Would love to pin, prod, electrocute, force etc. Cesar Milan

Lunchbox legend said:
…….. has the poor girl started to shut down? She's so 'calm' she's panting, licking her lips and nose, and fidgeting :( . ……..
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It may be that you've missed the point. I haven't seen the piece of film concerned, but you've describe, very well, the dog which has decided that 'fight' is going to achieve nothing, but that 'acceptance' of the human will, will. Those dogs which challenge and reject the demands of their handler, simply have to learn to 'obey'. Do your dogs obey you? If they didn't, how would you assert your dominance?

Before you take issue with the word 'dominance', consider that all dogs which are compliant and obedient, are dominated over. Negotiation with dogs which challenge those who would be their owners doesn't work, it never has and it never will.

Going back to the question of how Milan enters in to a relationship with a dog, bearing in mind that the animal has views of its own(!), so the dog's system does, as you accurately describe, need 'shutting down'. Once shut down has been achieved, then upon those foundations so we build a relationship which doesn't just benefit man, but importantly, the dog too.

Alec.
 
I've been watching the replies to my comment and it's interesting. He seems to be a 'marmite' man - either love him or hate him.

I'd have taken a different approach with the dog in the clip I saw. Sure, it would have taken longer, but I do believe the results would also mean a better relationship between me and the dog.

I agree with some of the people on here who mention his view on exercise (I remember seeing a clip where he says 'exercise, discipline and affection' in that order i.e. lots more exercise than discipline and more discipline than affection). I fully agree that far too many dogs don't get nearly enough exercise and socialisation, and just as many get no or the wrong kind of discipline and that addressing these things would be half the battle won. I just think he falls back on his own techniques in situations where a more positive approach would work just as well or better. I also think that too many people use his techniques wrongly. No amount of "don't try this at home" is going to change that.

Yes Alec, I do have dogs - well just the one permanent one at the moment. I grew up with between 2-4 dogs (depending on who had died or joined us) and all of them were trained to competition standard. At 12 years old I was winning places in competitions with my dog. Later dogs were trained as gun dogs and some had agility training. I've had dogs on and off for the last 40 years (some my own, some fosters, some friends and family dogs that I dogsat).

Nowadays I don't bother with anything competitive but my current dog had already learnt to sit and wait for his dinner/the 'ok' command at 3 months old. At 4 months, he had learned to get out of his cage in the car and sit in his place to have his lead put on and look me in the eye waiting for the 'ok' command to get out of the car. He's an energetic, cheeky little nutjob and people often comment on how well behaved he is.

Some of the foster dogs I've had would certainly had been pinned, jabbed, forced etc. by CM but they didn't get that with me. They all learnt some manners and all went to homes (how much they learnt really depended on a whole bunch of things). I did try CM's methods with one dog as I like to try things out and learn new things. I really didn't like it and I think it made things worse. Maybe his methods work for the most extreme situations but for most people/dogs/situations I'd still avoid him.
 
personally I don't want my dogs to be dominated by me, I don't want them to fear which I equate with being dominated, I want my dogs to choose to be with me because I offer leadership, consistency (even if that is a consistent correction following a repeated action), they feel confident in my presence, I do believe that a dog needs guidance, correction and praise from a calm, focused leader.
dogs that do things because they are dominated or fearful can easily be pushed in to defensive aggression or just leaving if it is possible at the point they are pushed too far, my lurcher comes back when we are walking wherever we are walking-if we are in company she will run amongst all the legs till she finds me then go of again unless called close, if she feels threatened by another dog she comes close and puts myself between her and the other dog-she trusts in my leadership to control a situation-the one time she has reacted differently was when she obviously felt uncomfortable with a fishermans intentions, she stood across the front of my legs close enough she was touching me the whole time she was there i could feel the low growl vibrating through her, I have only had one dog who has not been protective and he is the dog that runs off, has been run over twice, lives in his own world and guess what he is the dog that dominating training methods were used on, he has never exhibited any loyalty to anyone and I believe that is because he trusts no-one-he is also the only rescue i have had but he arrived in our house at 5 weeks so I believe too early for his past to be relevant, he is now 16yrs old and still going he is an exceptionally complicated and unusual dog and whilst he has taught me not to try and dominate my dogs I still believe in short sharp reprimands when needed.
I don't want flat soulless, expressionless servants in my dogs or horses I want light and character to shine through in my animals but alongside that I want a willingness to please and be in my company. every animal is different and whilst the fundamentals may be the same the fine tuning is subject appropriate.

