Would you buy a Dressage Horse that won't hack?!

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Becki1802

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Hi,
I am thinking about selling my lovely KWPN. He was imported from Holland as a mature horse who had been doing Z1 (Med / Adv) aged 7-8 although he never placed at this level and I didn't realise how different his upbringing would have been. I've learnt lots about him and he jumps well to 90cm but isn't brave enough to go bigger - I wanted a SJ and it is only after researching the horse I found I'd bought myself a DR horse - dodgey SJ dealer you see!!! He is terrible to hack - a child can ride him schooling but hacking out he is getting worse and worse & he is only happy if he gets to go home. It is almost like he is agoraphobic. He is completely chilled at events and competitions, travels well and just gets on and does the business for DR.
Anyway I now have a 4yo that I am bringing on to SJ and Event and don't have the time for him. He is only 11 and he is going to waste. He is a great dressage horse - I have 'played' at Prelim / Novice and never got less than 65% normally 70%. I don't know my levels but I am sure he could do Elementary or maybe more - he has changes, half pass, etc. I just want him to be a happy horse, doing what he is best at.
My question is to you dressage riders - is hacking important???

I was reading the post below and some don't seem to do it at all!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=481875&page=2
 
Mine won't hack either, KWPN as well. Showjump bred (father was Grand Prix) but too scared to do it so I've converted him to dressage. I've had him since he was broken and he is agoraphobic too.

I hope you find a good home for yours, if anyone wants mine (working medium, got spavins, weaves and won't travel unless tied down either :) ) let me know!
 
I think you are in a bit of catch 22 with this.

Certainly there are many dressage riders that couldn't care less if they never hacked. However IME these riders wouldn't be looking for an 11yo Novice horse.

For what it sounds your horse has done, he would likely be suited to an amateur, RC team person type of level (so Novice/Elementary max) but the majority of these riders would want to hack a bit.

So no, not totally out of the question to find him a non-hacking dressage home, but I would say a very limited market.
 
I might have undersold him a little here! He could do more than Novice - Elementary or Medium - he has only done Novice with me because I am not interested in dressage and have only been doing the local, cheap unaffiliated stuff!!! If affiliated based on our results we'd be out of novice on points already!!!
But I do appreciate what your saying though - The top riders who don't hack wouldn't want him. I just don't know what to do with him and it is such a shame!!!
 
My old dressage horse (sec D - yes, he was a dressage horse!), wouldn't hack. At the time we were stabled on Ashdown forest, and I'd watch everyone else hacking into the forest.
He worked so hard in the school, it would've been a good unwinder to go for a hack, but no go. I felt it would've kept him fresher in his head and not so stale.
We coped without hacking, but would have prefered it to be an option.
 
It really depends on the level at which he is competitive. If he is a schoolmaster to Medium then he could command a good price despite the hacking (if he was imported at 7-8 years old though he will have loads of points added on by BD and he will need either assessment (is this applicable really?) or downgrading (which is dependent of the rider grouping) - all this may affect the price). To prove he is a schoolmaster he would need to have qualified for the regionals at the relevant level, i.e. qualifications at least at Novice and Elementary and some good marks at Medium.

If he is more of a Novice level competition horse, play around at Elem/Med at home, kind of horse, I think most of your market would also want to hack and this would affect the price.

The problem with threads like the ones above is that people can end up with a horse that won't hack but wouldn't necessarily buy one that won't hack if you see what I mean.
 
Thanks, I think I'd need to spend some money BD first and get him some results to prove what I say he is. I have his Dutch record but as I say that stops about 2-3 years ago.

I just want to do right by the horse - he is a gentle giant but can be so naughty when he doesn't want to hack!!!!! I don't even care about the money - just a good home for my lad. Mum is riding him at the moment but if she doesn't get on with him he has to be sold or PTS :-( I'd rather the latter than him go to a home where he gets beaten up to try to force him to hack!!!!!
 
you might be surprised - i would happily buy/long term loan a horse that doesnt hack - our hacking isnt great TBH & it doesnt fill me with any great joy & at least people would know what they were getting if they bought your horse
 
:-) I guess if I advertised him correctly and for long enough maybe there would be hope - home more important than price. I love that horse and he'd be great for someone who wanted to DR, DR, DR! & even pop a small course of jumps!!! Maybe you need him on long term loan rubysmum ?! xx
 
This may not be appropriate for your horse, it does say hacking but this may not be required, but have a look at this ad on Horsequest 41654 , it could be worth a call as he fits the bill in most ways and would be a lifelong home.
The other thing to try is somewhere like Talland they take schoolmasters sometimes.
 
