Would this help? (Bit question)

dibbin

dibbin

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Friend's daughter's pony is very quick and excitable, and when she gets wound up she has no brakes whatsoever, pony does bunny hops and has been known to rear occasionally. Currently ridden in a 4 ring gag, with a single rein on the snaffle or 3rd ring for flatwork and slow hacking because she doesn't get wound up and go mental when doing those, and the bottom ring for jumping/fast hacking. When it's on the bottom one pony fights the bit and throws her head in the air (pretty sure that's because of the severe bit action), but it seems to be the only way she can have any control at all when the pony gets excited.

After reading posts on here, I was going to suggest to my friend that she should try putting a curb on the bit and using double reins, as apparently that's the correct way to use it - I've never used a gag so don't really know anything about them. I'd ask about it at my yard but nobody there who uses one rides with 2 reins, so I'm pretty sure they'd just look at me like I was stupid. Do you think a curb and double reins would help?

If so, does anyone have a pic of one correctly fitted with a curb?

Cookies for replies :) but please be constructive and don't just jump on me, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong because I know b*gger all about this type of bit, so that's why I'm asking.
 
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Sounds as though you've got a three ring gag and you're perhaps confusing it with a Pelham. There can be a wealth of knowledge at yards so I would ask if I were you. Stronger bits are not always needed.
 
Well, do you mean curb as in a curb chain? I would be hesitant to put this on this bit as it is a loose ring and the curb could cause severe crushing of the chin groove, but this is my opinion and other may disagree. However yes you can use a double reins on it, one on the snaffle and one of the gag rein (usually the bottom ring) or you can use a D and attach to snaffle and bottom ring and have one rein. Its not as severe on the poll action this way as there is less leverage due to the attachment to the snaffle rein. So yes this may help. Otherwise you could try a pelham or kimblewick which use a curb chain and you can have the D rein attachment on the Pelham
 
My mare found the action of the rein when on he lower bit rings too severe and would throw her head up and get stressed.

I very quickly stopped using this bit and after trial and error found she was best in a loose ring happy mouth with central lozenge. This enabled me to have a good contact which she didn't fight.

I definitely trying with two reins, one on the snaffle and one on a lower ring could be worth trying as long as the child is competent with two reins and doesn't favour the rein on the lower ring.
 
yes double reins on the snaffle rein then the bottom ring of the gag, its better, gives a more even feel in the horses mouth and is not so severe on the poll and lips. or can use one of these,

http://www.aspca.org/assets/images/behavior-images/the-english-bridle/image-05.jpg

its a pelham but the concept is the same. Horse on left, two reins, horse on right, two rein converter so only has one rein, so for a child, less in the hand so less to think about.
 
Thanks everyone, the kid's 16 and a very good little rider, I think she'd be able to handle two reins. I'll suggest to her mum that she gives it a try :)
 
Sorry to go a tiny bit off topic - but can someone *clearly* explain why you can't put a curb chain on a gag? The only real difference between a '4 ring' gag is that obviously the gag mouthpiece can move, and that you can have an 'in between' with the gag by putting the reins on the 2nd highest ring (so why use roundings? surely this has a similar affect to the roundings, effectively being a balance between the most & least pressure the bit can give?)

Sorry, gags DO confuse me, but then I've never had need to use one of any sort. :p
 
The curb would be a lot harsher due to the loose ring of the gag, rather than the fixed pelham.

You could also try a wilkie snaffle. Similar action but less severe. I used to use a gag with two reins on one of my horses, mostly using the snaffle rein and picking up the other rein more when brakes were needed it. tbh it wasn't ever ideal but I never found a better alternative. He did throw his head up but I was able to stop. Nothing else worked.
 
well the way I always was taught that you use a curb on a fixed ring as its placement is in the chin groove which is highly sensitive area on the horses face, has lots of nerves etc etc. With a Loose ring, the curb can move about and then pinch into this groove much deeper than on a fixed ring bit (this is what I was taught and then read about in bitting books after) which is v sensitive on the groove and can cause damage to the nerves. Obviously I could be wrong ... am now going to do a lot more research on the issue to find out *heads off to search the web*
 
I'm sure the purists will shoot me down in flames but you can put a loose leather curb on the top ring which the cheek pieces attach to. A leather spur strap will do the trick...if you look at the Neue scheule bits website and look at the universal which is like a 2 ring gag, they sell them with leather curbs. I have used one on occasion on my strong cob on fun rides and it works like a dream, reduces the leverage on the poll and the curb action is softened by the leather. It sits on the jaw bones between the curb groove and where a cavesson noseband rests and is fitted loosely so only comes into play when necessary.
 
forderough said:
I'm sure the purists will shoot me down in flames but you can put a loose leather curb on the top ring which the cheek pieces attach to. A leather spur strap will do the trick...if you look at the Neue scheule bits website and look at the universal which is like a 2 ring gag, they sell them with leather curbs. I have used one on occasion on my strong cob on fun rides and it works like a dream, reduces the leverage on the poll and the curb action is softened by the leather. It sits on the jaw bones between the curb groove and where a cavesson noseband rests and is fitted loosely so only comes into play when necessary.
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yes after searching and finding some info out, this would work and people have used it, but I perhaps would only use a lip strap as a curb and not a chain if fixed here.
 
