Would you ignore advice from a saddle fitter ?

Asha

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To cut a long story short, I have a 5 year old , 6 in April. Who isn't the easiest to fit, being short coupled with low withers and big shoulders. He's a sensitive chap, who lets your know immediately if he isn't happy. We had a problem with a jumping saddle which didn't fit, which was fitted by a professional saddler! He showed us by looking cold backed. After spending an arm and a leg with vet work ups and X-rays etc etc, we couldn't find anything wrong. Changed his saddle, and hey presto no issues at all, no more cold backed.

So I have finally got my confidence to ride him. ( he's competed SJ by a local pro). Decided to just do some low level dressage tests. So borrowed a dressage saddle. I was nervous as it wasn't fitted by a saddler, but he goes really well, no issues with cold backed, just a chilled out chappie. So he likes it. For peace of mind I arranged for a saddle fitting, as the one we are using Is medium, and he is mw/wide in his close contact jumping saddle. I asked them to bring some other saddles in case it didn't fit.

Saddler reckons its too narrow, but if we increase the width on same style it will drop at the front.so we tried other styles. The one the saddler liked, looked lovely on him. But we got on him (pro first, I'm not daft ), then me. I didn't like it, felt tipped forward, plus he didn't like it, very tail swishy, running forward, and I felt like he wanted me off. His rider also agreed he didn't like it.

I'm going to get another company in for another opinion.

But just wondered what everyone else thought. Would you listen to your horse, and ignore the saddler. (Master saddler)?
 

TPO

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100% listen to your horse

The only clause on this statement would be that you (generic you) have to know what you are listening to/for.

In your case the post reads as though you know your horse well and you have the support & guidence of a (making an assumption here) experienced professional whom you trust.
 

JillA

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Horse every time. I have known some saddle fitters I wouldn't let within yards of my horse, without fully understanding how they could be so wrong, then I met a PROPER fitter last year. Her knowledge of anatomy is second to none, she has diagrams and photographs to illustrate the areas which must be cleared by the points or the tree or even the panel and after she adjusted my saddle I sat completely differently in it.
Check out the Saddle Fit 4 Life people (Jochen Schleese) if you want a taster of what difference a fit can make. Not that I suggest everyone buys one of their saddles but you could gen up and then cross examine your fitter to check their knowledge and expertise. http://www.saddlefit4life.com/about-the-saddlefit4life-system
Incidentally the fitter I mentioned is planning to do a brief lecture demo here this summer so anyone close enough would be welcome to come and learn
 

Asha

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100% listen to your horse

The only clause on this statement would be that you (generic you) have to know what you are listening to/for.

In your case the post reads as though you know your horse well and you have the support & guidence of a (making an assumption here) experienced professional whom you trust.

I agree with you. I totally trust his rider ( who backs and produces young sports horses, so has a good feel ) and even with her on him he was unsettled. When I got on, he felt twitchy and unhappy. Thanks
 

Asha

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Horse every time. I have known some saddle fitters I wouldn't let within yards of my horse, without fully understanding how they could be so wrong, then I met a PROPER fitter last year. Her knowledge of anatomy is second to none, she has diagrams and photographs to illustrate the areas which must be cleared by the points or the tree or even the panel and after she adjusted my saddle I sat completely differently in it.
Check out the Saddle Fit 4 Life people (Jochen Schleese) if you want a taster of what difference a fit can make. Not that I suggest everyone buys one of their saddles but you could gen up and then cross examine your fitter to check their knowledge and expertise. http://www.saddlefit4life.com/about-the-saddlefit4life-system
Incidentally the fitter I mentioned is planning to do a brief lecture demo here this summer so anyone close enough would be welcome to come and learn

I will check them out, thanks x
 

cremedemonthe

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I tell customers the best saddle fitter in the world, is the horse it's going on.
I have fitted saddles and they technically fit and fit well yet horse has gone ballistic in it for no apparent reason but it was reason enough not to use that saddle.
If you were using a jumping saddle and then went to dressage suggests to me that the forward cut of the jumping saddle's tree is a problem, on young horses around that age the Trapezius muscles become over developed due to being on the forehand, being croup high or both.
It's a pain as it can play havoc fitting the saddle but you need a saddle to get them going to learn to balance themselves up and bring their top line up and the traps will drop down.
The dressage tree being straight on the points of the tree rather than forward as in the jumping saddle possibly is avoiding the traps. That's one theory but it is very hard to say with out seeing the saddle on the horse and in action.
Go with your gut feeling, it's not often wrong, Oz (Saddler)
 

Wheels

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I agree to some extent that we should listen to our horses, a lot of us have been there and a seemingly well fitted saddle causes the horse to freak out but there are also times where they don't show discomfort but when having a physio or massage session it is found that the horse has some tightness or soreness, sometimes a build up of tightness that has been gradually getting worse over time. For this reason I wouldn't use a saddle that had been deemed too narrow.

I would however get a second opinion to see if another saddler agreed
 

ILuvCowparsely

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To cut a long story short, I have a 5 year old , 6 in April. Who isn't the easiest to fit, being short coupled with low withers and big shoulders. He's a sensitive chap, who lets your know immediately if he isn't happy. We had a problem with a jumping saddle which didn't fit, which was fitted by a professional saddler! He showed us by looking cold backed. After spending an arm and a leg with vet work ups and X-rays etc etc, we couldn't find anything wrong. Changed his saddle, and hey presto no issues at all, no more cold backed.