shutting an animal down puts it in a place it cannot learn-that is the idea of shut down an animal cannot be mentally scarred whilst in shut down the damage is done on the way there, eg a friends horse fell over in a trailer on the way to a training weekend, they were not aware of the severity of the event until they arrived at their location, they had felt a very brief 'something' during the journey-in fact what they had felt was the partition and horse falling over some 40 = minutes before arriving, when they opened the trailer they found the horse in 'shutdown' on her side with the partition on top of her, she remained in shut down whilst the partition was removed and vet was called by the time the vet arrived (15mins) horse was stood in a stable eating hay she had bruising and minor grazes, not signs of shock-the owner was very worried about re loading the mare to go home so one of the ground work instructors did it for her and the horse walked straight on-the vet and the instructors believed animals cannot retain any memory of things that create or happen in true shut down if they did they would live in a permanent state of fear-shutdown is a natural automatic self defense system is what i have learnt from those I have trained with over the years and shutdown is dangerous as they can come out of it like a rocket.
 
Twiggy2, I think you've hit the nail on the head. If I ever did something to cause an animal to shut down, I'd be mortified. The guilt would stay with me forever.
 
This is very interesting, particularly the comparisons between CM and some of the more dramatic training employed by Parelli and Monty. It's true that these big name trainers work with, and without doubt succeed with animals that might otherwise face humane destruction. Perhaps the question is whether it's justifiable to employ such techniques in these challenging situations, or if pts would indeed be a kinder option? And if justifiable, is it responsible to promote such techniques to the general public, who often will not have the experience, understanding or timing to get it right?
 
I don't understand the comparisons made between CM and Parelli. Parelli, as far as I know has never used spiked bridels or collars on horses. He has never used, as far as I know electric shock treatment either, so to make comparisons is unrealistic. If these methods truly worked in the long term, then every aggressive dog could be cured by simply putting a spiked collar on it and or shocking it. It simply isn't possible to rehabilitate every dangerous dog, especially by using these methods. Also, I reiterate and say that CM deals mostly with normal unruly pet dogs that one sees on a day to day basis. He used spiked collars to teach walk to heal. Why would you do that unless you are a total incompetent.
 
If the way to achieve a compliant and obedient dog is to shut it down with bullying, intimidation and fear then I hope I never achieve it.

About the only thing I can praise Cesar for is his emphasis on exercise.
 
california dreaming said:
I don't understand the comparisons made between CM and Parelli. Parelli, as far as I know has never used spiked bridels or collars on horses. He has never used, as far as I know electric shock treatment either, so to make comparisons is unrealistic. If these methods truly worked in the long term, then every aggressive dog could be cured by simply putting a spiked collar on it and or shocking it. It simply isn't possible to rehabilitate every dangerous dog, especially by using these methods. Also, I reiterate and say that CM deals mostly with normal unruly pet dogs that one sees on a day to day basis. He used spiked collars to teach walk to heal. Why would you do that unless you are a total incompetent.
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Parelli training ultimately aims to 'shut down' the mind of the horse so that it relies on the trainer for direction. A similar effect to 'pinning' I would have thought? I don't know much about CM in all honestly though. Parelli uses pressure halters, which can deliver severe pain and irreparable nerve damage, the Catwalk incident along with Lindas performance with the blind horse demonstrate that they are not above using harsh methods.
The fact that these all these trainers are cashing in on some very harsh methods and dressing it up as horse/dog psychology is a glaring parallel imo. It is training based on domination and subjugation, and a sad degeneration from the methods used by traditional thinking trainers of both dogs and horses.
I watched a complete unknown working with Collies today, it was an absolute pleasure to observe someone with genuine expertise train with reward and encouragement rather than coercion and bullying.
 
