Worried about pony's extreme aversion to catching

spookypony

spookypony

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I'll try to keep this factual, but am rather stumped just now.

Ancient history: Had pony for 8 years. Pony has often been worried and tricky to catch; generally wears field-safe head-collar, can usually be caught by determined "walking-down" (or enough apple). Sometimes he's fine, sometimes he acts extremely worried. Generally, once you get rope around neck (if no head-collar) or lead-rope attached, he stops and is fine. General manners are very polite and gentle. He has been prone to complete panics when (I'm guessing) he feels trapped, not aggressive, but so desperate to escape that he loses his head. So pressure has always been applied with great caution. Has occasionally turned bum on people/threatened to kick, but prefers to move away rather than actually carry through. He is clicker-trained.

Recent history: was diagnosed with Cushing's and has been on meds for 1 month. Ditched head-collar 2 weeks ago (this occasionally happens). I left him alone except feeding/checks, as he had earned a holiday anyway, but upcoming trimmer/vet visits necessitate head-collar going back on. Last time he got it off (over a month ago), caught him fairly easily with apples.

Day before yesterday: approached him and Ballerina Mare in field, did a bit of clicker training with both of them at liberty, in which he was happy to engage so long as the attention wasn't completely on him. Seemed worried, but ok to come near as long as lead-rope was not out. It was clear that getting head-collar on might be tricky.

Yesterday, began by corraling off half of field. Progressively made corral smaller, until let out companion pony (who was getting chased by Ballerina Mare, since apparently there was a risk that Ballerina Mare might not get all the attention). With both horses in a normal-size corral, did some more work with both. Any attempts to catch pony, however, resulted in frantic activity, which was upsetting everyone. So I let out the mare, as well. Pony seemed quite happy in corral by himself, happy to play with me, happy even to target folded-up lead-rope or head-collar, but any attempt to touch/catch resulted in bum and leg threats. Eventually made the corral as small as a stable, and he seemed so stressed by attempts to get near him that I was worried for his (and my) safety. Eventually made corral bigger to let him chill with some hay and feed. Later, a horsey friend approached (with me well out of sight, just in case it was me giving off strange vibes), and got same reaction. So eventually released him back to the others.

Today, a highly-experienced very no-nonsense friend, who knows the pony well, came over too. I stayed well away from them, and she approached him to similar reactions (socialising: fine, catching: not on). So we tried getting him and the mare near the gate together (historically, he'd easily give up at this point), but he galloped through our tape and took himself away (after trying to double-barrel friend). So then, we built a channel to the hard standing with the stables, started taking the mares out of the field, and in this way got him onto the hard standing and into a stable. Normally, he's absolutely no problem in a stable: polite as anything, certainly no problem to put a head-collar on! But not tonight. Still seeming really stressed. Have been able to give him bits of apple and feed and have a nose whuffle or two, but no getting near him with a head-collar. This isn't normal!

Why could this be happening? Another friend with Cushing's experience suggests that it could be a stage of the meds kicking in, in which case it will hopefully pass.

What to do next? Friend that came today suggests leaving in stable overnight, just going out to give food/spend calm time sitting next door, until he is friendly enough to put head-collar on. This makes some sense to me! But if it's the meds...maybe should just let him be for now? Am stumped, to be honest. Thought I'd put this in here to see if get any other angles!
 
I'm sure it is the meds but since you've got him in the stable now I would get the head collar and perhaps a short rope on it, just in case there was an emergency until he gets used to them.

I have a Welsh A who used to not like you putting a head collar on, I used a traditional bucket shaped bucket to "hand" feed her in, so she had to put her head in it, which meant I could get a lead rope round her neck usually.
 
I would make a point of cat Hong this pony before feeding I.e he only gets his bucket when he has allowed you to get hold of him. But for now, I would follow FW's advice and get the head collar on at all costs.
 
Thanks, that's my thinking, only question is how to do so safely just now. But everyone I've talked to agrees to keep him in his stable, if necessary for a day or two, to get head-collar back on. Other possibility is that he got a serious fright when ditching it the last time; perhaps caught on something. Noticed the snap was broken, rather than the bits that are designed to give way.

Will start bringing him out of field to feed in the mornings again; we used to do that, but stopped a while ago.
 
Will he eat out a bucket beside you? Possibly put it on the floor and loop a lead rope round his neck if you think that will be sufficient hold him. Or loop the head part of a halter round his neck then get the nose bit on then swap for a head collar perhaps.

