Worried about Deedee :-(

[Ambers Echo]

She has been on gastrogard and sucralfate since last Tuesday (day 9 today) and there is no improvement. If anything she has started losing weight again. I am feeding her as per vet's advice - Switched from Pink Mash to Ease and Excel as more calorific than Pink Mash, 100 mls linseed oil added to each meal. Ad lib hay. Aloe vera juice, equimins advanced supplement and slippery elm. 3 meals a day. Well rugged and no work. She eats everything, eats plenty of hay, plenty of droppings, so how can she still be losing? She is generally settled but yesterday she was moved to a new field with longer grass - literally in sight of her usual paddock which is getting very bare - and she paced constantly till we gave up and moved her back. She is soooo sensitive! But she was not sold as sensitive but as pretty level headed and easy going??? I've a horrid feeling something else is going on and the ulcers are a symptom not a cause. Vet says it's early days. He wants to see her after about 3 weeks. I was meant to start hacking her out in walk next week but think that unless she begins to look better, I should leave that? Or is part of how bad she looks muscle loss and getting her going again would help? I feel so helpless - I was hoping the diagnosis would be the start of recovery but at the moment she is not looking any better. Though apart from the weight issues she looks ok - very shiny. Not girthy. No flinching when you rug/groom her. But there is no getting away from the fact that she has lost and is still losing weight. I feel like I bought a lovely, fit, healthy horse and have promptly broken her. It feels like Ginny all over again and I am getting so upset and worried. I've been told not to worm her while she's on the treatment but I wonder if she is carrying worm burden - though she is - in theory - up to date. Am I panicking too soon or should I be getting the vet out again sooner than planned?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Not sure I have much to add, is she in the field on her own? With Skylla's stress/ulcer episode from moving yards she took quite a lot of comfort from my other horses?

Skylla took 6/7 weeks of treatment all in if I recall to be totally ulcer free and back to her normal self (I started Abler medication, she was scoped three weeks in and given another load of medication from the vets and then scoped clear). She also was declared lame at the vets when she still had the ulcers (stressed and in pain from the ulcers, plus weak), so I would definitely be giving it longer before doing anything else!

edit: to add she wasn't lame and touch wood hasn't been since, just sometimes things can not be quite as they appear!

Hugs it rubbish when they can't tell us what the problem is .

 

[Dyllymoo]

I'm probably going to be unpopular but ulcers (in my experience, so possibly not all of the time) are a symptom of some form of pain. That said 9 days isn't a long time and possibly her being on her own/ new field could definitely of upset her a bit.

 

[Ambers Echo]

She was out in a herd when she developed ulcers. She has moved yards and is now alone but seems a lot happier that way. All the horses have individual turn out paddocks but she shares a fence line with another horse and they interact over the fence. She is never out without being able to see another horse. I think I am expecting too much too soon maybe but vet said start hacking her out in walk after 2 weeks treatment and that worries me while she has not regained any condition yet. Unless he just meant let the ulcers start to heal before getting her out hacking (2 weeks) but weight gain will take longer. She is thin but not dire - she does not look like a rescue case or anything! It's the fact that she seems to still be losing - or at least not yet gaining - that is freaking me out.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

She was out in a herd when she developed ulcers. She has moved yards and is now alone but seems a lot happier that way. All the horses have individual turn out paddocks but she shares a fence line with another horse and they interact over the fence. She is never out without being able to see another horse. I think I am expecting too much too soon maybe but vet said start hacking her out in walk after 2 weeks treatment and that worries me while she has not regained any condition yet. Unless he just meant let the ulcers start to heal before getting her out hacking (2 weeks) but weight gain will take longer. She is thin but not dire - she does not look like a rescue case or anything! It's the fact that she seems to still be losing - or at least not yet gaining - that is freaking me out.

Try not to fret, she's just had another change to contend with (moving) but if overall she is happier then just give her some time. Weight gain should happen once the ulcers have healed, plus it's a terrible time of year to be trying to get condition on too!

 

[Michen]

How thin is thin though AE? This is Bog, plenty would class him as “thin”. In reality he’s super fit but god does he cost me a lot in feed.

Could it be that she’s simply naturally dropping off, now that the winter has really set in and the grass has no goodness?

To maintain this weight for Boggle I have to feed him as much hard feed as the guidance allows. He’s hunting of course but even if he wasn’t I’d probably not be feeding much less than that tbh, he drops off significantly in winter but always picks it back up in spring. Just he way he is.
Might she actually just need more in the way of hard feed?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks Michen. She is similar in shape to Boggle:

You can't see her ribs but her hips jut out a little more than Boggle's and she has less cover on her rump than he does. Perhaps I am worrying unnecessarily.

