Would an increase in the Horsemeat Industry reduce welfare?

[Rollin]

I live in France, where some people eat horse meat. A tiny amount is on display in our supermarkets, I am talking about 3-4 packs of steak amongst a mountain of other meat.

Also I know many people who now eat less meat of any description.

This horse meat is ALWAYS from outside the EU, Mexico, Canada and last week Uruguay I have just written to a French Senator asking why this is the case. The reason we have passports, is to protect horse meat eaters from drugs administered to horses, there is no passport legislation in the Americas.

I don't think there is any demand for horse meat outside pet food so cannot imagine how this would benefit welfare.

I certainly will not be sending any of my horses for slaughter or to an auction.

 

[wench]

I don't think it will help, as the only people that should be able to send horses for slaughter, would be farmers, or "proper" breeders, such as you have with all other livestock. The localgyppo won't just be able to send off their tough 20 year old nag for use in tesco value lasagne

 

[touchstone]

Regardless of welfare issues due to transportation or the actual slaughtering process, the crux of the matter is that there are far too many ponies and horses than there are good homes for in this country. There are coloured mares near me that in foal continuously, what happens to all the offspring that there aren't homes for? The 'breeders', for want of a better word, couldn't care less if a foal has a good home waiting, plenty are happy enough to abandon or starve the youngstock. Would rewarding people financially for disposing of their ill treated animals be the right thing and would it prevent suffering by giving them a good life beforehand? I don't believe so, better to tackle the problem by targeting those who breed surplus poor quality stock in the first place.

 

[radicalthunder]

Regardless of welfare issues due to transportation or the actual slaughtering process, the crux of the matter is that there are far too many ponies and horses than there are good homes for in this country. There are coloured mares near me that in foal continuously, what happens to all the offspring that there aren't homes for? The 'breeders', for want of a better word, couldn't care less if a foal has a good home waiting, plenty are happy enough to abandon or starve the youngstock. Would rewarding people financially for disposing of their ill treated animals be the right thing and would it prevent suffering by giving them a good life beforehand? I don't believe so, better to tackle the problem by targeting those who breed surplus poor quality stock in the first place.

Thank you for your comments. How do you envisage tackling the problem of those who breed surplus and not such good quality breeding?

 

[millikins]

In theory it looks appealing, in practice I can't see how it would work. There is no infrastructure in this country for a horsemeat industry. So there are thousands of poorly bred, neglected, elderly and unwanted horses, why not eat them? Seems the obvious solution but imagine if they were cows or sheep, who would want to put that quality of meat on a plate? Meat animals are young, healthy, well cared for, tagged and their medical history is recorded, just can't see how this could be implemented with the overbred horses in this country.

 

[radicalthunder]

In theory it looks appealing, in practice I can't see how it would work. There is no infrastructure in this country for a horsemeat industry. So there are thousands of poorly bred, neglected, elderly and unwanted horses, why not eat them? Seems the obvious solution but imagine if they were cows or sheep, who would want to put that quality of meat on a plate? Meat animals are young, healthy, well cared for, tagged and their medical history is recorded, just can't see how this could be implemented with the overbred horses in this country.

thank you very much

 

[Wagtail]

thank you very much

I also think that your questionnaire is targeting the wrong people. All the people on here who have answered it, are the sort of people who care about their horses and so would not dream of sending them for meat. The people who would, would not be so easily available or care enough to fill in your survey. If you really are intent on pursuing this line of enquiry, then you would need to go and do some proper research and question certain communities and owners of maltreated equines in person. Not something I would suggest is advisable.

 

[frostie652]

I wouldn't have a problem with my pony's body being used for meat, I just wouldn't want her dying in a slaughterhouse, away from everything she knows.

If the body was collected from home and then used for meat, that wouldn't (in theory) be a problem for me

 

[radicalthunder]

I also think that your questionnaire is targeting the wrong people. All the people on here who have answered it, are the sort of people who care about their horses and so would not dream of sending them for meat. The people who would, would not be so easily available or care enough to fill in your survey. If you really are intent on pursuing this line of enquiry, then you would need to go and do some proper research and question certain communities and owners of maltreated equines in person. Not something I would suggest is advisable.

The comments that have been made here have actually helped. This feedback is just what I need for my dissertation.

