Would a Friesian be suitable for a Junior BD rider?

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silkec

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We are looking at buying a new horse since my mare is retiring.
My 14-year old daughter is riding for BD South, and I would like to maybe find a horse she could start riding when she turns 16.

We have been looking at a fantastic young Friesian gelding but I am not quite sure if a Friesian would be accepted by the judges.

Should we rather look for a Warmblood like everyone else, or shall we show guts, and be the odd ones out.

I don't want to be the one spoiling her chances of being selected as a junior.

Any knowledgeable comments would be highly appreciated!!

Thanks!
 
There are a few really good fresians about competing and Zorro was a GP fresian. Judges generally are not that prejudicial! However if your daughter wants to compete in FEI level dressage the horse will need to be an exceptional mover and capable of Advanced medium level, irrespective of breed!
 
noname said:
There are a few really good fresians about competing and Zorro was a GP fresian. Judges generally are not that prejudicial! However if your daughter wants to compete in FEI level dressage the horse will need to be an exceptional mover and capable of Advanced medium level, irrespective of breed!
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This!

Juniors are exceptionally competitive. What does your daughter's trainer say? I wouldn't be buying anything without advice from a very experienced trainer, ideally someone involved in Juniors.
 
Booboos said:
This!

Juniors are exceptionally competitive. What does your daughter's trainer say? I wouldn't be buying anything without advice from a very experienced trainer, ideally someone involved in Juniors.
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One trainer loves it, the other is undecided, and a third one recommends to buy a warmblood.

Which one do we pick?

I kind of love the idea of standing out but obviously not for the wrong reasons. It might be a situation of counting votes for and against it...
 
The capabilities of the individual horse are more important than breed. I've seen some Friesians who are capable of doing the advanced work; most are not since collection doesn't come naturally to them. If this horse can easily do the movements and collect without too much struggle, he will probably be accepted. I would not worry about "breed prejudice" so much as I would ask your trainers to look past the breed and address whether or not the horse has the conformation and movement to do the work that will be asked of him (insofar as anyone can tell when looking at young horses).
 
The most distinctive horse I know is a skewbald sports type, stands out straight away , also is well schooled and has good conformation, has gone to HOYS, but is not pure dressage type.
There is loads of time in one way, but remember that it takes quite a few years to get to the higher echelons if that is desired, and also needs a good trainer, one good trainer at a time, and also deep pockets.
There is a danger that you rush around asking everyone s opinion , when what you need is to spend more time on working out what are the characteristics of a good horse, go to competitions and watch the classes, read the entry requirements and watch the judging, "get your eye in"
Also, teenagers can be fickle, one day, it may be "i've met someone and he likes to go motor racing every weekend"
 
Ask the trainers for their reasoning and assess in light of their ability to judge. Have they each assessed the horse in question or did you pose it as a general question about the breed?

There are some lovely Fresians about but that's not what they are 'for' and there is good reason you don't see them at the Olympics. Generally the canter is not top class, which is a very hard gait to improve, and they can be tough to get working properly over the back but of course there are exceptions to every rule.

One thing to keep in mind is the limited time frame. For an adult there is always 'next year' if a horse is slow to come on but that's not the case for kids.

It depends what you want out of the whole thing. If it's just something to do with a horse you love, just buy what you want (within reason). If your goal is to be competitive then you need to be a bit harder hearted.
 
I am no expert, but the pure Friesian is nothing like the desired uphill type, yes they stand out, but that may get them put down the line rather quickly, , I would not risk it.
 
From experience you will find most prejudice at the lower levels to this breed which may cause issues with a teenager as they will be disheartened . It would not be my horse of choice in this situation for several reasons.Without seeing horse I would say no! I think your trainers have already voted no! as an undecided in this situation would count as a no in my book.
 
