Would you bankrupt yourself for a horse's vet fees?

Spring Feather said:
Alfie, re the insurance thing. As long as I can remember it's always been the case that cost of treatment is significantly less when the vet knows you are paying cash rather than them having to deal with insurance companies. I haven't insured my horses for vet fees for a very long time and I've no doubt I've saved much money over the years because of it.
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That's the conclusion I have come to. Over the years I have spent around 10k in premiums, and only claimed around 3.5k in vets fees over several horses. I would be alot better off now with that in the bank! I will be putting the "premium" in another account and using that if needed for the unexpected.
 
cptrayes said:
It isn't that simple.

One in five never go home from the hospital. Those owners go home with a bill of thousands of pounds, unless they are insured, and no horse. Of the 4 in 5 that do go home, a number which I cannot currently find but I know is not insignificant, suffer further complications and die. Of the ones that are still alive a year later many are compromised. SOME go back to the full job that they were doing.


edit - best info I can find is from 1991 - "Over the course of several months/years, up to half of colic cases which survive are likely to have mild or severe complications, and a proportion of these will have to be put down."
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You really must learn more effective research methods, cptrayes. :p :D
http://www.liv.ac.uk/equinecolic/post_operative_survival.htm

ETA: I think the key point when contemplating colic surgery, is that you don't have time to think about it or 'wait and see' when your horse is colicking - you must act quickly either to PTS or to move the horse to a clinic for operation.
S :D
 
cptrayes said:
I love my horses but they aren't part of my family. I can't replace my Dad, but in over thirty years of horse ownership I've had to replace quite a few horses. It does not compare.

Gingerwitch you and other people are writing as if it is a simple matter of "spend £x thousands and your horse will live, even if as a paddock ornament". It's not that simple. Very often, people are spending £x thousands and still ending up with an empty stable. At some point in time you have to say "enough is enough, I can afford/justify no more". Who are you, or anyone, to tell an owner where that point is?
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this^^^ completely. I also adore my horses, of course I do, otherwise why would you have them. But, they are not the be all and end all. Anyone who says so is not living in the real world I'm afraid. x
 
I think there is a point where you have to be realistic.

If the final outcome was to have a sound horse, able to be worked and not require long term pain relief then I would be prepared to go to a reasonable expense.

I am not ever prepared to fund a paddock ornament or a horse requiring long term treatment for pain relief.

I love my horses and respect them too, I would rather they be PTS than to risk them being in long term discomfort.
 
Shilasdair said:
You really must learn more effective research methods, cptrayes. :p :D
http://www.liv.ac.uk/equinecolic/post_operative_survival.htm

ETA: I think the key point when contemplating colic surgery, is that you don't have time to think about it or 'wait and see' when your horse is colicking - you must act quickly either to PTS or to move the horse to a clinic for operation.
S :D
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Thanks Shils, survival rates are as bad as I thought they were. 23% dead within a week. Over 1/3 dead within a year, over half dead within 3 years, with further complications in the meantime causing the early death.

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph and would urge everyone to decide NOW what they will do if their horse gets a colic which will kill the horse if it is not operated on, so they are not bounced into a decision, either way, that they later regret.
 
cptrayes said:
I love my horses but they aren't part of my family. I can't replace my Dad, but in over thirty years of horse ownership I've had to replace quite a few horses. It does not compare.

Gingerwitch you and other people are writing as if it is a simple matter of "spend £x thousands and your horse will live, even if as a paddock ornament". It's not that simple. Very often, people are spending £x thousands and still ending up with an empty stable. At some point in time you have to say "enough is enough, I can afford/justify no more". Who are you, or anyone, to tell an owner where that point is?
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I quite agree!
Over the years, as a family, we have spent far too long and too much money, treating dogs and cats with what proved to be terminal illnesses and realised that they would actually have been better pts much earlier.
Fortunately we've never had to choose a course of action with the horses - our fatal illnesses have all been fairly short and clear-cut.
BUT we choose not to insure the horses for vets' fees, partly because of a bad experience with an insurance company who refused to pay out much less than we had paid them over the years for a horse which had to be pts, partly because we know that we would not put any horse through colic surgery/
protracted box-rest.
Our horses are treated as pets, rather than only being kept to do a job.
We have kept field ornaments, one for 12 yrs and would do so again. I would also pay for long-term medication if it guaranteed quality of life for the horse.
I certainly would NOT bankrupt myself. I have no children but do have other horse/animals, what would happen to them? How would I pay for the on-going treatment of the horse in question? Where would this mythical horse live if I lost the house and land? I certainly wouldn't be able to afford livery fees, would I?
 
nope. i adore my horse. But if vets fees didnt cover it - they have no concept of tomorow


my last horse cost 11k in vets bills (went well over the 5k insurance)....we paid it then he was eventually pts as we literally had no money

never will i do that again
 
cptrayes said:
Thanks Shils, survival rates are as bad as I thought they were. 23% dead within a week. Over 1/3 dead within a year, over half dead within 3 years, with further complications in the meantime causing the early death.

