in her dropppings by now for such a huge infestation but nothing... not a sausage, spoke to the vets again and they advised to worm again in a couple of days with Equitape again and give her 600kg worth.

Now im strugglnig with all of this, my Mare is still dropping weight and i really feel like im getting nowhere fast, i have upped her feed, included Alfa A oil and Barley rings to Ossi Chaff and Mix, she is having around 4lb of feed twice a day for a horse not in work i thought that was ample. Ive tried to keep it dry incase she starts scouring etc .

Can any body please give me some advice, i feel like a complete idiot and feel out of my depth, i have followed advice but i dont feel im getting any results, do i worm again but use Strongid P due to the fact the Equitape didnt work? there is only about 2cm worth of the first tube that i didnt use, if 550kg of wormer didnt work is an extra 50kg of it going to sort her out if i give her a full tube as directed?

Please if any one can help id really apreciate it...
 
I think I would ask your vet to contact the manufacturer's vet for further advice, she could be 525 to 600 kg, if in good condition, but more likely 485 to 525 now.
Are you sure she did not spit some Equitape out?
Yes it is a worry.
Was she done with something for encysted redworms in the autumn, and has this been ruled out now.
Last thing you want is a colic.
 
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HI,
Thank you, they just advised to give another wormer, the same brand, but the full 600kg, i just cant see that that bit extra would make a lot of difference, but feel that i do not know enough about it all...
Thank you
 
I am with you there.
It is not likely your vet contacted the manufacturer's vet, which is what I would want, to be honest, but there will no one else who can advise with authority.
 
I wouldn't want to just keep stuffing wormers down my horse - you are risking colic if she still has a high burden. I think I'd be wanting a more comprehensive blood test - or a second opinion....
 
jenni999 said:
I wouldn't want to just keep stuffing wormers down my horse - you are risking colic if she still has a high burden. I think I'd be wanting a more comprehensive blood test - or a second opinion....
Click to expand...
Yes I wondered if the bloods were tested for other problems, it is not likely, but the fact remains that the tapeworm is positive,therefore any other abnormality cannot be treated until this has been sorted.
If the vet is coming out I would ask about a VIT B injection, we used to give this to racehorses who had indeterminate / blood problems and it seemed to boost them.
PS get a thermometer to monitor temp and resp twice per day, keep a record.
 
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I would suggest ringing Westgate Labs to discuss this. There have been several suspected cases of resistance when using praziquantel (Equitape) to treat tapeworm, though not proven. If you have always used this drug then that might be the problem.

I'm surprised your worm count was reported as '0' as this is not the correct way to express a clear count. It sounds as though she had encysted redworm as the Panacur then produced worms. These are non egg laying at that stage.

Youngsters are always more prone to worms and even with your good care you should not be surprised at a worm burden. She will need regular monitoring over the next few years.
 
Hi,
initially i instigated the blood tests, from what i had read on the internet regarding worms that don't show up in a poo test which is what she had and it came back 0. They even tested the poo for Salmenella which was negative also.
Apparantly they tested the bloods for everything that they could, including the Tape worm, everything like Liver, kidney function was all good, there were high globules which aparantly means inflammation which the vet indicated was due to the high worm burden she would have with such a high score, and i do not know what further blood tests can be done?
its really difficult for me, i have never had any problems ever with my horses, other than a foot abcess and i feel so out of my depth at the moment so all your comments are really apreciated.
i dont want to be shoving wormer down her either, i completely understand that, especially one that is meant to be unique to only treat the type of infestation she has and it has made no difference at all, all i can think is that i did not give her a high enough dose, but i did dose as to what the vet advised, and even at that point i was worrying all day about her getting colic. Thats why i wondered if a Strongid P double dose may be worth a try?
Thanks for all your advice, i am going to ring the vet again and ask how we can progress things, im not comfortable at all gonig to see her everyday and feel like something is going to happen.... Maybe it is worth trying a differnt vet even,
Thank you all for your help and advice, if there is a way i can contact the manufacturer i will do that as well.
thanks
 