I would not buy a Fresian for that job.
If you wanted to get one because your daughter wanted a fresian and you wanted to see what you could do with it ( by that I mean focused on the journey ) I would say buy it if she loves it and enjoy it but if your daughter is focused on doing that whole junior thing I think I would look foor a warmblood .
 
Goldenstar said:
I would not buy a Fresian for that job.
If you wanted to get one because your daughter wanted a fresian and you wanted to see what you could do with it ( by that I mean focused on the journey ) I would say buy it if she loves it and enjoy it but if your daughter is focused on doing that whole junior thing I think I would look foor a warmblood .
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It would be obviously much easier if it would be a simple matter of my daughter being the only one riding the horse.

My mare is retiring, and I am going to take out the horse as well for freestyles.

Tricky, tricky!
 
Well, that's a bit different. Presumably you're paying and if YOU want a Fresian then have at it. The original question was a about a horse for a competitive JR and I think we've mostly agreed it wouldn't be the first choice for THAT job.

The only reason to buy a Fresian would be because you want a horse that looks like that. Perfectly valid! And SOME are very competitive. And, of course, there are dressage bred horses that won't ever make the grade. You have to judge the individual.

Frankly, I find quite often when people claim 'bias' it's just a convenient way of explaining the horse the CHOSE is simply not quite up to standard. Of course there can be judges with issues but they are much fewer and further between than people seem to think. The reason you don't see loads of 'non-traditional' breeds at the top end is because, not unsurprisingly, fewer of them have the right raw material for the job.
 
TarrSteps said:
Well, that's a bit different. Presumably you're paying and if YOU want a Fresian then have at it. The original question was a about a horse for a competitive JR and I think we've mostly agreed it wouldn't be the first choice for THAT job.

The only reason to buy a Fresian would be because you want a horse that looks like that. Perfectly valid! And SOME are very competitive. And, of course, there are dressage bred horses that won't ever make the grade. You have to judge the individual.

Frankly, I find quite often when people claim 'bias' it's just a convenient way of explaining the horse the CHOSE is simply not quite up to standard. Of course there can be judges with issues but they are much fewer and further between than people seem to think. The reason you don't see loads of 'non-traditional' breeds at the top end is because, not unsurprisingly, fewer of them have the right raw material for the job.
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THIS. I find it so frustrating when people moan about warmblood bias in dressage. It isn't a bias - a greater proportion of them have the physical ability to both collect and extend for the marks at the higher levels. Non-traditional breeds *can* make it - there have been Clydesdales, Friesians, and TBs for example in high level dressage, but even as the best of their type at the highest level they aren't truly competitive against the best of the WBs.

Look at people like the Sparkle Sisters - they hunted to find their TBs for dressage, and were looking for specific physical traits and abilities in the horses they bought to give them the best chance at dressage.

So it's not a case of breed prejudice - there are Friesians out there that could do it. But a young horse is always a gamble anyway, and aiming at Juniors you would be safer either with something older and established that you know can do it, or of WB type where the likelihood of ability is higher. However if you want a Friesian, then look at LOTS of them to get a good idea of what you need in one to make a dressage horse rather than a carriage horse (what they are bred for!)

ETA I say all that, and I have a TB!!! I'm just prepared that he may well not cope with high level physically.
 
I have a TB too I have him because I like him if I wanted a horse to do the high level movements I probally would not have chosen a TB.
I looked hard at the Olympics for much talked about anti PRE and Iberian basis I am no judge but thought the judges marked what they did .
However the two horses who got a better marks than how I saw it where both warmbloods but not sure what that all means.
Back to OP , your young years when you are riding are precious if I where OP I would buy the perfect horse for my child and make do myself .
 
khalswitz also makes an important point which is that a horse not built for the job will be less likely to stand up to it. If the horse has to work harder and do more to get to the same place then, at the very least, you are using up valuable miles on the clock.

This is when someone pops up and points out that not all warmblood horses stay sound. Of course not - there are too many variables in play. And not every horse bred for the job will be built for it. But you're only ever playing a numbers game and you are more likely to find the whole package in a custom bred horse.

