Would you class her as dangerous?

[rowan666]

Is she dangerous? No, not if common sense and horsemanship are applied. I suppose she could be if a total novice went to catch her, but then I suppose we could say ALL horses are dangerous in the wrong hands.

^ i agree with this 100%. My anglo will kick if you try and alter rugs while they are on him or myther him when he takes his first few mouth fulls of feed if god forbid its 5mins late! These are his quirks which everyone who has contact with him is made aware of. I certainly would never class him as dangerous! Hes faultless in every other aspect and my 9yr old son handles and rides him and you dont get many young arab/tb's that will let a kid drag them around without batting an eyelid!

 

[Wagtail]

Agree. The people suggesting PTS

I think some people are suggesting this about the OP's horse but I was suggesting it as a possible course of action, after all physical checks had been done about another horse which was displaying far more dangerous behaviour.

 

[Wagtail]

I have a mare that I've had for years, and can be an absolute cow out in the field to catch. If she doesn't want to be caught, she'll back up toward you waving her back feet, tail swishing, ears pinned back. To be honest, this doesn't really bother me too much, as we've worked out an 'understanding' between us - she lodges her objections and makes her feelings known, I 'stalk' her patiently for a while , after 10 -20 minutes she'll give it up and allow herself to be caught, and then she's as good as gold and an absolute pleasure to do and does her job brilliantly.

Is she dangerous? No - but she has a strong personality and her own opinions on things. This is fine by me - I know how to keep myself safe and I'm happy to allow her her little peculiarities as long as ultimately she does the job she is supposed to do.

Is she dangerous? No, not if common sense and horsemanship are applied. I suppose she could be if a total novice went to catch her, but then I suppose we could say ALL horses are dangerous in the wrong hands.

^ i agree with this 100%. My anglo will kick if you try and alter rugs while they are on him or myther him when he takes his first few mouth fulls of feed if god forbid its 5mins late! These are his quirks which everyone who has contact with him is made aware of. I certainly would never class him as dangerous! Hes faultless in every other aspect and my 9yr old son handles and rides him and you dont get many young arab/tb's that will let a kid drag them around without batting an eyelid!

Hmmm, quirks or not, I don't think it is ever acceptable for a horse to kick or threaten to kick a human that was not causing them pain or abusing them. I would not put up with it. Obviously, if a horse is food protective then I would avoid fiddling with rugs etc whilst they were eating, but if that type of behaviour is ever shown to me then I stamp on it straight away.

 

[littleshetland]

The mare I described above is getting on in years now (late teens) and has performed as the most amazing servant. I honestly cannot fault her. However, the perfect horse does not exist (neither does the perfect dog, cat, human etc), and I don't expect it too. I am more than happy to accept her quirks (dangerous or otherwise) because she rewards me in spades. To be honest, I don't expect her negative behaviour to change now (in spite of my best attempts in the past). Its up to me to keep myself safe and use what skill and knowledge I have as she is absolutely worth the inconvenience (a sense of humour is a big help).

I appreciate that there is a balance to struck here, and it strikes me that one persons idea of 'dangerous' behaviour is quite different from anothers!

When I can't be bothered to allow a horse some room to express its personality and quirks, is probably the day I'll give up horses all together.

 

[Wagtail]

The mare I described above is getting on in years now (late teens) and has performed as the most amazing servant. I honestly cannot fault her. However, the perfect horse does not exist (neither does the perfect dog, cat, human etc), and I don't expect it too. I am more than happy to accept her quirks (dangerous or otherwise) because she rewards me in spades. To be honest, I don't expect her negative behaviour to change now (in spite of my best attempts in the past). Its up to me to keep myself safe and use what skill and knowledge I have as she is absolutely worth the inconvenience (a sense of humour is a big help).

I appreciate that there is a balance to struck here, and it strikes me that one persons idea of 'dangerous' behaviour is quite different from anothers!

When I can't be bothered to allow a horse some room to express its personality and quirks, is probably the day I'll give up horses all together.