Hi All, so i have rung Westgates lab as advised, they were wonderful. They have said that the chemical in Equitape is Praziquantel, which is quite common in Wormers, so they have advised to do the Strongid P double dose as it has a different drug, they also advised to up the dosage of it to a weight of 600kg, as the horse is 16hh and 3years old. As advised i am aware this can bring on colic, but like they have advisedI have to shift the Worm Burden so i have little choice in it really. I am going to consult the vet as well. It sounds like although i have wormed her regularly and changed brands, i have probably stupidly been giving her a similar chemical each time, which could have built up the residence i was aware of, but i thought the chnge in brands etc would eliminate this.
I feel like a very rubbish unknowledgable horse owner right now, i thought i had done the right thing, but evidently not...
Id like to thank you all for your knowledge and advice you have offered me
Thank you
 
I don't think you need "blame" yourself, to be honest I only researched things when I had a foal and others of unknown history, so had an idea what was being given in terms of ingredients, and what was needed for youngsters, but at that time all vets just gave out a sheet recommending worming every 13 weeks, and over the years this has led to resistance, its not the owners who have done this on their own!
I was considered innovative when I went for poo sampling, and twice a year worming, selecting ingredient changes, and to be honest a lot of owners think that if they use the most expensive wormer, that will be the best wormer!
I keep all details on a spreadsheet for each horse, for each year, includes diet and vet stuff, it has proved very useful.
 
The Westgate advice is spot on. There are two chemicals used for tapeworm and a number of products use one and some use the other. Normally the equitape one is more effective but not for all horses.

The best guide as to what is in each wormer and what chemical treats what type of worm, so you can be an expert person and know what's best to use is on the wormers direct web pages I've found, very clear and detailed.

http://wormers-direct.co.uk/ingredients.html
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/brands.html

Bear in mind that tapeworm incidence is increasing rapidly and (acc to my vet) horses clear in the blood test are more likely but not certain to stay clear, whereas positive tests tend to mean that the horse is susceptible to tapes so are more likely to have an issue in future - so once cleared up its worthwhile to blood test each year that horse.

I would recommend one of the B vit and iron tonics you can buy, they can perk up the system in cases like this and are nice and palatable.

The worming could bring on colic but that's more likely with a high burden of encysted red worm than tapeworm simply because the encysted red worm can build up to massive levels without showing on work counts and then all emerge en masse (either at worming if it's been left not done for ages or naturally if no worming done annually with the right chemical) than with tapeworm, with tapes the tapeworms being left there is more likely to cause the colic than the worming for tapeworm (tho it is still possible given the horse is under the weather already)

Good luck with the worming and you sound like a great owner, just one who is realising that to be the best owner you have to own the knowledge as it isn't always presented in the clearest way by companies who want to sell you stuff and also that wormers is a complicated area.
 
There is some resistance to the chemical in strongid but not for the equitape so tbh I would be surprised if strongid worked over that.

The actual blood test for tapeworm is an antibody test I can't tell from your OP if that has definitely been done... not looking for signs of inflammation (not heard the term globules for that). - eta sorry yes I think you have, that was the score.

Also worm egg counts have a number of flaws in the method so the 0 count you got could well have been a false negative depending on how the sample was taken.
 
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Hi,
Sorry if i have been unclear, but maybe i didnt ask the vet the correct questions, they advised me about blood testing regarding Tape worm and i asked them to blood test for anything that they could, they took a full syringe and divided it into around 10 different capsules to be sent off for testing. While waiting for this i felt i need to do something which is why i put her on the five day Panacur Guard, which produced Red worm. It was the vets that rang back regarding the 'Globules thing' i did not know what this was and all they explained was that it indicates inflammation of the gut.
They advised that in a Bllod Test for Tape worm (sorry i honestly dont know how this is done) they said that a high score would be 0.7, that a regular score is 0.2 or 0.3 and that my horse had a score of 1.22 which would indicate a massive infestation, and advised to worm with the Equitape as i have.
I do completly realise that this is through my lack of Knowledge, and it is a shame it has actually meant that my horse is suffering because of this, however it has also educated me for the future. i have ordered a weight tape from the internet so i can monitor changes rather than just look at them, i have created a spreadsheet that now has a yearly worming plan laid out for me, and a section that i can right note which wormer was used last time so i can monitor it.
i hope this helps and once again i really apreciate all of the help and advice you have given me, i know my horses will benefit alot from everything you have all said and i do really apreciate it,
Thank you
 
I might be wrong but i'm sure i read somewhere that equitape melts the tapeworm so that might be why you haven't seen any?
You might want to consider liver fluke too if you get no improvement. My horses were anemic with raised fibrinogen (meaning inflammation). Normal albumin and normal liver enzymes. Negative worm counts. They were all losing weight and not regaining it no matter how much i fed them. They were treated with fasinex and bloods were back to normal six weeks later and all were regaining weight. They look fantastic now and i suspect they had liver fluke for a while.
 