She is fed the max amounts of Ease and Excel for a horse in rest and light work. Plus the oil. I could increase that maybe to the amounts for a working horse?

 

[ester]

I would definitely feed to what you see rather than what is on the packet re. work levels. But I do think it is best to see what happens with the ulcer treatment before working anything else up.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I would definitely feed to what you see rather than what is on the packet re. work levels. But I do think it is best to see what happens with the ulcer treatment before working anything else up.

Do you mean feed more then - as if she was working?

 

[ihatework]

I can understand why you are worried but I wouldn’t be panicking properly just yet.

9 days is too early to see a proper difference.

I’d do worm counts, poo & saliva and plan to worm in addition once she is off the GG.

Did you store bloods at the vetting. I might be inclined to run them.

 

[Michen]

II’m not sure I’d be too worried then. She’s probably more likely to look hippy because of the type she is, over Boggle!

Even if not hunting Bog wouldn’t have a huge amount more weight on him than he does now. Though he is always kept fit.

He’s fed max amounts of Equerry conditioning mash.

Personally would rather have a horse looking like that than the overweight , over fed and under worked horses you see around!

 

[SamBean]

One of mine was on gastroguard and sulcralfate for 3 months before he put weight on and my goodness he is massive now! I had my other horse scoped after seeing the difference in him, his ulcers were no where near as bad but I noticed a difference straight way in him and he has put on 10 kg weekly since starting treatment. They are all different.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks everyone. I will stop stressing. For now, anyway!

 

[TPO]

Firstly I'm sorry that you're going through so much stress.

Are you in contact with previous owner? That might help shed some light onto things. Did you take bloods at vetting, worth running them?

There has been a lot of upheaval. She was sold, moved, scared by the pig, moved stables/field then moved yards and in between seen (scoped?) and treated for ulcers. Had feed changed at least twice as well as all those meds and supps.

Boggle isn't thin at all, he's in excellent fit condition and is lean muscle. You don't see many fit and lean horses around this day so it's important that a distinction is made. TBF the cases I've seen of "fit" horses have been underweight and undermuscled horses who people claim have topline and are "athletically build" <roll eyes>. If Deedee looks like Boggle then all good but if she is without that muscle and is dropping serious condition (what's her body score) then it does need investigated further.

I'd do FEC and salvia tape test and then address a burden if it's present.

9 days isn't long at all. Has the vet given any indication of a timescale to see a change?

Are her teeth done and no sharp edges etc?

Doubt I'll be able to find it just now but there was a paper written by an equine vet AGAINST feeding oil and the negative impact it can have. Personally I'd feed micronised linseed over oil. Although pink mash is lower calories it appears to enable horses to get more out of the rest of their feed. Not familiar with Ease and Excel but worth looking at it's starch content.

 

[ester]

Do you mean feed more then - as if she was working?

yes

what and when was she wormed with?

 

[PurBee]

My gelding loses weight every winter, despite being at rest. 3/4 Arabian who hates the cold/wet weather. He simply does better at grass, during the warmer months, his mood lifts, looks great. His mum on the other hand is weatherproof....she’s so tough!...nothing puts her off eating!

The one thing I have suspected to cause him to be ‘ulcery’ During the winter months is linseed addition to his diet when he comes off grass. (They have hay all yr round whether in or out so no other feed change to contend with) it’s been a recurrent pattern with him to get ulcery, itchy, depressed and tetchy mood on the winter regime, and I truly do wonder about the linseed.
Linseed have high lectins which some horses can be very sensitive to and react.
Linseed oil is generally cold pressed so could still have a lectin content. You’d need to look into linseed oil more regarding lectins, as the lectin content is primarily in the shell of the seed.
As you’re giving only 100mls of linseed oil maybe miss it out for a week and see how she goes?
I’d highly recommend Protexin probiotic, it’s the only thing I’ve used which pulls him out from anomalous stomach situations.

Also consider you’re giving a lot of new ingredients into her body which her entire system is not used to so there’s going to be the rebound effects of these changes. She could be sensitive to one ingredient in the bagged feed. There’s so many ingredients in bagged feed these days. Only 9 days...be patient and calm , know that time is all something takes.

If nothing changes maybe consider going back to basics feed-wise. Ad lib hay, balancer minerals, salt, water. Start from the beginning and add as needed. Some moves of location for horses can be traumatic and could take her a month or two of new regime/horses to feel ‘safe/home’.

My mare, with previous owner and ‘her stallion’ all her life of 10yrs comes to me, told she’s sweet and gentle, doesn’t kick, bite etc.....first day with me she cow-kicked me, within that week she’d bitten me hard...! She broke out of fencing to ‘run home and find previous owner’, she was found where he had unloaded her from the trailer down the track. My god did I go through it....but just remained patient, sympathetic...took her a few weeks. Now she’s wonderful, very trusting.