And I agree up to a point. Nothing worse than flattening a horse's personality and spirit. I actually like quirky horses. My old mare who was my horse of a lifetime was a real character, but very much like marmite. Many people would not have stood for some of the things I allowed her to do. But they were not dangerous, and I knew I would never be passing her on. One of the things she did was enjoy a 'wrestle' and a play nibble. But she only ever did it with me, and I enjoyed it too. She was also a little bit bargy if she got excited or frightened. So I do realise where you are coming from. But I would have felt very 'hurt' if my mare had threatened to kick me, and it wouldn't have been allowed. But then others would not have allowed the behaviour which I overlooked and even cherished in her.

 

[tallyho!]

I just think she needs some regumate or a marble. Sounds like a hormonal mare thats all.

 

[Dizzle]

I used to know a pony like, difficult to catch and aggressive, he actually once even charged at me to go for me when I tried to catch him.

BUT a little bit of patience and we gained respect for each other, I made my visits pleasant and didn't back down when he tried it on. He ended up a lovely little chap to deal with and I became very fond of him. In the wrong hands he could have been dangerous if for instance I'd have given him a smack he'd have smacked back but I just made life pleasant for him and refused to back down.

 

[littleshetland]

Wagtail, another reason I figure my mare cannot be classed as truly dangerous, is if she really wanted to 'get' me. she would have done by now - I've had her a long time, and she genuinely can be very loving and affectionate at times.

I guess 'dangerous' depends on our own expectations, experience and knowledge.

 

[Ladyinred]

The most honest, loving and affectionate mare I have ever owned tried to kill me several times in the first fortnight of ownership.. backing up and kicking and also rearing at me with mouth open and more than ready to attack. Maybe I should have had her PTS? No, I gave her time, was very careful who handled her and formed a strong bond with her. She was scared and attack was her only method of defence. Now I trust any child with her, she is so soft and gentle.

The only 'secret' was time and consistency, she has never been as much as shouted at, much less hit or chased with a whip. We never went in her stable with her for the first six months, we would open the door and stand with her headcollar until she came to us.. which took less and less time each day until she would wait for us rather than vice versa. She felt trapped and threatened if we went in with her.. and she had every reason to feel that way if you knew her past experiences. Today, we can pick up and take away her feed/hay if we want to and there is no aggression whatsoever; our farrier is more than happy to handle her alone and will even turn her out after he has finished.

OP, just build trust and your mare will come right.. if you suspect it is cyclical and hormonal then have her checked but she sounds like a mare who has learned this behaviour, possibly before you had her. There are many things I would try to cure it.. none involve shouting, hitting, whips, chasing, walking down or, god forbid, join-up. There is a lot of power in walking past a horse that turns its bum on you and walking up to another horse in the field, giving it a scratch and completely ignoring the bad behaviour; there is also a lot to be said for going frequently into the field making a fuss of her and then walking away, with or without a headcollar.

 

[Wagtail]

I may have got this wrong, but I don't think the OP sees her mare as a problem, and seems quite happy with the way things are. I read the post as her being interested in whether others would class her mare as dangerous. There have been some interesting views on this thread from both extremes and everything in between. A very interesting read.

Ladyinred, I think your mare was a completely different kettle of fish to some of the others described in this thread as her behaviour was based on fear and your approach to her was absolutely the right one. I don't think the OP has the same problem. It seems that her mare totally trusts her and is not fearful. Her behaviour is defiant rather than fear based. She doesn't want to come in and is prepared to kick if necessary anyone who approaches her with a head collar when she is in that frame of mind.

 

[Dunlin]

I asked for advice on this forum a year ago about the share horse I had. He was such a gent when ridden and stabled but in the field was a demon that was quite frankly out to kill me. At the time I did question it as rough play but it was quite apparent that he was really meaning it. He would charge at me, chase me, kick at me, bite me, rear up and pull really nasty faces. I ended up being scared of him and quit the share. Many people suggested it was my nerves which I can agree with but I was only nervous of him after a good few months of this behaviour when it just got worse and worse.