Thanks!! Funnily enough I know Peggy Douglas... her son shoes said horse!!!! I might mention him to her. Only snag I can see is she wants something with 'a truly co-operative nature' - he can be bugger when he doesn't want to do something... like hack!!!!
 
it wouldnt bother me, but he would have to be showing a good half pass, established changes and talent for pi/pa for most dressage divas to bother with an 11yo horse with no BD record.

do you have any dressagey friends who could ride him a few times a week and get some results at med/adv med on his record???
 
If you were willing to loan him I think it would be much easier. It's all a question of price. I think you could sell him for 2k with the hacking issue, although if he could hack it would be more like 5k, with a BD record more like 8k.
 
I'd have him like a shot if the timing were a bit better. I'm not bothered about hacking or competing, and a horse to play with in the school would be perfect!

If he's still around late spring next year - I'd be interested in coming to see him. I've got too much work on at the moment to contemplate having a horse as well - but things should start to change in March.
 
Out of interest hows he bred? Personally the hacking issue wouldnt be a problem as around here the hacking is rubbish and all main roads so hardly bother anyway.
 
If you'd like to post him to me, it would all be fine! :p I'm no fan of hacking really, am a 'novice' I guess as far as competing etc, although an ambitious one that would quite like a horse that would go out even just to 'play' at the higher levels and maybe not win. So there must be more people out there who would be happy to take on a slightly older, capable horse who doesn't like hacking??
 
ihatework said:
I think you are in a bit of catch 22 with this.

Certainly there are many dressage riders that couldn't care less if they never hacked. However IME these riders wouldn't be looking for an 11yo Novice horse.

For what it sounds your horse has done, he would likely be suited to an amateur, RC team person type of level (so Novice/Elementary max) but the majority of these riders would want to hack a bit.

So no, not totally out of the question to find him a non-hacking dressage home, but I would say a very limited market.
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Totally agree with the above - based on his experience I think selling him as a "dressage horse" would be misleading.

He's more of a RC allrounder but as above, I think you'll struggle to find someone competing at that level who doesn't want to hack.
 
If he was mine and I wanted to sell and wasn't too concerned about getting money back out of him, I would send to a pro to get him competing at Medium level so he has a recent comp record.

I think if he has reasonable results at Med/Ad.Med and can play with the higher movements, the hacking will not be an issue.
 
I would happily take on a horse who wouldn't hack if I was only looking for a horse to dressage.....however it would depend for me on where the horse wont hack, if that makes sense.
We have a sand track and 80 acres of fields, I wouldnt care if I never rode on the roads, but I wouldn't buy a horse who wouldnt atleast work out in the fields!
I agree with the others who said get him out at medium doign some BD and prove he has the ability then there will be more of a market for him :)
 
I never had a horse I couldn't teach to "hack" (I'm assuming that means trail riding). So in my opinion, it wouldn't be a big deal. And frankly, I find it ironic that people want a horse trained to half pass, etc, but can't train the horse to listen and relax on a trail ride. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of dressage. ;)

I wouldn't pass on a horse that doesn't hack, but I'd question his training. And I would be very cynical about the claim that he's fine at shows and different environments. I can't wrap my brain around a horse freaking out on a trip through a field who doesn't freak out in a field with a dressage ring on it. I'm not saying you're lying, just saying that's what I would think if I saw the horse for sale.
 
core said:
I never had a horse I couldn't teach to "hack" (I'm assuming that means trail riding). So in my opinion, it wouldn't be a big deal. And frankly, I find it ironic that people want a horse trained to half pass, etc, but can't train the horse to listen and relax on a trail ride. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of dressage. ;)

I wouldn't pass on a horse that doesn't hack, but I'd question his training. And I would be very cynical about the claim that he's fine at shows and different environments. I can't wrap my brain around a horse freaking out on a trip through a field who doesn't freak out in a field with a dressage ring on it. I'm not saying you're lying, just saying that's what I would think if I saw the horse for sale.
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I have to say that you obviously have no experience of the kind of horse we are talking about. Take mine, for example. I bought him at four, newly broken. My own experience is 30 years of buying horses other people could not manage and had even been hospitalised by. I failed with only one, because he went blind. Many of the others were sold in good conscience after reschooling to children who went on to compete them very succesfully.