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph and would urge everyone to decide NOW what they will do if their horse gets a colic which will kill the horse if it is not operated on, so they are not bounced into a decision, either way, that they later regret.
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I have decided that if any of mine get colic that requires surgery they will be PTS. My vet is respectful of this and it's on my notes if I'm not able to be contacted.
 
Alfiem said:
I have decided that if any of mine get colic that requires surgery they will be PTS. My vet is respectful of this and it's on my notes if I'm not able to be contacted.
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tbh mines had colic 3 times (gas tho) if she had impaction colic, im honestly not sure i could put her through it either.... :(

sounds awful but with this horse im very realistic... anything broken though thats definate euthanasia.

I had a horse on box rest for 12 months - it was awful. never should have allowed it
 
I think it depends on your personal circumstances.
I have a 13 yo, who has been unridable, but comfy on danilon every 2nd day for the last 9 years
He cost £1500 to buy
Insurance spent £3,500 on him
I spent £2000 + over the years on jabs, tildren and analgesia, above insurance costs.
As it stands hes insured but if his condition deteriorated further, needing more treatment, tbh id have to think long and hard about it, i dont think im selfish, infact i think ive done alright by him, hes had every chance to come sound, to no avail. There comes a point when its just not feasable to keep throwing money at the problem.
I also have a 27 yo retired mare, who ive already made my mind up, if she presents with an issue that will likely cause increased discomfort or has a poor prognosis she will be pts, ive already discussed it with the vet and i love every bone in her body.
Both these horses mean the world to me, and i have looked after them well and given them the best veterinary treatment when needed but i wouldnt bankrupt myself for them

Would it bankrupt me, probably not ( at this point in time ) but as others have said, when you have other dependants, you do the best you can as an individual within your means
 
I would try my best for my horse and do almost anything.

But i also have a 3 year old daughter to think about.
Whilst we could make cut backs and save money, putting her future at risk would be something we would do anything to avoid.

So id do almost anything that was possible but it if wasnt i would do the kindest thing, weather that be putting to sleep or something else.
 
Ibblebibble said:
No i would not bankrupt myself for a horse or any other animal, it would be rather foolish for a start as a horse is considered an asset and could be taken from you by the receivers to be sold to help pay off your debt!
Anyone who has faced crippling debt and been through bankruptcy would know how utterly soul destroying it is and would not willingly put themselves and close ones through it, and yes i do speak from experience:(
By taking ownership of my horses i have committed myself to providing for them to the best of my ability and that includes financially, and because i am not a millionaire there are limits to my finances, now i'm not going to put a figure on it because it's no one elses' business! Of course i would do my utmost for them but there are so many factors that would have to be taken into account, the age of the horse and it's long term prognosis for a start. one thing is for sure though, i would not let my heart rule my head.
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^^this. And I have to consider my family: have 2 young children, my OH has absolutely no interest in horses and I know what his answer would be.

I am making sure I have a "pot" put by in case of emergency, and my horses are insured for vets' fees but if there came a point where the cost of treatment was unaffordable ...
 
Shilasdair said:
I suppose it all depends how selfish you are in life, and how much time you spend thinking about 'me, me, me'.
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Exactly. I have a family to support so do not have the luxury of thinking 'me, me, me' and have to balnce my/my horses needs against everyone elses.

I could never bankrupt myself for a pet, for that reason. It has been pointed out further up the thread that it would also be pretty pointless as the horse would be taken as an asset to face an uncertain future!
 
folks have used the word bankruptcy lightly in this thread, so just to clarify, bankruptcy is a terrible serious step - with huge long & short term implications,
it becomes difficult/impossible to get insurance, any form of credit, mortgage, fuel suppliers may insist on pre-payment meters etc etc. ALL your creditors will get litle or nothing - why should they suffer because you have a horse. It may effect your employment in the future [ & not just in obvious ways - i had hoped to foster but that may now be impossible]
Incidentally, horses are not generally seen as assets, particularly if you own a single one, & are listed as liabilities. Ironically, those who own several with some real worth [ prob over 5 grand each] might find their other more valuable animals listed as assets & sold to pay for care for the ill/injured one.
As someone who has been through bankruptcy [ caused by the failture of my consultancy business & the end of a relationship], quite frankly it is a horrible business offered to individuals who have no other options, is it really right to use this because of debt caused by owning a horse?
 
there is no way i would bankrupt myself for any horse, and even if i was prepared to, theres no way my husband would allow it. my riding horses are insured and my retired ones have a self imposed vet fee limit before pts. that might sound harsh to some but that is reality to me. i love my horses but not at the expense of the humans in my life.
 
cptrayes said:
There is a strong argument in Psychology that all apparently altruistic behaviour is still motivated by thinking about "me, me, me".