I tried lots of things and nothing seemed to work. Because it was a share I was not allowed to bring in a behaviourist (if that's the right word) despite me offering to pay for it. I have a few ideas on why this horse had a mean streak, he was in a field on his own (due to his behaviour), owner hardly ever spent time with him, yard staff were well aware of his behaviour so left him to his own devices and kept him at arms length. The poor horse was probably bored out of his skull and quite frankly fed up with his life. Treats were a big problem. I stopped them all but it was the only 'solution' for the rest of the staff and the owner. Because it was a share I was never going to sort it out, or even make a start.

Yes I would class that horse as dangerous in the field, he had the intention to kick my head in, not a threat but he really meant it and it was a miracle that I came out of it unscathed. I cannot class him as dangerous full stop because he wasn't. He would have been brilliant as a Riding School horse. If his owner just gave him the time and help he needed he would have been anyone's dream.

One of my own horses was ticklish and he would nip when being rugged up and groomed and turn around in constant circles, not fast and no danger to you but he just hated being tickled with a dandy brush or leg straps! That was his quirk, not dangerous but I made sure I told anyone and everyone that he would nip and turn circles when being rugged and groomed so make sure to cross tie him. Some people did call him dangerous but he wasn't, a nip because a horse is ticklish is very different to one spinning around and trying to kick your face off.

 

[TarrSteps]

Thank you for the sanest post on here so far.

That made me laugh.

Tbf, about half of what i do is talk to people about stuff like this so I should be fairly sane about it by now.

 

[Kittyk]

I have a horse like this. She can be vile to change rugs and saddle up, occasionally to catch. Ridden 95% of the time she is wonderful.

She is on full livery and the yard are under strict instructions on how to handle her. We don't change rugs daily, she is always tied up to do so and you never ever walk behind her, in case she is kicking out when you put a rug on etc and someone gets caught.

I have often come close to pts, but she doesn't kick at you, its more a threat (which isn't much better). I recently got an excellent animal behaviourist to work with her and she is much much better. We have her out every two weeks and this has been the best thing I ever did. To the point you can tack up without her lifting a leg but I will always be very careful handling her and I insist everyone is as well.

At the bottom of her behaviour was a lack of respect for myself and those handling her, so we went back to basics. I take full responsibility, even though she had had a rough time it is not an excuse for that behaviour. Consistancy is key and establishing yourself as herd leader.

 

[STRIKER]

I wouldnt class her as dangerous, i would class her a cow bag who needs a strong firm hand, not saying you are not doing that OP, but if it was mine in a case like you describe it would get a good whack with the lunge whip, but you say when she has had enough, are you pushing her past her limit and is she tired or bored. The same applies with the backing up and kicking, whack it so it feels it and knows you are the boss, the alpha mare who would discipline her with its teeth or hind legs, why kick out when putting rugs on does she have ulcers or is she hormonal.

 

[Pigeon]

The thing is, with a lot of animal behaviourists, they are saying that the dog/horse ect should view you as a member of their own species, and you should fit in the pecking order somehow. I don't think this is necessarily helpful... I am not a horse, I am a human, entirely different parameters and I don't want my horse to treat me as boss mare or anything that involves teeth, even in a friendly manner...

How do you react when she kicks you? I'd be establishing that even threatening faces is unacceptable. It sounds like her behaviour is dangerous but she doesn't sound innately vicious or incurable.

 

[Pigeon]

Hmmm, quirks or not, I don't think it is ever acceptable for a horse to kick or threaten to kick a human that was not causing them pain or abusing them. I would not put up with it. Obviously, if a horse is food protective then I would avoid fiddling with rugs etc whilst they were eating, but if that type of behaviour is ever shown to me then I stamp on it straight away.

I have to say I agree with this.