My then four year old is, and always has been LETHAL when you try to hack him out on his own. Hacked out in company at the age of seven he had to take a lead off a newly broken three year old, something the 3 year old's owner has never stopped ribbing me about :) After five years I reached a stage where I personally can hack him, but I would never trust him with anyone else. For the last month, while I have been playing on my new arena, we have not hacked. At the age of nine, just because we had not done a hack for three weeks, he was rearing, bucking, spinning, breasting a rusty metal gate, you name it, just because he saw some free range hens where there have been free range hens for the whole five years he has done this hack. His heart was pushing my heels out away from his side, it was beating so hard. He was genuinely scared out of his wits by something he has seen more than five hundred times before. He can produce exactly the same behaviour when daffodils bloom on a verge where they were not blooming last week.

I dont blame you for your misconception. Until I met mine, I would have thought exactly what you have written.

It's my experience that KWPNs are like this more often than other horses. They have been so highly bred for their movement that some of them simply do not have a normal horse brain in their heads.

Lets take mine again as an example. He boxes out the windows of lorries with his front feet unless he is tied down when he travels quietly. My mis-management? Hardly. He did it in the lorry he was imported in before I bought him and he has a full brother, who I have never so much as seen, who does the same thing. This behaviour is genetic, not a failure of training.



ps the reason why we can take these horses away from home and compete them is precisely that - they are away from home. By hacking them, we are asking them to leave home and go further and further away from home, and that is what scares them. Add to that the fact that horses are programmed to spot and react to change, and you will find that hacking these horses in a strange place is often much easier than hacking them on a route that they know well. My own will happily hack around a local farm ride once a year, but not down a road he last did two days ago. At a dressage competition, he recognises white boards and knows what will happen there and is settled.
 
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Core, a lot of horses on the continent are probably never hacked out. Also depends on what the "hacking" is like. Straight out onto busy roads if horse is not well behaved is no fun.
 
CPtrayes- you pretty much convinced me not to purchase a horse that can't hack out. He freaks out trailering, riding, etc... Why would an adult ammy be happy with that? Leave those to people with the knowledge (or the death wish) to handle them.
 
Cptrayes - and that is exactly why i personally won't buy another kwpn. You have described my experience with them to a tee. They're not all like it but in my experience of them there are just some with the genetic, hot-housed mass bred characteristics which just do not cope with a 'normal' horsey life. I love warmbloods but would always go german these days - safer all round! ;-)

Despite that, if he was the right sort for me i would tkae on a non-hacking horse if everything else checked out. Just to say to the OP there will be someone willing to take him on if he's priced right but the market is hard at the moment so you might be better off exploring ling term loans for a while.
 
Personally I won't buy any horse that won't hack no matter what it is - I find it beneficial and can't stand schooling all the time! For my horses (and my sanity!) its important to have the break between schooling/working and then a more leisurely hack. So for me, I wouldn't buy - no. But that doesn't mean others won't!

I mainly event so don't know the dressage market as well, but I'm sure there is someone out there who is happy to buy a good horse who doesn't hack. But it will massively reflect on price (well, for me anyway). Mentioned before you could try Talland, they rarely take the horses hacking from what I can gather and are often looking for good schoolmasters. But otherwise, I'd get him competing and training up to a decent level - any horse can do Prelim/Novice well enough, in order to sell a horse that has other faults you really want them to stand out in other spheres. If you can possibly reg him BD and get a few good tests under his belt so people can see a record.
 
anuvb said:
Cptrayes - and that is exactly why i personally won't buy another kwpn. You have described my experience with them to a tee. They're not all like it but in my experience of them there are just some with the genetic, hot-housed mass bred characteristics which just do not cope with a 'normal' horsey life. I love warmbloods but would always go german these days - safer all round! ;-)

Despite that, if he was the right sort for me i would tkae on a non-hacking horse if everything else checked out. Just to say to the OP there will be someone willing to take him on if he's priced right but the market is hard at the moment so you might be better off exploring ling term loans for a while.
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My new one is a Westphalian. Chalk and cheese :) !

I realise I'm stuck for life with the other. I'd never have bought him if I'd known but there is something curiously endearing about his neediness. Plus he's well on the way to giving me tempi changes, not bad for a showjumper!
 
Yes if he/she was what i wanted. My daughter has a dressage horse who is a nightmare to hack. Managable in company but absoloutley bananas on his own and its almost frightening to watch. We dont mind much hacking isn't important to my daughter although she does try to take him out in company once a week if possible so he sees a bit more of the world than just the arena. He is generally a sweet heart in every other aspect and lovely to have around.
 