It's perfectly usual not to see tapeworm after worming even if the horse has them.
I would pm border riever on here shes our resident worming expert.
At one of the vet unis there will a proff who specialises in this area I would be pushing for referral to an expert rather than have your own vet faffing around .
 
If your horse is still lethargic etc after all the worming then a good tonic is called Event, seems to pick them up well. Was recommended for a horse on our yard.
 
Becca80 said:
Hi All, so i have rung Westgates lab as advised, they were wonderful. They have said that the chemical in Equitape is Praziquantel, which is quite common in Wormers, so they have advised to do the Strongid P double dose as it has a different drug, they also advised to up the dosage of it to a weight of 600kg, as the horse is 16hh and 3years old. As advised i am aware this can bring on colic, but like they have advisedI have to shift the Worm Burden so i have little choice in it really. I am going to consult the vet as well. It sounds like although i have wormed her regularly and changed brands, i have probably stupidly been giving her a similar chemical each time, which could have built up the residence i was aware of, but i thought the chnge in brands etc would eliminate this.
I feel like a very rubbish unknowledgable horse owner right now, i thought i had done the right thing, but evidently not...
Id like to thank you all for your knowledge and advice you have offered me
Thank you
Click to expand...

Westgate are great, and it sounds like you've had some very good advice. Just a wee additional thought, and something to ask your vet. I have used the tapeworm blood test before, and my understanding of it is that it shows *antibodies*, not the actual presence of tapeworm. So it means that at the time the blood was tested, the horse had a high level of antibodies. So is there not a possibility that the Panacur you used actually dealt with the worms, but that because they had been so recently present, antibodies would still show up on a blood test?

ETA - BorderReiver on here is Gill from Westgate :)

and ETA2 (just caught up with the second page ;) - I suspect the globules you mention are Immunoglobulin - which means antibodies. So a high Immunoglobulin score would suggest a high level of antibodies. Antibodies are what the body produces in response to something (e.g. tapeworm) and they don't go away the instant the tapeworm go away, they hang about just in case for quite a while. So you can still see a high antibody count even after the problem is dealt with. HEre's a quote from the University of Liverpool who do the tapeworm ELISA test...
"
Re-testing horses after anti-tapeworm treatment

It is apparent from this graph that antibody levels take AT LEAST 16 WEEKS to decline to baseline. The dynamics of antibody levels will also be complicated by re-infection if the treated horse is grazing infected pasture."
 
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hi all thank you yet again for all your advice. today she seemed alot more laid back and first time she squeeled and bucked for her dinner like she used to when she was a baby. she ate less hay too, was getting 6 haynets a day plus a full builders bag of hay plus two hard feed of 4lb of feed at a time mainly chaff to aid digestion. to me thats a more regular in take of feed, rather than being ravenous like she was? so her feed might actually be filling her up rather than feeding worms. I only went on whatthe vet aadvised, other than being under weight she is bright eyed has a shiney coat eating well and still very interested in her surrounding s though possibly slightly bored. don't know if this info helps but her slight decline in apetite seems a little more normal? kind of just feel like an idiot not knowing what to look for and what not to focus on. ive wormed all the others she is normally kept with they all hard panacur guard for five days and then equitape. all ok but they never had the weight loss and they aren't only three trying to grow in to a big horse. poo picked field too so should be clear
thank you all
 
Hi, Funny you ask, some one else has mentioned this already, actually yes. There are sheep on two neighboring fields, i have also noticed that this year the field mine are in is a lot wetter than last year, and that one of the Sheep fields is on slightly higher ground than mine. Although there is not any noticable 'running' water from the sheep field in to mine, with the excessive water in my field, im wondering if it does possibly drain in to mine with the natural lie of the land. It would make sense that some drainage would naturally run from that into my field, i think any way. it is something else im going to look into just to be on the safe side, i also think that next year, if i can move them to different grazing then i will, thanks alot for the advice :)
 
My fields haven't been grazed by sheep or cattle since 1985 but they are very wet. One of my horses isn't turned out on grass just a bare patch and he had liver fluke too. The snails can live in wet haylage. My horses were on wet haylage coming from a farm with wet ground and a fluke problem in their sheep.
 
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