The basis of the argument is that you would not do what you do unless it made you feel good, or at the very least unless you thought it would make you feel worse to do something else.

Those people who keep their horses alive and run up huge debts are doing it because it would make them feel bad not to do that for an animal they love. It is debatable whether they are actually doing it for the animal at all. And it certainly does not give them the justification to imply that those who choose a different path are more selfish than they are.

Or does it?
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Echo this!!

We all have things in our lives that shape us and the way we think and react. I lost my beloved horsey teenage daughter and swore that I would honour her life by doing all I could to enjoy what life I had and not spend it stuck at home being miserable, to me that enjoyment comes from riding and competing when I can. I have already lost 4/5 out of the 10 years since she died due to horse and my lameness. current horse is coming back from a bruised tendon so fingers crossed it will happen soon

Simply put no I wouldn't even get into serious debt either. Been there many years ago bought on by illness and loss of job, horrid nasty place to be!

I live on my own and have no one else to consider BUT does that mean that I should go further than anyone else NO I don't think so. Just because I don't have children living at home does not mean I should give up my already tiny house for any animal no matter how much they mean to me. I never go on holiday so can't give that up. I wouldn't even put myself in that dark dark place called debt NO WAY. If you have ever been there you would understand, if not do not DARE to even try and imagine what it is like :mad:

There are so many stories of I spent 'ridiculous amounts' on said horse and still it is not sound or had to pts. (I have one of them)

as for the person who said you should have 8K to spend. well I know an awful lot of people and not one of them would or could spend that kind of money.
I wouldn't do it if I had it. yes I would spend 5k insurance and 3/4k on top if I was assured of good outcome BUT not 8k of my own money.

Reason:- same horse could do similar thing the next day.
That 8k could go into a bank account and make a massive difference to my future grandchild (when ever that maybe)
Or shoot me, buy me a lovely new horse, irrelevant as I don't have 8k anyway :p

I learnt with my last horse that just because you throw a lot of money at one problem doesn't mean that is anywhere near the end of it. I did it over and over again and will NEVER ever do it again

So yes I would PTS and go out and buy another one, as soon as I could afford it
 
No I wouldn't.

I am actually facing something similar at the moment. Insurance have excluded my mares right hind leg. A couple of months ago she became lame. The problem is her right hind leg (typical would be the leg that is excluded) so insurance will not cover any of the costs! Everything I am paying is out of my own money, I do not have a credit card or any loans. So far I have spent £500. She appears to be sound at the moment. Vet is out this week to let me know the outcome. If she is sound she will be brought back into work. If she is field sound I will put her on grass livery for the rest of her life. However if she needs more tests that are likely to get into the £1000's she will be PTS. I simply cannot afford it and I will not get into debt for her. I have seen a family member get into so much debt he became homeless and suffered from depression. I will not let this happen to me.

Will I get another Horse after? Yes, once I have saved up enough money to buy another. What is wrong with that?
 
rubysmum said:
folks have used the word bankruptcy lightly in this thread, so just to clarify, bankruptcy is a terrible serious step - with huge long & short term implications,
it becomes difficult/impossible to get insurance, any form of credit, mortgage, fuel suppliers may insist on pre-payment meters etc etc. ALL your creditors will get litle or nothing - why should they suffer because you have a horse. It may effect your employment in the future [ & not just in obvious ways - i had hoped to foster but that may now be impossible]
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Thank you SO MUCH for saying this!

It seems some people in this thread think that bankruptcy just means being in debt, when it is actually so much worse!
 
Everyone has a point where they have to say enough, unless they are Bill Gates. It's just a fact of life.

I hope I would do absolutely everything possible until reaching that point as long as that was within the welfare interests of the horse (no point putting a horse through the mill if the chances of them recovering to be at least field sound are tiny IMO), but once that point was reached I would have to PTS. I wouldn't like having to make that choice and I'd hope not to get to that point, but it does exist and that's all there is to it.
 