I find Hacking stressful, my horse isnt easy but manageable but its the things we meet out there, like snarling dogs etc.
Id love a horse that I could compete on and have fun as my boy can do it at home but changes to demon horse at competitions.
Its strange isnt it how he's fine going to different venues without a problem, yet struggles hacking out. They can be such odd creatures cant they.
 
Wow - logging on this morning and lots of good advice and bits to respond to. All your views are appreciated so thanks for replying.

I have by no means made up my mind about what to do with him - he is currently being hacked in company by my mum, she is having a lesson once a week but he has been naughty this week and it worries me. I have found out they haven't been feeding his calmer and this may explain why he now isn't happy even in company, alternatively he might be trying it on!!! I'm off home this weekend to ride him for myself.

In trying to keep my first post short and catchy I thought I should maybe clarify a few points in case there is the perfect home out there reading this post!!!!!

He has hacked both alone and in company for me. When in regular routine - daily work, when he trusts his rider he will go alone - when I had the time to do him justice he would hack 95% of the time no problems. However, he isn't going to be my SJ superstar so I feel the opportunity with the 4 year old is too good to miss - my instructor really likes the youngster.

I just feel by saying he doesn't hack well and explaining to a prospective purchaser I am doing the responsible thing. I don't want him sold as a 'straight forward allrounder' like he was sold to me. If people think the worst and get a pleasant surprise that he will hack for them then bonus!!!

He was imported aged 10 and prior to that he had never hacked, had never been in a field and had only DR DR DR. So with hindsight it isn't that surprising he is the way he is. For those that don't know about continental horses my research says that most live their whole lives in big barns and go stable to menage, stable to lorry to comp to lorry to stable, stable to menage - You get the idea. I worked so hard to 'teach' and improve him but give him a month off and he'll be a monkey on his own. Had I got him aged 4 he probably wouldn't be such a monkey. It is as wench says I'm afraid!!!

Ironically he is great in traffic, great having a canter on the moor - completely snaffle mouthed and I find him enjoyable to hack. But I can't say that he won't throw a wobbly and try to head for home and if you beat him he will rear.
He has had all sorts of checks, instructors and even a behaviourist... it is nothing I am doing wrong, he just finds the whole thing stressful and we believe he has been beaten in the past and so his behaviour can be pretty extreme in response as he is afraid of being beaten.

For those suspicious about competitions - he would have done these as a young horse in Holland - there are lots of 'friends' warming up around him and he is very very relaxed as it is familiar to him. You can leave him tied up to the box munching, he travels like a dream and he is generally fab. I can't say he would never be naughty but he has been great in all the dressage I've done - 20 competitions or so. It is like he knows his job when he is there and he just gets on with it!!! Everywhere I take him people are shocked by just how chilled he is. The reason he won't SJ bigger than 90cm or 1m is because he is a wuss & gets upset - it is his nature - a big scaredy cat!!!

He has very established changes, good half pass and I've never tried anything more so he may be a dab hand at other things. I have evidence he did Med/Adv in Holland so I know he can do more that I have done so please stop calling him a Novice!!!! I don't think calling him a "dressage horse" would be misleading just because all his competitions were done abroad!!!

I think I have had some great advice here from those who suggest getting him to a few BD comps and maybe a good BD rider to find out what he really knows. Maybe I could film it for the ad. So thank you for that millitiger, Cheiro1 et al.

@ellie_e - he is by Elcaro so a dressage stallion. His mothers lines are a bit more SJ I think - his grandsire is G Ramiro Z - I'd have to check his passport again.

@Sol - he is in being despatched special delivery ;)

@Cptrayes and anuvb - sadly I agree KWPNs are a naughty breed!!! I think mind is more a product of his upbringing though so I would have another KWPN but only if it had a UK upbringing from say age 3 / 4!!!

@hcm88 - I love hacking and I made him do it and it was great when it all went ok but I'm just hoping there are riders out there who don't care about it so much!!!

@Louby - your a brave woman - I just want to kill mine for not hacking, yours must be a demon!!! As you said they are funny animals.

I don't care about the money, I just care about the welfare of the horse. My concern with making him cheap would be that some idiot would buy him but I like the idea of a long term loan - at least I can protect him then from people who want him to behave like a machine!!!!
 
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