The data I have collected through my survey shows that most people are just about okay with the idea of horsemeat itself but not their own horses and because of the methods and standards that the 'horsemeat industry' are associated with.

This is exactly what I'm looking for, so thank you everyone who has taken the time to express your views.

However, financial difficulties effect everyone and even if you care for an animal, financial difficulties could effect you. So eliminating people that care about horses from the concert of having to sell into the horse meat industry ( at no point have I, anywhere, said that the horse has to be slaughtered in a slaughter house - there is every possibility that it is shot at home and then take there and therefore having no stress or upset) is, in my opinion, a very sheltered view and unfair and judgemental towards those who find themselves in financially difficulty and therefore find an alternative for their loved ones.

As I have already said, all the comments and views are excellent for my discussion. Thank you

 

[Rollin]

Thank you for your comments. How do you envisage tackling the problem of those who breed surplus and not such good quality breeding?

One approach might be as in France. You cannot breed from mares/stallions who have not been vaccinated/ swabbed and registered on the national equine database called SIRE.

This at least puts a bit of financial pressure on the breeder. Transfer of ownership is separate to the the passport, which helps keep tabs on horse owners. If you don't have the ownership document you cannot sell the horse.

 

[touchstone]

I would expect for food safety reasons the horse would have to be slaughtered at the slaughterhouse if going for meat, and if you have a horse shot at home then you still need to pay for the service, so I don't see a way out of that one.

Stallion licensing would be my preferred method of controlling surplus stock, providing it is properly policed.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I would expect for food safety reasons the horse would have to be slaughtered at the slaughterhouse if going for meat, and if you have a horse shot at home then you still need to pay for the service, so I don't see a way out of that one.

Stallion licensing would be my preferred method of controlling surplus stock, providing it is properly policed.

How would that control surplus stock, those who breed indiscriminately don't do it for any reason which can seen as be financially sound.
Once upon a time we had stallion licencing and it was stopped, presumably for financial reasons, there are some laws now, but are flouted by all and sundry. Colts can cover from early on, so licencing would not be effective.
Food safety requires that drugs are controlled by vets and that passports are used to keep horses records up to date, they would all have to be chipped and the chips checked at the slaughterhouse. Its not workable at the moment, but again, we don't want to breed for horse meat.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

One approach might be as in France. You cannot breed from mares/stallions who have not been vaccinated/ swabbed and registered on the national equine database called SIRE.

This at least puts a bit of financial pressure on the breeder. Transfer of ownership is separate to the the passport, which helps keep tabs on horse owners. If you don't have the ownership document you cannot sell the horse.

How does this work if a mare is covered by a colt in a field, or for travellers, just imagine trying to keep tabs on that lot!
In this country horses should not be sold without a passport [probably costs over £100], yet people pop up on here all the time having bought them in complete ignorance or in flagrance of the rules, for almost any reason including rescuing ponies.
I expect the rules are for people are for people who are going to stick to the rules. Breeders standing a stallion are probably covering mares destined for competition.

 

[nianya]

I don't think us eating horses would make any difference to horse welfare .
Things as bad if not worse in counties where they eat horse .
More meat trade might lead to stricter restrictions on the drugs able to be used on horses this would be very bad for sport and pleasure horses .
If there was a meat trade people would breed for it .
There would still be loads of poorly conformed badly cared for horses being minimally cared for having a terrible quality of life .
I will always PTS my horses at home nothing ever ( apart catastrophic injury away from home ) will ever make me do otherwise .

Bolding to emphasize! One of the major downsides of horse as a food animal is that they are even less efficient forage->meat production than cows so we'd increase the load overall on agriculture for what would ultimately be an expensive niche food.

And in regards to welfare, since many drugs we use routinely in caring for our pets (pleasure or sport, they are pet animals) make the animal unfit for consumption either you would be unable to send your suddenly unfit horse to slaughter, or you would end up making him a welfare case because you couldn't use those drugs in order to keep that option open. That's an untenable situation to me.

The other option is slaughter for dog food, or zoo animals, I don't know what the drug rules are there. In the first case you could get paid, in the second you cannot (but the next point wouldn't matter because you'd take them to the zoo yourself).

However, putting your injured, ill, or old horse on the slaughter trailer is, to me, a welfare issue too. These are not nice, two horse trailers with hay nets and partitions. It would be terrifying and very possibly painful for him. And yea, you would have to for food safety regulation, shooting them at home and then transporting the carcass isn't acceptable.