Btw, that applies both up and down the scale. Buying a horse bred and built to be an upper level dressage horse to be a low level RC horse is just as likely to end in tears. Horses for courses!
 
TarrSteps said:
Btw, that applies both up and down the scale. Buying a horse bred and built to be an upper level dressage horse to be a low level RC horse is just as likely to end in tears. Horses for courses!
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So agree with this. The number of people who get well-bred, powerful WBs to do 3ft jumping or prelim dressage is ridiculous, and they often don't get as far as they would with something designed to be an all-rounder, RC type. That in my own opinion is where you see the non-traditional breeds doing so well - I've known a couple of Haffies, Fjords and Clydesdales who do a beautiful elementary test, and also do low level sj and eventing, and do RDA on the side!! As long as you aren't worried about not going higher than elementary, then you can have a lot more fun trying lots of different things!

And yes, TarrSteps - I've known a couple of horses of 'unusual' type for dressage who broke either physically or mentally from being pushed too far for their ability, despite having hearts of gold and trying really hard. A friend had a beautiful TB mare that she did dressage with - but came out of the ring in tears after their first Advanced Medium test, saying that she could feel her trying so hard, but she just couldn't do it. Same friend then went and got a great WB whom she just never clicked with, and then got a Friesian x TB whom she had fun doing dressage at Nov-Elem with because she enjoyed him.

However for high level dressage, a *good* warmblood is very hard to beat... so OP kind of needs to decide if they want to do Juniors dressage, or want to do dressage with a Friesian, really...
 
I personally agree, not that I'm any great dressage rider, though not sure a friesian is ideal, because of the scope of their paces they are often very difficult to contain, especially for a smaller rider. I'd definitely go for a warmblood, and then pick the horse on it's ability.
 
It's defiantly possible for a Friesian to do top level dressage ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKSR7uJgnl8 ) , they have lovely personalities that make them very trainable. But personally i think in your situation a warmblood would be first choice. It would be more straightforward to train, and will be more readily accepted by judges.
 
Nothing against Friesians (I used to compete a Fell Pony at medium level :D ) but as a general rule they are longer in the back and weaker in the back end and thus take longer to develop the collection if they do have the ability to sit. Friend has taken hers to advanced level but it has taken a long time and he is not truly competitive in terms of what you are looking at for Junior teams.

No guarantees with any breed - I've trained two 'untypical' breeds to a high level but it took longer and was harder than it does with one bred for the job. My homebred KWPN mare (out of one of the above mares) was backed late as a 5yo and at 7yo is already working comfortably at medium level and finding it easy. That is not being ridden every day by a pro-rider, but an amateur working full time and often only working her 3 days a week. It took me over three years to get her dam to that level and it was hard work despite her willingness. She did BYRDS with my niece, she was established PSG/working GP by then and even that many years back she was not competitive enough for teams because her trot lacked suspension but was good enough to get placed at regionals at that level with me.

BTW - we did similar to you and started with a young horse while she was still in ponies. It definitely worked well for us that way and was financially a much better move than buying an established horse.

It is a buyers market at the moment, lots of lovely quality youngsters about. Look for a nice 5yo with the basics, then by the time she is into junior classes it should be coming to advanced medium/PSG
 
I enjoy the challenge of doing well on my non dressage type (ID) but we will never challenge the WBs because he has limitations. I love training him, but I do plan on buying a second horse who IS built for the job, but not until I feel ready for it
 
In response to the initial question: probably not. And I love my Friesians dearly, BTW. But if I wanted to actually win dressage competitions, then I would buy a warmblood, just as if I wanted to win races I would buy a TB.
 