lastchancer said:
Parelli training ultimately aims to 'shut down' the mind of the horse so that it relies on the trainer for direction. A similar effect to 'pinning' I would have thought? I don't know much about CM in all honestly though. Parelli uses pressure halters, which can deliver severe pain and irreparable nerve damage, the Catwalk incident along with Lindas performance with the blind horse demonstrate that they are not above using harsh methods.
The fact that these all these trainers are cashing in on some very harsh methods and dressing it up as horse/dog psychology is a glaring parallel imo. It is training based on domination and subjugation, and a sad degeneration from the methods used by traditional thinking trainers of both dogs and horses.
I watched a complete unknown working with Collies today, it was an absolute pleasure to observe someone with genuine expertise train with reward and encouragement rather than coercion and bullying.
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an animal in true shut down cannot be directed, it has shut down.
I have have played at some of the parelli groundwork and for me it the idea was to open my horses mind to thought and having the confidence to try things without reprimand, if she did it wrong there was no reward when she finished and I would ask again in a slightly different way until my way of asking got the result I wanted-we both had to think and there was certainly no force involved, as for the halters anything tool used is only a harsh or soft as the hands operating it, I found it meant there was less force as the messages were less vague. just because there is a metal clip on the line you work with does not mean you HAVE to use it with force
 
What is this obsession with saying that Cesar is 'shutting down the minds' of dogs?

Personally I'd rather see a dog with a shut-down mind (whatever that means) than one who is riddled with fear and anxiety, which has stemmed from uncertain handling.

I think he has been a welcomed breath of fresh air TBH. I was getting quite fed up with watching people faffing around their dogs, dishing out a treat a minute in an attempt to get them to 'focus'.

He takes the bull by the horns and tackles things head on.
 
I'm not talking about benign training with groundwork & games, I'm talking about the more brutal stuff that Parelli (does) indulge in.

However this thread is about Ceasar Milan, whom (as I have already said) I know little about. It seems he uses rather cruel techniques under some pretense of a higher understanding? My question is; are these harsh methods justified as a last resort to save an animal? I'm not convinced they are. It is a difficult line to draw though when faced with the choice of destroying or perhaps saving a loved pet.
However if (like another poster stated earlier) CM really is promoting very harsh gadgets for general use on harmless dogs then he should be boycotted by all. Cruel, ignorant training is a big step backwards.
 
lastchancer said:
……..

However if (like another poster stated earlier) CM really is promoting very harsh gadgets for general use on harmless dogs then he should be boycotted by all. Cruel, ignorant training is a big step backwards.
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As you say 'IF'! I've never seen Milan promote or propose any harsh tools or gadgets, as I don't believe that he would consider them necessary, his stated purpose always being (all that I've ever seen, anyway), that the handler asserts their authority, without the use of 'implements' which could be considered harsh, cruel or inappropriate.

Perhaps those who are levelling accusations that he is in fact promoting the use of 'gadgets', could post the evidence on here, and for consideration. Without evidence, accusations alone cannot be given any credence, in my view.

Alec.
 