I want to just comment on this though:

its like, I've paid so much for him to survive, he may as well help me out too

Of all the possible reasons to allow slaughter of a companion animal, this one stands out to me as the worst. Having pets are a choice you can make, but he cannot anymore than your dog or cat does. I understand of course, that it's expensive to PTS. I've done it. But that's a choice that anyone who has an animal knows they will have to make eventually.

The major issue with welfare is that there are too many horses being bred and it's basically unregulated. I don't see how allowing slaughter is going to make that situation better.

 

[touchstone]

How would that control surplus stock, those who breed indiscriminately don't do it for any reason which can seen as be financially sound.
Once upon a time we had stallion licencing and it was stopped, presumably for financial reasons, there are some laws now, but are flouted by all and sundry. Colts can cover from early on, so licencing would not be effective.
Food safety requires that drugs are controlled by vets and that passports are used to keep horses records up to date, they would all have to be chipped and the chips checked at the slaughterhouse. Its not workable at the moment, but again, we don't want to breed for horse meat.

The theory being that it will cost more to keep a colt entire, and gelding should be seen as the cheaper option over keeping entire - as I said in my previous post, it would have to be well policed and documentation provided. Welfare organisations are trying their best by offering castration clinics, and this has to be a good thing. The problem of overbreeding isn't going to go away if it is ignored, we really need a cull of surplus animals short term and making it more difficult for those who breed indiscriminately in future. Appleby is full of stallions, making it a good place to check for licenses on entire animals as well as passports I'd think.

 

[radicalthunder]

One approach might be as in France. You cannot breed from mares/stallions who have not been vaccinated/ swabbed and registered on the national equine database called SIRE.

This at least puts a bit of financial pressure on the breeder. Transfer of ownership is separate to the the passport, which helps keep tabs on horse owners. If you don't have the ownership document you cannot sell the horse.

Thank you very much, I will investigate.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

The theory being that it will cost more to keep a colt entire, and gelding should be seen as the cheaper option over keeping entire - as I said in my previous post, it would have to be well policed and documentation provided. Welfare organisations are trying their best by offering castration clinics, and this has to be a good thing. The problem of overbreeding isn't going to go away if it is ignored, we really need a cull of surplus animals short term and making it more difficult for those who breed indiscriminately in future. Appleby is full of stallions, making it a good place to check for licenses on entire animals as well as passports I'd think.

I understand the theory, but not the practice, eg if I wanted to produce foals, I would just leave colt foals entire in a field with mares.
The Appleby stallions were there at a time when they should have had a licence, but the "authorities" are warned not to disturb "traditional practices" as it is considered "racist" and the Police are too busy trying to prevent mass local theft, and dealing with other illegal activities. I expect anyone who has welfare concerns would not buy certain horses at Appleby, but they are there with motley horses because they make money every year, and there are still farmers who leave horses, sheep, cattle, or quads in a place where they can be stolen.

 

[happyclappy]

In my fifties but still completed it! I have no issues with eating horse meat - providing the horse is euthanased kindly and correctly, preferably the horse having had a good life but it may be a kind end to a bad life.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

In my fifties but still completed it! I have no issues with eating horse meat - providing the horse is euthanased kindly and correctly, preferably the horse having had a good life but it may be a kind end to a bad life.

We all want a quiet and peaceful end, but this is not to be expected if one sends it to market for the meatman to buy it.

 

[Rollin]

How does this work if a mare is covered by a colt in a field, or for travellers, just imagine trying to keep tabs on that lot!
In this country horses should not be sold without a passport [probably costs over £100], yet people pop up on here all the time having bought them in complete ignorance or in flagrance of the rules, for almost any reason including rescuing ponies.
I expect the rules are for people are for people who are going to stick to the rules. Breeders standing a stallion are probably covering mares destined for competition.

As with everything regulations need to be policed. British friends had failed to register their imported horses on the SIRE database and their vet informed them, that in future if they were not registered he would not vaccinate them.

People who breed from horses who have not been registered on SIRE can only obtain what we call Pet ID passports which excludes the horse from many competitions in France.

I know of a couple who sent a CB mare to stud in France without registering the mare on SIRE. She had AI from a QA CB stallion but they have never been able to obtain an AI certificate, because all AI/covering certificates are 'on-line' from the National Stud.