 

[timbobs]

When my last horse had ulcers, it took a good month to start seeing any noticeable difference in his weight.

Once he started to put on weight he did pile it on so don't worry too much just yet!

 

[ycbm]

I'm probably going to be unpopular but ulcers (in my experience, so possibly not all of the time) are a symptom of some form of pain. That said 9 days isn't a long time and possibly her being on her own/ new field could definitely of upset her a bit.

I would agree with you if this wasn't a horse which passed a five stage vetting and then moved home very recently. my guess is a very sensitive horse affected badly by two moves in a short space of time.

My TB took nine months to fully settle and start lying down at night, AE, try not to panic yet.

.

 

[Pinkvboots]

9 days is nothing really for ulcer treatment some horses I have known were on treatment for a good few months before any improvement, I would maybe try Equijewel feed it's great for putting on condition.

 

[SEL]

It took 8 weeks of omeprazole before mine showed improvement - & her ulcers were only grade 2. She was fat but was shocking to handle she was so stressed.

I'd also increase what you are feeding. My retired draft drops weight drastically over winter so is on a full trug (×2 per day) of a mix of beet, copra and linseed with as much hay as he can eat. My other one retains her weight on fresh air. Some horses just need more food no matter how little work they get!

 

[ycbm]

Echo that, SEL.

My Boggle type 16 hand horse (16.1 but an inch is just extra wither! ) is currently on four kilos a day of Cool Condition and just staying lightly covered over the ribcage. He's only in light work!

The other is on 500g of grass nuts and well covered.

.

 

[Nari]

In addition to all the above I'd be very wary of feeding something like slippery elm alongside GastroGard as it may be blocking the uptake of it.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

The mare has been through a lot in the short space you have had her, change of scenery, change of rider, change of care, changes of diet, another change of scenery, more changes in diet. I think you need to slow everything down. You seem to be on a constant merry go round of horses and problems and perhaps you need to slow down. The poor mare might not have been sold as stressy but she seems to be now.

Have you gone back to the previous owner for hints and tips of how she was precious kept and managed so you can back track what’s went wrong??

 

[PurBee]

In addition to all the above I'd be very wary of feeding something like slippery elm alongside GastroGard as it may be blocking the uptake of it.

Good point, I hadn’t even considered that reading through the regimen. Would aloe Vera juice given internally also coat the stomach/small intestine preventing uptake of other suppose/meds?

 

[Equi]

We would have to see a current photo to give any input on her weight. But yes, muscle makes a huge difference. If you were told you could hack her, unless you can play music on her ribs i would be keen to crack on..or if you don't want to ride at least walk. Yes its burning calories she may need but the other side is maybe the lack of exercise is making her stress out and shes burning her own calories through that. I always struggled to keep weight on my boy in winter because he stressed at the last yard..this past two winters i have struggled to keep weight off.

 

[Ambers Echo]

In addition to all the above I'd be very wary of feeding something like slippery elm alongside GastroGard as it may be blocking the uptake of it.

I'd not heard of that possibility. I'll stop it for now. Thanks.

 

[Nari]

Good point, I hadn’t even considered that reading through the regimen. Would aloe Vera juice given internally also coat the stomach/small intestine preventing uptake of other suppose/meds?

That I don't know. I do know that when I was giving GastroGard and sulcrafatethe vet advised giving them several hours aprt to avoid them blocking each other and to avoid herbal or other treatments for the same reason.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I really feel for you x
You're doing all the right things and she's obviously in a lovely home.
I'd try and leave everything as it is and give her time. She has been through a lot.
The only thing I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is would she like one friend in her field? My mare couldn't cope with a herd and looked happy on individual turnout surrounded by horses but actually was/is only ulcer free with one little mate. Worth a thought.

 

[Leo Walker]

The mare has been through a lot in the short space you have had her, change of scenery, change of rider, change of care, changes of diet, another change of scenery, more changes in diet. I think you need to slow everything down. You seem to be on a constant merry go round of horses and problems and perhaps you need to slow down. The poor mare might not have been sold as stressy but she seems to be now.

Have you gone back to the previous owner for hints and tips of how she was precious kept and managed so you can back track what’s went wrong??

And milllions of horses the world over cope with that, without getting ulcers.

 

[DiNozzo]

Dolly and Amber are both happy and healthy and going great guns, so you clearly know what you're doing. DeeDee is a new and unknown quantity. Keep your faith in what you know from the horse in front of you.

She's still recovering from the recent stress and healing ulcers so she's not going to be getting all of the goodness from her food, and its cold so she might lose a bit.

I wouldn't worry too much yet given her recent history and that the weight loss hasn't been dramatically sudden.