 

[TarrSteps]

The thing is, with a lot of animal behaviourists, they are saying that the dog/horse ect should view you as a member of their own species, and you should fit in the pecking order somehow. I don't think this is necessarily helpful... I am not a horse, I am a human, entirely different parameters and I don't want my horse to treat me as boss mare or anything that involves teeth, even in a friendly manner...

How do you react when she kicks you? I'd be establishing that even threatening faces is unacceptable. It sounds like her behaviour is dangerous but she doesn't sound innately vicious or incurable.

My understanding is they aren't saying the horse thinks you are a horse, they are saying the horse has no way to relate to you except as a horse. This is a fine distinction, to be sure, but quite an important one. It means that you have to at least start communication with the horse in a way it understands - a bit like using signs to communicate with someone who speaks another language. I think their point is the we, with our big brains and desire to have horses, expect horses to learn our language but we often can't be asked to learn theirs, even the service of making them do what we want.

Re how horses behave with each other, no-one threatens or puts teeth on.The Boss in a stable, well run herd, even in play, without invitation. Every horse understands this concept (re my easier point) if it's been decently raised by other horses. If it doesn't understand or we can't exploit it, that's a human failing.

 

[siennamum]

My gelding is another one who could be described as 'quirky'. I am an absolute stickler for manners as a rule, and quite old fashioned in my ways, but Coco is unable to accept 100% that any person is completely trustworthy or in charge.
I work around him. If you put him in the stable and then go back straightaway with a bridle or headcollar in your hands he will put his head in the corner of the stable and present you with his rather large bottom. There is no way it would help or be safe to go in there or pick up a stick, instead I have a few nuts to ensure we are presented with the right end.
In this way he has me well trained to give him nuts ALL the time.

 

[diamonddogs]

I absolutely wouldn't be chasing this horse round the field with a whip!

My mare had some borderline-dangerous quirks (eg charging out of the stable, trapping me against the partition, threatening to bite when being rugged) due to physical abuse before I got her, and if I'd have listened to people telling me to knock my mare about to "teach her who's boss", I'd have been, at best, in a wheelchair or worst, dead.

I addressed the worst aspects by spending an hour or so teaching "back" and "over" on day one (no, I didn't want to give her time to settle) and the rest by quiet, firm and consistently fair handling.

This mare sounds like a bright one, so shouldn't need many hours of patient groundwork to put her in her place. Like others have said, she doesn't sound dangerous to me, but displays dangerous behaviour, which needs sorting.

The best feeling in the world is when your yardmates tell you what a pleasure your horse is to be around, and well worth the effort it takes to achieve that.

 

[LaurenBay]

Thank you for all your feedback.

I don't actually class my Horse as dangerous, mainly because her behaviour is predictable. I know when going to bring in to keep my wits about me. She isn't nasty and isn't kicking because she is fearful or just doesn't like people. It's a stubborn thing, she is set in her ways and probably always will be.

I love her and owe her too much, I would never consider PTS (would be different if she was kicking randomly) but I respect your opinions.

I'm obviously not condoning her behaviour, I know it's not on.

I will try the suggestions posted.

 

[LaurenBay]

Diamonddogs she is extremely clever, just had to put leccy fencing up as she worked out how to open the field gates!

 

[Honey08]

My mare can show behaviour like OP's. Over the years we have come to an understanding, so to speak, I walk nearly up to her in the field, she comes over, if I get too near she turns and swishes at me, she has to allow herself to be caught rather than be caught. She also pulls faces in the stable, but is the easiest horse to handle that I have ever met if you ignore the faces. That said, we have a teenage groom at weekends and I would NEVER ask her to catch the horse, nor turn out my husband's big hunter that can be bouncy on the way to the field. I would simply not put the groom (or anyone else for that matter) n a position where they could experience bad behaviour that I can predict. If I'm not around, the groom just opens the stable doors and the horses walk out onto the winter hardcore turnout with haynets, then I or my husband turn them out, if need be, later on.