Meandtheboys said:
I think every ones personal circumstances will definitly be a key to any decision, but me and OH have always said if its ' life saving' and our dogs / horses would still have some sort of value in life then we would remorgage the house, if prognosis was poor and and reduce value of life then whether it be money or not we would be brave enough to make the right call.
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^^^this^^^ and we have done for one of our dogs. She's now happy and bouncing. But I wouldnt lose my home, i'd work a lot of hours to keep it all going (and have done) but the animal would need to have a good life after. I wouldnt pay huge monthly costs keeping my old boy alive either although it'd kill me PTSing him.
 
chessy said:
Thank you SO MUCH for saying this!

It seems some people in this thread think that bankruptcy just means being in debt, when it is actually so much worse!
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. . . and if you are declared officially bankrupt, they will take literally everything you own apart from personal essentials like clothes and sell it to realise some capital with which to pay your creditors. I've never been bankrupt but a friend was - she used to breed and show dogs and all the dogs had to be sold.
 
As others have said, bankrupty is a major thing, not a way of dodging your debts (although sadly alot of people seem to treat it like that) and no I wouldn't go that far, but my horse has cost me in excess of £30,000 in the 16 years I have her, all for drugs which without she would have been put down 16 years ago. Am I sorry - yes, do I REGRET it- no. She gave me hours of fun and pleasure and now she is enjoying her retirement. I was never one for possessions anyway. I waited decades to have my own horse and knew instantly she was the one so having her put down and starting over again never even crossed my mind. At the end of the day it is only naughts on a piece of paper and I will be so much the poorer for losing her.
 
I'd do everything I possibly could for my horses but I certainly wouldnt get "bankrupt" in doing so, I have a OH and other animals to think of aswell.

If said horse needed treatment/ surgery etc and there was a really good survival rate/ positive outcome then I'd go ahead (within reason), but if there wasnt a high survival rate/ or positive outcome then I wouldnt put my horse through it - been there and done that before.

I'm quite weary about surgery now after losing a youngster earlier on in the year who had to be PTS after a reaction to the anesthetic after he had an operation (no choice - he was left paralysed). I know its not heard about alot, but you always think it wouldnt happen to you and when it does, its the worse thing ever. You never quite know how things will turn out.
 
After seeing the poor state of several horses after colic surgery I too would never send a horse off to be operated on. Of the 5 I know of in the last 7 years - not one has lived the year out... all different ages, breeds, and types of colic. The recovery of the last one was heart breaking and the poor girl looked awful till the day she gave up on life - and I do blame the vets for this - she should never have been taken to Liverpool, the facilities back at the livery yard would never have suited a recovering horse and the horse was just a hollow when she came back.

Now an other situation - what would you have done in this position?:-

My horse had a very serious eye problem last year - after several weeks of treatement, and various lenses being fitted - it was 50/50 if we need surgery to remove the eye. Now I had rocked up 2.5 k already on vets bills , the op was going to cost approx 2k - and then follow up treatement. If i had been insured and the money was going to run out at the 3k.... what is being suggested here is that i would have pts.

In the end we were lucky and he did not have to have the op - but i was still left with the 2.5k bill BUT i would have found the other money to have the eye removed if it had come to that.
 
That's an easy decision Gingerwitch. Eye removal is not life threatening and nor, in most cases, is it even life limiting. The decision depends entirely on how much you are prepared to spend to have a horse which is pretty much guaranteed to return to a full working life with no further complications. There are one eyed horses doing BE eventing. It is clearly worth spending at least as much as a horse with the same capabilities and age will cost to buy, without even taking into account any emotional attachment involved.

Your example has almost no bearing whatsoever on most of the cases people have to deal with, which are fraught with uncertainty over the horse's prospects of a return to health, never mind work.
 
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Tickles said:
. I for one am happy to have a go at any horse owner who takes on an animal without a good degree of certainty of being able to afford an 8k vet's bill.

I won't own until I can afford to.
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So people on low incomes like me, who get an older semi-retired horse no-one else would want for little or no money, shouldn't be allowed to?

Mollie is insured for accident, but not illness because of her age. With me she will have a loving devoted no-frills home. I will do my best to make sure she never suffers. A generous friend has offered to help if she ever needs vets bills paying, but that's not going to be a bottomless pit, so if she falls very ill and £k's are needed, she'll have a painless end.

I'm in my mid-fifties, my financial situation is unlikely to change. According to you, I should never have a horse. Are we to live in a world where only the rich should have horses?

Gingerwitch said:
Sorry - but to me you are cold and callous - its not something you can plan for and tbh 3k in vets bills and thats the end of the line - you cant buy a holiday anywhere decent for 3k in this day and age..... 3k and that's all your prepared to push yourself too - suggest you give up the horses and keep goldfish - you can always scooptthem up in a net and wack em on concrete to put them out of their misery.
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Utterly ridiculous post. I don't have holidays either, "anywhere decent" or otherwise. :rolleyes:
 
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