If she wants to go further, warmblood. My daughter took a Fjord to advanced medium.
Judges over here are very prejudiced against anything that isn't meant to do dressage. Getting the Fjord to the level they did was hard slog, not because he couldn't do it, but at times they weren't given the marks they deserved. It's very disheartning when 1 judge gives you really good marks and the other gives you 40 marks less when you know you've ridden the best test of your life todate. Blatant prejuduce! Daughter was devastated as it meant she lost her place in the regional finals. Just because they aren't built for it , doesn't mean they can't do it. There is a Fjord over here who could do GP but wasn't allowed to cos he was under 14.2.
Warmbloods are bred to do the job and ultimately do it well.
 
Cortez said:
In response to the initial question: probably not. And I love my Friesians dearly, BTW. But if I wanted to actually win dressage competitions, then I would buy a warmblood, just as if I wanted to win races I would buy a TB.
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Agree with this. I love my TB to death and he does try for me (most of the time) but he is never going to challenge the flashy warmblood that floats around the arena.

The proof is in the pudding that time and time again he has produced lovely accurate and correct tests but he just doesn't ever get higher than a 7 for his paces and his test sheets pretty much read 6's and 7's across the board with the odd 8 for a good centre line or halt (on a good day) doesn't worry me as it isn't what I bought him for, but if you are buying something to be seriously competetive with you need to give yourself a headstart and I believe a warmblood with correct 'flashy' paces will do that for you.
 
I am appalled to see people dismiss a breed so easily due to the fact of winning!

If you get a horse and you train it WELL and you put in the EFFORT you will do well no matter what and if anything if you chose to do this with a friesian you would certainly stand out from any ordinary boring brown warmblood!

I never got the choice and I actually came into dressage through the success of my friesian and he is doing very well and after joining only 2 months ago we are already aiming for BYRDS through both recommendation and commitment !

IF you want to take the easy route then by all means warmbloods would be the best option however if you want the challenge and (if it pays off) you will thrash any warmblood hands down!
 
Jamee246 said:
I and (if it pays off) you will thrash any warmblood hands down!
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This is the key part. Nothing against Friesians, people can do very well with them, but you have to pick the right one, work very hard and land lucky. If Juniors is your goal rather than the challenge as you put it, then a warmblood makes more sense. Also, a Friesian will not thrash 'any warmblood'. At highest levels warmbloods are supreme. Not to say Friesians can't win in their own levels, but the % of warmbloods performing at higher level out weighs any other. If the OP's aim was to compete a Friesian, we would have given different advice - but it is to ride qualify for Juniors.
 
Jamee246 said:
I am appalled to see people dismiss a breed so easily due to the fact of winning!

If you get a horse and you train it WELL and you put in the EFFORT you will do well no matter what and if anything if you chose to do this with a friesian you would certainly stand out from any ordinary boring brown warmblood!

I never got the choice and I actually came into dressage through the success of my friesian and he is doing very well and after joining only 2 months ago we are already aiming for BYRDS through both recommendation and commitment !

IF you want to take the easy route then by all means warmbloods would be the best option however if you want the challenge and (if it pays off) you will thrash any warmblood hands down!
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I think you are taking this a bit too much at heart! No one is saying YOUR horse is rubbish. I am sure that someone, somewhere is doing well in endurance with a Shire horse, but if you want to maximise your chances, an Arab or Arab cross is a better choice. Equally for high level dressage (I don't mean to be rude but 'aiming for BYRDS' and 'being copetitive in Juniors, i.e. national team selection and international competitions' are two different levels) WB is the choice that maximises your chances of getting it right.
 
I am very involved with Juniors at international level and I would say if this is where you are heading you mot only need a horse that can compete at advanced medium but they have to be capable of 70% + at the level and as riders only get a short time at the level you really need one that will go on to PSG or you will be changing it again.

If you are just aiming at regional BYRDs then you could probably do ok with a fresian but if it is International squads you are hoping for then I would say it is not worth the risk and I would look for something that would be more likely to allow you to achieve your goals.
 
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