Or any chance you could run him lose up into the lorry and once partitioned in get one on?
 
A tip if he keeps on getting a head collar off is too plait it into the mane. If it gets caught it will still come off, aswell as pulling some mane out, just make sure you don't plait too much hair though
 
FfionWinnie, he will. Tried that in the field and got spinny panic (normally I can do all sorts with him when he's eating). Regarding the trailer, had that thought (well, friend had it), and may well try it. Though am wary of making a problem out of the trailer, too!

CleanShavings, worth considering, thanks! :)

He just let me come in the stable and hang two hay-nets and fill up water bucket and scratch his neck with fairly little fuss. One bit of moving away, no more bum. Think I'll work from home tomorrow, possibly set up a wee office in the next stable. See how we go.
 
Mine had a few odd episodes when we increased his dose a few months ago. Now at around that time the grass in the field was fertilised without me knowing and he also went on hunger strike as far as hard feed (containing supplements essential for continued foot health plus mag ox to offset deficciencies in the madly growing grass) and eventually he had to come off the grass totally as had early signs of laminitis...

It's hard to say which bit of this whole mess was affecting his behaviour but think it was a combination of grass sugars and drugs. Mine didn't present with any major issues catching but apart from the odd little protest that isn't his style anyway. He did however start behaving manically in the stable. He'd start weaving and pacing and would bang into the gate and the walls and if you were in there and in the way of his pacing he'd walk into you and generally wouldn't acknowledge that you existed. Was like he was in his own little world / was having a panic attack. He had a few freak outs without real reasons behind them under saddle and being led as well (lots of rearing was involved which he rarely does inhand and only does ridden when he feels very strongly against what he's beign asked to do) Did discuss it with the vet at the time and a neuro exam was mentioned as a possibility but seems to have settled down now.

No real advice in there, sorry but was just to say that I suspect that the meds played a part in some of the oddness my pony was showing (and that I think too much grass played the other part!). Personally I'd keep him in the stable a few days (with company next door maybe to stop him getting too stressed?) to allow you to work with him easier. If he's target trained could you work up to training him to put his own nose in the headcollar or is that likely to be an impossibility?
 
Lots to think about though, Boulty, thanks! Using the clicker to work up to the head-collar incrementally makes a lot of sense; I suppose I'd discounted it because of the need to get the thing on again fairly soon...but if he's stuck inside anyway, may as well give it a go!

I wonder if he would also react badly to his bridle? Tomorrow, I'll start by just treating him as normally as possible in the stable, his favourite brushes, etc., but no head-collar anywhere near. That will let me start to figure out if his worry is specifically about the head-collar, or about any kind of contact in general.
 
Sometimes if you just get a noose over their heads with a long rope (with head in bucket). I don't mean a slip knot but a proper bow line so it won't tighten. The noose will stay on as the pony will be moving away. I have a couple of ropes just for such occasions and usually, when they feel the rope, they give up. If you have to let go, just let it drag, then take hold the end when you can and quietly work your way up to his head.

Repeated catching with a reward, then releasing, is the way to go so catching doesn't lead on to bad things.
 
Well, that was a non-event this morning: went into his stable, gave him his feed bucket, picked out his feet, brushed him a bit, put rope over neck, put on head-collar...he was eyeing me a bit nervously, but like a different pony. The Ballerina Mare is still upset that he's not in the field with her and the Girlfriend Mare, but he turned back to his hay-net as soon as he was finished with the bucket. Am going to phone the vet to ask if this is a possible side-effect of the meds, and when they want to do the next blood-test. Leaving him in the stable for now until I've figured out plan of action. And am going to get replacement head-collar too; he's wearing the Ballerina Mare's just now.
 
brighteyes said:
I remember you getting him - and do I also recall his progress diaries?

Could be the PPID affecting his eyesight?

So glad you didn't give up on him.
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Yes, brighteyes: lately, I've posted mainly in Comps and Training. He's competed successfully in Endurance up to 80km, and is in fact meant to be preparing for another attempt at completing is Silver Thistle Final, except that of course that's on hold until we get his health issues figured out. He used to make somewhat confused humorous (or intended to be so) posts in the Tack Room "himself": I think the longest thread was the Triangle in the Woods (my exasperation that he would walk past unexpected diggers with not a second look, but turn himself absolutely inside out at a triangular warning sign). That one devolved into a long debate among posters' horses about the breeding habits of Long-Neck Yellow Things, IIRC, where it was never settled if the one we met in the woods (with the offending triangle) was a pony or a foal version of said animal.