I agree with Spring Arising.Personally I can only speak from experience with using some of his methods.After reading his books his knowledge on how the dogs mind works is huge and his methods make complete sense to me.Dogs need a leader as they would in the wild.The pack are followers and want to be told what to do.The human can do this by becoming the leader and having a wonderful relationship with their dog by ensuring key rules are followed.Excercise ,discipline,and affection.Exercise to burn excessive energy natural in the dog.Then you have a relaxed dog ready for any training,affection and praise then food. My rescue dog knowing I am in control of his daily life is a joy to be around.Will do what he can to please and always wants to do the right thing.After training him not to chase our cat using Ceasers method 100% sucessfully which did not involve cruelty, those complaining need to have a think about what they are saying.
His methods in rehabilitating red zone dogs or dogs which need an electric collar short term while training them not to attack poisonous snakes which could kill them are usually the that are highlighted because it seems cruel.Of course its not pleasant but would you rather have a dead dog.His love of pitbulls is well known due to his insight and understanding of the breed and has many rehabilitated ones on his ranch.
 
Alec Swan said:
As you say 'IF'! I've never seen Milan promote or propose any harsh tools or gadgets, as I don't believe that he would consider them necessary, his stated purpose always being (all that I've ever seen, anyway), that the handler asserts their authority, without the use of 'implements' which could be considered harsh, cruel or inappropriate.

Perhaps those who are levelling accusations that he is in fact promoting the use of 'gadgets', could post the evidence on here, and for consideration. Without evidence, accusations alone cannot be given any credence, in my view.

Alec.
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totally agree
i have been watching him for years and have never seen him' promote 'the use of gadgets, far from it infact and i do not understand how you can confuse dominance with being a strong leader. if you look at the body language of the dogs that live with him, many of which are red zone cases they are not cowering from him in submission when he enters but are calm and relaxed ,the only time i have seen him use an electric collar is as Mister Ted says to teach Daddy not to go near snakes and it was used correctly and successfully.
 
Alec Swan said:
Those dogs which challenge and reject the demands of their handler, simply have to learn to 'obey'. Do your dogs obey you? If they didn't, how would you assert your dominance?

Going back to the question of how Milan enters in to a relationship with a dog, bearing in mind that the animal has views of its own(!), so the dog's system does, as you accurately describe, need 'shutting down'. Once shut down has been achieved, then upon those foundations so we build a relationship which doesn't just benefit man, but importantly, the dog too.

Alec.
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Springaraising my post was in response to this and the fact that CM does not want dogs minds shut down as they cannot learn in that state-they are beyond fear as shutdown happens to protect the animals metal wellbeing. I am not against CM or my understanding of most of what he does, as this thread shows it is open to interpretation and we all see something different-I dont like how confrontational he sometimes is but his knowledge is huge and he works with dogs most of us choose not to, however sometimes I do feel he is after a quick fix for the camera an I dontfeel that is in the dogs best interest.
 
The act of 'Shutting down' a dog's thought processes is the act of returning to the simple basics of early training. That cannot be achieved with a dog which refuses to accept discipline. With those who have the required experience with horses, they will advise that there is a return to the basics, and correctly so. Whilst the relationship between man and dog and man and horse, are in essence the same, so are the basics. It's to do with gaining the respect and compliance of the animal.

'Shutting down' is such an emotive term, and one which is rarely understood. It speaks of 'brain-washing', which in part it is, and the act of placing a dog, once again in a position where they have no choice but to accept, is the first step to rebuilding their trust in their handlers, handlers incidentally who are never their previous owners! It's a case, if you like, of a black-board rubber being applied, and the dog doubting its own, and possibly justified, concepts of the human. Once there is a clean slate, so it's the place of the competent trainer to start again, and build a position of trust, and mutual effect. Pain doesn't train dogs, and it's that simple.

As Shady so correctly says, …….. 'if you look at the body language of the dogs that live with him, many of which are red zone cases they are not cowering from him in submission when he enters but are calm and relaxed' …….. They've learned, and are happy to live with, their pack leader.

Once a dog, those with NO previous intention of acceptance, reaches the stage in regression where they wonder what's coming next, so the path forward, is relatively simple. THAT is the time to offer support, acceptance and encouragement, and that is also the time when the dog starts to understand what's required of it. Again, Milan demonstrates that for those who can see.