Sounds like you've got more issues other than the bit; A stronger bit is not the solution if she's tossing her head about, she's trying to tell you something, and thats usually pain!!

You need to find out why she has no brakes and why she throws her head up , she's obviously running from something.
 
AngieandBen said:
Sounds like you've got more issues other than the bit; A stronger bit is not the solution if she's tossing her head about, she's trying to tell you something, and thats usually pain!!

You need to find out why she has no brakes and why she throws her head up , she's obviously running from something.
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exactly what Angieandben says!

It isn't uncommon for a horse to run from a strong bit, or a bit used in a strong manner. It may well be that the horse isn't strong at all, but is just responding to the discomfort in her mouth. If the gag is a single joint then I would say that this would almost certainly be what is happening (have seen and fumed at the same in pony club lessons here!), even if not, it is a very strong bit (esp on the last ring!!!). I would have a back, saddle and teeth check, then go back to basics with the bitting. Starting with a french link loose ring and only working on from there if absolutely necessary. As mentioned above, if the loose ring isn't quite enough, then a french link wilkie is a good option. A horse will so rarely do something 'just to be difficult' etc, they just don't think in that way! A horse showing discomfort and telling you this should be listened too, not just bitted up.
 
She only rears very occasionally when she gets really wound up. It doesn't seem to be a pain issue, as she's fine as long as she's not doing something "exciting".

My horse flings his head about when he's excited - doesn't mean he's in pain.
 
No, but in combination with a strong bit then it is something that really should be considered as if there is something even just a little wrong then the mare may well always be a bit strong and a little unsettled until it's sorted. It is a much easier fix if there is an issue than having to try different bits and other options.
 
Sorry, but a horse that is "wound up" is not a happy horse and putting her in such strong tack is not going to help. How do you know her mouth isn't in pain?

You need to do some ground work with her to try and work out what the problem is
 
Surely if the pony is happy in the bit for other work, yet suddenly isn't when things are exciting, that's proof enough...?

Obviously the horse should go out in a headcollar, regardless of how she takes the p*ss out of the young girl - it will teach her to ride better.
Sure. Come on people, horses DO get excited! You ought to see my horse chuck his head about for no real reason (me walking onto the yard is enough) mm, yes, obviously his eyes hurt when he sees me :D
Ok, I admitted I have very little knowledge of gags but maybe it'd just be worth playing about with different mouth pieces/the curb/2 reins etc? I'd just give it a go :) But I'm known for my bit-trialing habits, I like my horses to be comfortable :)
 
In that case I'll clarify - by "wound up", I meant "overexcited", I thought they were much the same.

Sol - thank you :) sometimes an excited horse is just that - an excited horse lol.
 
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Fellewell said:
Sounds as though you've got a three ring gag and you're perhaps confusing it with a Pelham. There can be a wealth of knowledge at yards so I would ask if I were you. Stronger bits are not always needed.
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I don't think OP is getting confused with a pelham - Dutch gags do have four rings, it's just that the first ring is to attach the cheekpieces.

My question is how old and how experienced is the rider?

PLEASE do not put a vice (i.e. Curb chain) around a pony's mouth in young hands - you will do severe damage in novice hands.

Schooling and more schooling (and possibly a complete change of bit/noseband) is the answer.

I'm assuming that all the usual checks have been done?
 
The Op says the horse does not get wound up/ excited when hacking and flatting when the gag is being used on the middle ring. Only says that horse takes a dislike to the bit when it is on the bottom ring. So I think the behaviour arises when the horse starts jumping, but also does not like the action of the 4 ring gag.

Have you tried a cheltenham gag, also can be used with two reins one on the snaffle and one on the gag rein, or a kineton noseband with the gag on the third ring.

Gag pic

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle/rolled_gag.gif

Only shows one rein but you can attach another onto the snaffle bit

Noseband pic

http://img45.imageshack.us/i/kinetonnoseband2fd.jpg/
 
Eriskayowner - she's 16, been riding since she was little, and a cracking little rider.

bay_beasty - hadn't thought of a Cheltenham gag ... could probably borrow one from someone at the yard to try. I do think that the problems are partly excitement, and partly being unhappy with the single rein on the bottom ring (which is understandable).

Think I'll see if she wants to try the 4-ring with 2 reins tomorrow, I'm happy to ride pony the first time she puts them on if she doesn't want to do it.
 
Hi there. What noseband do you use? A different noseband can be a great asset.

Plus if you can try out a waterford. They are very good bits for strong animals.
 
Should have seen my lad first time out in company, excited doesn't cover it by half - he was nuts :p And I can definitely tell the difference between that and him being 'wound up', heh.

Someone actually got there before me but I'd second giving a kineton a try, they're really good :)
 
Apparently she tried her on the flat with 2 reins yesterday (I didn't see, I was at work), and she was really good, very calm and steady :) of course, jumping etc will be the real test, but I'm glad the first attempt went ok.

Although apparently a couple of the yard staff asked her why she was riding her with 2 reins, apparently it will "deaden her mouth" :confused: ok, so neither of you have ever seen a 4 ring gag ridden with 2 reins, therefore it must be wrong. I see.
 
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