 

[Mike007]

It has long astounded me about the amateur horse world . How you all seem to think it is ok to casualy approach any un headcollared horse and do what you want. Quickest way to get hurt. Putting a headcollar on and tying the horse tells it that you are now in command , alpha horse. Mucking about with horses without headcollars is dangerous.It does not make the horse dangerous, only the handler.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I'm astounded by some of the responses. Kicking is never allowed. This isn't a situation of fluffykins having been abused, this is fluffykins running the show by being allowed to get away with bad behavoir. Spoiled. You can't paint the scene any way you wish but it is not accepted by me for any horse. For any kicking intent I imply the 3 second rule. It never gets to backing up towards me. And yet I don't have issues with catching any of my horses. 4 are strong opinionated mares. One is a facemaker. So by all means keep on with I never want fluffykins to know fear from me while she backs up and tries to nail you. If any of my girls tried to do that too each other they would be put staight back in line quickly and then it's done. They don't go out afraid of each other. They know where they stand in a herd that works.

Terri

 

[LadyGascoyne]

All horses are potentially dangerous.

Joking aside, they are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than us and their "socially acceptable" reactions and means of communication can get us killed. That is the point of training - to teach horses what is acceptable living in OUR world (which is, after all, our choice). Luckily most horses are compliant by nature so we aren't all dead but, as I'm fond of saying, "good behaviour is health insurance for horses" and letting a horse think that a potentially dangerous behaviour (which I would separate from a "dangerous horse") will likely end in tears. If I have a £ for every time someone got hurt by a horse and sang the blues because "he never actually connected before", or some variation, I'd be very rich. It's true that a horse that really wants to get you won't miss but if a horse is close then there is always the very good chance that either one of you will misjudge or that the horse thinks the option is there and will possibly upgrade the response if stressed/scared/annoyed enough one day.

Which is my long winded way of saying I don't think the OP's horse is "dangerous" per se, but I think she's displaying a dangerous behaviour. Personally, I'd want to at least try to change it, certainly before I'd act of people's recommendation to kill the horse!! And even with training, I'd try to be very careful with her (which is sounds like the OP is, tbf).

I have met a handful of horses I would class as dangerous (out of thousands and I probably meet a higher percentage of misbehaving horses than most people) because they acted in very unpredictable or "unhorsey" ways. It's impossible to train for behaviours and situations you can't predict or control and the chance of getting hurt by horses like that is almost inevitable.

That said, most of the "dangerous" horses I meet are in the wrong situation and/or something has gone very wrong with their management/training and/or they are in significant pain that has been ignored until they have to start screaming. Often a combination of factors. The only problem is that the root cause doesn't save you when it goes wrong, it only potentially allows you to change things so it doesn't go wrong.

This post could answer at least half of the behavioral questions on this forum. I think it's excellent advice OP.

I also whole-heartedly agree that "dangerous behavior" is not the same as a "dangerous horse." And I think that your point that "dangerous behavior" is unhorse-like behavior is right on the money.

Totally random, unpredictable responses or responses which are not in the horses own interests are the mark of a dangerous horse. Bad behavior IS dangerous and should not be left be but it does not make a "dangerous horse."

 

[LaurenBay]

I can't remember who posted this question. But in answer to it, when she has kicked out before (if I've had a whip) then I have smacked her with it, she kicks again, another smack. However this only makes things worse. I also will growl at her.

It is not a case of I have let fluffikins get away with it. I think that is very unfair to say. When I first got her 3 years ago she wasn't easy on the ground, I worked through all her issues one by one. I now get praised on her (even have been told she is the most well mannered Horse on the yard, several times)

I have handled young stock and stallions before so it's not a case of owner has no clue so lets her Horse run riot.

My mare is strong willed, and I'm hoping with time this behaviour will stop, it already is improving every summer.

I never dread going to see her, I still enjoy her and couldn't imagine my life without her, she isn't a top competition mare, but to me she is my Horse of a life time.