The worst cases of those dogs which are being viewed, without the timely input of those who handle as Milan does, are heading for an early demise, and I'll admit that I would worry for those who not truly understanding of the methods displayed, will attempt to copy, and actually make matters far worse. With the point that 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing', so those who are perhaps ill-equipped, and who would emulate Milan, failure or a worsening of a situation, is all but assured.

Alec.
 
CM regularly used prong collars and shock collars and 'forgets' to mention them. In one of his early episodes, there is a woman who wants her dog to like her cat, so the cat is in a crate and the dog is brought in. The dog has a dark hairy coat, but if you look closely he is wearing a shock collar and CM has the control in his hand. Every time he zaps the dog he yelps and eventually the dog redirects and bites the owner - great training !

In the infamous Shadow episode ( husky mix that shreds his new sweater) the dog starts out with him lead popping him on a prong collar, which makes the dog worse and then you suddenly see the dog with one of his cheesewire slip leads on instead. Shadow was subsequently returned to the rescue as despite CM 'working' with the dog to point where the dog was collapsed on the ground and wet himself, he did not help the dog, in fact made it worse. There was also a video taken of his people winding the dog up before filming to make him worse for the cameras. The dog was rehomed to someone using reward based methods and is doing very well.

He may of started out with a decent knowledge of dogs, but he has sold his soul for fame and money. His programmes are banned in several countries and recently he arrived in Germany to do his show and had to pass their basic dog behaviour test to be allowed to do his show - he failed it.

Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
 
Teaselmeg said:
Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
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Praise for a dog is different from praise for a child. Dogs don't need sweets and cuddles to know they've done right. They need to not feel anxious, stressed or wound-up - that for a dog is more than enough. I'm not disputing that Cesar does everything perfectly; everyone makes mistakes or has days where nothing seems to go right (even dog trainers who use completely different methods). But as I said before, I have respect for a lot of the things he says and teaches.

How different is a prong collar to a whip? Or a pair of spurs? As we hear often on here; 'a gadget is only as harsh as the hands that are using it', and I have never watched Cesar working in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

What does make me uncomfortable and mildly irritated, though, is watching a nervous-wreck of a dog constantly looking to their owner for praise and reward. Treat or praise a dog for that needy behaviour, and it's a vicious cycle.
 
Not sure where I said treat your dog like a child ?

Reward based training is not 'cookie pushing' which is what most people who have not looked into it properly think it is. It is about using a method that encourages the dog to learn in a stress free way, that it can understand what is required of it, without bullying it into complying. I hate seeing people yank their dog to make it sit and then nothing, no praise, no reward. If one person gave you £1 pound every time you sat down and the other person pulled on your collar until you sat down - which method would make you more likely to repeat the behaviour ? If you use treats/toys/praise to reward, it does not mean you have to walk around with biscuits in your pocket for the rest of your life, when the behaviour is well trained, just the occasional praise/reward is all it needs, if at all.
 
Teaselmeg said:
If you use treats/toys/praise to reward, it does not mean you have to walk around with biscuits in your pocket for the rest of your life, when the behaviour is well trained, just the occasional praise/reward is all it needs, if at all.
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I agree with this part and I have used treats before on many occasions (and will continue to do so!). But the thing is, Cesar isn't just training the bog-standard dog to sit or rollover.

He's usually trying to completely change the way a dog behaves or thinks. A lot of the dogs he deals with are aggressive/fearful, and treats don't have a place for those types of dogs when they're still displaying that anxious mindset. Those types of dogs (and any animal, really) NEED a leader, and need to be told what to do. That is a comfort to them, not a threat.
 
A very over used phrase dogs shutting down, if you want to see a dog shut down go and look at some of the long term residents in rescue(usually Staffies who dont do well in kennels). These dogs will be sat at the back of the kennel with a blank look on their face, have no interest in people., other dogs or food.