I think his eyes are fine; he certainly seems to have no difficulty spotting the lead-rope from across the field...but I'll get the vet to have a look just in case.
 
Definitely worth asking the vet if the drugs could be contributing to all this. However the way the head collar broke suggests something went seriously wrong and he's a sensitive soul so maybe he has now associated the head collar in the field with trouble? Then when things stress him in the field he can't even tolerate the head collar in the stable?

I'd definitely clicker train the head collar in increments, if he's had a bad experience you can reverse its effect. Is it possible to always get him in loose, using the corridor? That's what I'd do and I'd avoid the issue of the head collar in the field all together for a while.
 
Other suggestion has been the rain last week just getting the grass (even in that bare paddock) going enough to set him off.

Had three very good clicker sessions with him just now in the hard standing. He's been very keen, and easily transferred all his previous, left-sided cues to the right side with no issues. Going to do that again later tonight, and tomorrow morning, and then let him back out when the trimmer comes. Ballerina Mare seems resigned to him being in the hard standing for now. It's not like she can't see him there; it's only about 20 meters.

Am trying to work out how I will feed him out of the field if he's reluctant to catch (at first). Logistics are: 3 horses in field, each gets a morning bucket. Normally, these are deposited over the fence in a very specific order: Spooky Pony first, Ballerina Mare almost at the same time, then Girlfriend Mare. This means peaceful eating for everyone. To take him out of the field for the first few days will be tricky, so I'd better start on mornings when I don't have to be anywhere in a hurry. As I said, he did previously get brought in to get fed, but this was before he became quite so difficult to catch. Hmm.
 
It is weaned foals that need to be head collared here. They are untouched until weaned so head collaring can be 'testing'. I've developed a technique of dangling the head collar above the foal's head while it eats hard feed out of a bowl, also making them rub past my hand to get at the feed. Basically, desensitising to things and hands wandering around their heads while they experience something pleasant, e.g. food! I'm getting better at it but refuse to box them in a corner and use force to get the head collar on.

Any ponies that are the least bit head shy get a course of desensitisation. They get offered slices of carrot through the head collar until I have them reaching through the head collar to get the carrot. I have had one so trained to expect the reward when she puts her head through the collar that she'd actually try to get it on when it's been thrown on the ground! I've a video of her doing this.
 
spookypony said:
Yes, brighteyes: lately, I've posted mainly in Comps and Training. He's competed successfully in Endurance up to 80km, and is in fact meant to be preparing for another attempt at completing is Silver Thistle Final, except that of course that's on hold until we get his health issues figured out. He used to make somewhat confused humorous (or intended to be so) posts in the Tack Room "himself": I think the longest thread was the Triangle in the Woods (my exasperation that he would walk past unexpected diggers with not a second look, but turn himself absolutely inside out at a triangular warning sign). That one devolved into a long debate among posters' horses about the breeding habits of Long-Neck Yellow Things, IIRC, where it was never settled if the one we met in the woods (with the offending triangle) was a pony or a foal version of said animal.

I think his eyes are fine; he certainly seems to have no difficulty spotting the lead-rope from across the field...but I'll get the vet to have a look just in case.
Click to expand...



Ah yes, this is what I remember. The place where we do circles etc..always thought he was very articulate for a pony.
 
I've found that clicker training can make horses uncooperative if there isn't a 'treat' involved. By switching the treat as a reward, rather than a bribe, behaviour usually improves. If there is no treat that is higher value than freedom and grass it makes things a little awkward...
 
:D He's not really got grass...but kind of the whole point of clicker training is to reward in some way (food obviously being not the only possibility), and yes, that makes it a choice for the horse while it's in the stage of the behaviour being established! It's a limitation, but also a feature, I suppose. In his case, he seems to enjoy being asked questions to which he can figure out the answer without stress. At the moment, it seems that being caught is causing stress (more than usual), so I need to figure out why.

Had his hoof trim this morning. Trimmer agreed that not all well: he was really really polite with her, but whole demeanour was unhappy about her being that close. She said she thought if she'd not known him for so long, he wouldn't have let her near. As it is, he was quiet and polite, but subtly unhappy. Have decided to continue his holiday from ridden work until we get to the bottom of this. We can do lots of at-liberty pole work and similar in the meantime, which he finds fun, to help him build his muscles back up.

Some reading reveals that it's very possible that this is a hopefully-transient side effect of the medication. Hoping that's so, and that he feels better soon! :)
 
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