I will never trust her 100% in the field, but I know enough to keep myself safe. The other liveries are aware and only 2 of them will need to enter the field (their Horses share with mine) one of them is the Yard owner, the other is one of my best friends. Both know Ruby extremely well.

Ruby is happy to be the last one out, so luckily I am never really in the situation where someone has to get her in.

 

[littleshetland]

I'm astounded by some of the responses. Kicking is never allowed. This isn't a situation of fluffykins having been abused, this is fluffykins running the show by being allowed to get away with bad behavoir. Spoiled. You can't paint the scene any way you wish but it is not accepted by me for any horse. For any kicking intent I imply the 3 second rule. It never gets to backing up towards me. And yet I don't have issues with catching any of my horses. 4 are strong opinionated mares. One is a facemaker. So by all means keep on with I never want fluffykins to know fear from me while she backs up and tries to nail you. If any of my girls tried to do that too each other they would be put staight back in line quickly and then it's done. They don't go out afraid of each other. They know where they stand in a herd that works.

Terri

My Fluffkins certainly isn't running the show and she certainly isn't spoilt.
As we all know, all horses are different and exhibit different personality traits. Working within the generally accepted 'rules' of horsemanship, we adapt and implement our own rules for each individual horse. What works for one horse, may not work for another. Some misdemeanours you ignore, some you have to react to.
You say your horse pulls faces at you - some people would not accept that and take the horse to task about it interpreting that as a prelude to potentially dangerous behaviour. I expect you don't because you know YOUR horse and know that the horse will not follow through.
Its' not about being afraid of making 'Fluffikins' fearful, its about adapting the rules for each individual horse' within safe parameters.
For what its worth, I'm not adverse to giving a horse a punch up the bracket - if that's what required at that moment.

 

[Noodles_3]

I would do! kicking never bothered me until I met my friends mare! I'd helped with her from day dot, then she just turned! I was doing up her belly strap, she almost kicked me in the head, this wasn't her first attempt!

trying to get her going forward on the lunge, so kicked out at me! my friend was walking her out! a bird spooked her, she kicked her owner in the leg, left her laying on the floor and bolted home! she backs up at people in the field and kicks out! she recently bolted down the lane towards a car, the driver beeped at her and she backed up and kicked her owner in the ribs!

she's trashed a stable, kicked the back so much its hanging off, then the other day, bullied her field mate who backed up, knocked the same owner to the floor and they both trampled on her!

she is what I'd called Very Dangerous!

This isn't Annie is it hun?

 

[Urban Horse]

It has long astounded me about the amateur horse world . How you all seem to think it is ok to casualy approach any un headcollared horse and do what you want. Quickest way to get hurt. Putting a headcollar on and tying the horse tells it that you are now in command , alpha horse. Mucking about with horses without headcollars is dangerous.It does not make the horse dangerous, only the handler.

As a retired 'professional' I've witnessed numerous folk 'waterskiing' behind Shetlands and similar.... Headcollars don't put you in command, you handle any horse only with its permission and anyone who thinks otherwise fools only himself. A lot of 'horsey woes' are down purely to the increasing levels of restraint we think we need to control our mounts.

To control any horse you merely need to interact with a pound and a half of the animal... once that relationship is formed you can do anything with the horse, whether it is adorned with a collar, or just standing free. To quote Harry Whitney, "It's easier to direct a thought, than it is to drive a horse."

 

[windand rain]

I personally wouldn't class her as *dangerous* but I would class her as unruly, strong willed and without any apparent respect for anyone. I wouldn't stand for it and would be teaching her that the way she's behaving is uncalled for and not to be tolerated. I would firstly look at her management and her feeding regime to see what could be changed.

This I wouldnt describe her as dangerous either just rude and ill mannered and she can be fixed to me dangerous horses are those that are totally unpredictable and aggressive to the point of attacking you without fear of consequences, and being persistent with it.
She needs to be taught respect and to be aware of her surroundings at all times