Some of the dogs that Cm deals with are not the sort of dogs anyone on here has dealt with apart from one I know, from what Ive seen of him he has shown great restraint and patience, the dogs are not fixed but are on the right road with guidance to the owners who are obviously given homework to do. The really bad ones are taken back to his centre and get lots of one to one, one dog even after going back to him was not returned to the owner but he found another dog for them which was much more suitable. I must say I love his pitbull Daddy and all his dogs look a really happy balanced pack of dogs which is no mean feat of training.
 
Teaselmeg said:
……..

Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. …….. !
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When a horse displays similar behaviour, and in the opinions of all who work with difficult horses, then the horse is sending out messages of offered compliance, are these people also, in your opinion and others worldwide 'well known' and wrong? If you still consider that you're right, then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.
 
Dogs dont need titbits as reward.The praise coming from your voice is their reward knowing they are doing the right thing.Try it they are perfectly happy with this and a lot less confusing for them.
 
SpringArising said:
I agree with this part and I have used treats before on many occasions (and will continue to do so!). But the thing is, Cesar isn't just training the bog-standard dog to sit or rollover.

He's usually trying to completely change the way a dog behaves or thinks. A lot of the dogs he deals with are aggressive/fearful, and treats don't have a place for those types of dogs when they're still displaying that anxious mindset. Those types of dogs (and any animal, really) NEED a leader, and need to be told what to do. That is a comfort to them, not a threat.
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I think you are spot on, but nowadays so many people think you should be the dogs friend, not its leader. Lots of people on here say the pack mentality is not right at all and dogs don't need us to be in charge. I completely agree with you that a dog needs a 'boss'.
 
Teaselmeg said:
Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
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Alec Swan said:
If you still consider that you're right, then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.
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If we maintain the focus on dogs, rather than switching to horses, then Teaselmeg voices a view expressed by many and as such most certainly does not swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

For instance, a concise explanation is here: http://en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-signals---the-art-of-survival.html

And no, the author is not an out and out academic and yes, the author has trained dogs of their own and competed with them. :D
(Just trying to pre-empt....!) :)

For the record, I think that behaviours can be interpreted in multiple ways, depending on the context/environment.
 
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That is an excellent article Gunnergundog, thank you for posting it.

Alec, I am sure we were discussing dog behaviour ? I certainly was !
 
Alec Swan said:
When a horse displays similar behaviour, and in the opinions of all who work with difficult horses, then the horse is sending out messages of offered compliance, are these people also, in your opinion and others worldwide 'well known' and wrong? If you still consider that you're right, then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.
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so a horse that is cowering, with its head turned away ears and flat back is offering compliance? not in my world, lip licking and chewing in horses are indicators of relaxation and thinking so compliance? maybe, but the rest?
 
Horses and dogs have completely different body language. Also horses are prey animals and dogs are predators.
Bit worrying that anyone can think their body language is similar.
 
twiggy2 said:
so a horse that is cowering, with its head turned away ears and flat back is offering compliance? not in my world, lip licking and chewing in horses are indicators of relaxation and thinking so compliance? maybe, but the rest?
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Two totally separate displays and messages. One is fear, and the other acceptance. Dogs also give off the very same signals. Once the animal is at the stage of wishing to listen, so that is the point where progress can be made and training can begin. Attempting to train a dog which has no wish to comply with the trainers demands, is pointless.

Training a dog, which as a puppy, learned the basic rules of following its owners wishes, is generally a straightforward matter. ALL of those dogs, or those that I've seen and which are invariably the subjects of Milan's work, have through either breed type and likely temperament or through ignorance, or a combination of both, never had the basic work done and have come to view humans as either an irrelevance, or to be feared. The principles of Milan's work are that the dog learns to respect the trainer, and so to become compliant.

The subjects which Milan works on are all invariably at the stage where the clock simply can't be turned back, learning can't be undone, and the only answer for them is to have a sudden change of their understanding put in place, and from that point, so the learning can begin.

Alec.
 
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