So I have finally got my confidence to ride him. ( he's competed SJ by a local pro). Decided to just do some low level dressage tests. So borrowed a dressage saddle. I was nervous as it wasn't fitted by a saddler, but he goes really well, no issues with cold backed, just a chilled out chappie. So he likes it. For peace of mind I arranged for a saddle fitting, as the one we are using Is medium, and he is mw/wide in his close contact jumping saddle. I asked them to bring some other saddles in case it didn't fit.

Saddler reckons its too narrow, but if we increase the width on same style it will drop at the front.so we tried other styles. The one the saddler liked, looked lovely on him. But we got on him (pro first, I'm not daft ), then me. I didn't like it, felt tipped forward, plus he didn't like it, very tail swishy, running forward, and I felt like he wanted me off. His rider also agreed he didn't like it.

I'm going to get another company in for another opinion.

But just wondered what everyone else thought. Would you listen to your horse, and ignore the saddler. (Master saddler)?


Some advise in the past from saddlers I have obeyed and regretted it as the advice was wrong.

So make sure you have a saddler from the master saddler website or you could be given the wrong advise.
 

Goldenstar

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A good saddler should be confident enough to say 'if the horse likes it, we will go with it'

Yes I agree with the proviso that at least one horse I knew was extremely difficult to ride in a saddle that allowed him full movement and the restriction of the too narrow saddle put him off his 'overtop expression '.
In that case we went with the courage of our convictions and rode him though it in the saddle that fitted .
However there's more to saddle fit than width and if you felt tipped forward OP I think it's likely the saddle was taking a dive forwards even it was doing it very subtly I have one horse were the numnah / pads used must exactly the ones he likes , this horse dislikes pushing upwards into things he perceives as hard but with his favorite numnah and his memoryfoam pad he's happy.
Saddle fitting is a difficult one as some horses are extremely tolerant of ill fitting tack and some make the princess and pea look easy going.
 

Asha

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I tell customers the best saddle fitter in the world, is the horse it's going on.
I have fitted saddles and they technically fit and fit well yet horse has gone ballistic in it for no apparent reason but it was reason enough not to use that saddle.
If you were using a jumping saddle and then went to dressage suggests to me that the forward cut of the jumping saddle's tree is a problem, on young horses around that age the Trapezius muscles become over developed due to being on the forehand, being croup high or both.
It's a pain as it can play havoc fitting the saddle but you need a saddle to get them going to learn to balance themselves up and bring their top line up and the traps will drop down.
The dressage tree being straight on the points of the tree rather than forward as in the jumping saddle possibly is avoiding the traps. That's one theory but it is very hard to say with out seeing the saddle on the horse and in action.
Go with your gut feeling, it's not often wrong, Oz (Saddler)

Don't suppose you come to cheshire do you? ��
 

Asha

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Yes I agree with the proviso that at least one horse I knew was extremely difficult to ride in a saddle that allowed him full movement and the restriction of the too narrow saddle put him off his 'overtop expression '.
In that case we went with the courage of our convictions and rode him though it in the saddle that fitted .
However there's more to saddle fit than width and if you felt tipped forward OP I think it's likely the saddle was taking a dive forwards even it was doing it very subtly I have one horse were the numnah / pads used must exactly the ones he likes , this horse dislikes pushing upwards into things he perceives as hard but with his favorite numnah and his memoryfoam pad he's happy.
Saddle fitting is a difficult one as some horses are extremely tolerant of ill fitting tack and some make the princess and pea look easy going.


My boy is definitely the princess and the pea.

He's short coupled and slightly croup high. I don't think he will even out as his dam is slightly croup high too. We did try him with a wide saddle (equipe + 2)and a pad underneath , as well as a Equipe +1 and he didn't like either. the one he likes is a medium Albion slk.
 

BeingKate

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Always listen to horse

however, you don't HAVE to have a dressage saddle to do a dressage test. If his GP fits and you are both comfortable, why bother? a dressage saddle is great if you want to specialise or work up through the levels as it'll give you a deeper seat, more freedom for horses shoulders, but as a dressage rider and trainer, you honestly don't NEED one :)
 

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I do a lot of remedial fits (inevitable when you specialise in tricky to fit wide, usually short backed horses) and it's not unusual to see horses object to a really well fitting saddle that enables them to move. The dressage saddle put pressure on a different part of the back to the old saddle so he went well for a while. Then, by the sound of it being a bit narrow, it starts to pinch at the bars and possibly rock, and eventually the horse CAN go numb. We have found that when a really stable, in balance saddle is put on the horse won't want to go properly, we have spoken to several bodyworkers about it and we think the horse experiences pins and needles as the feeling comes back. A sheepskin pad can help, but ultimately sometimes you have to ride the horse through it. We have had several cases where all has come good, sometimes within a few days, sometimes up to a month. Putting the horse back into the saddle they "prefer" only prolongs the problem.

Only you know whether you trust the judgement of the fitter. Where a too narrow saddle would then drop too much if widened you know the basic tree and/or panel onfiguration is wrong, frequently the tree is too curvy and the dropping at the front is actually a rocking action.
 

Asha

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Always listen to horse

however, you don't HAVE to have a dressage saddle to do a dressage test. If his GP fits and you are both comfortable, why bother? a dressage saddle is great if you want to specialise or work up through the levels as it'll give you a deeper seat, more freedom for horses shoulders, but as a dressage rider and trainer, you honestly don't NEED one :)

His other saddle is a close contact jumping saddle, and I don't like it. Plus he shares it with his sister, so we can't hack them out together. It's not comfy, but his rider likes it. I'm starting to think GP might be the answer.
 

Asha

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I do a lot of remedial fits (inevitable when you specialise in tricky to fit wide, usually short backed horses) and it's not unusual to see horses object to a really well fitting saddle that enables them to move. The dressage saddle put pressure on a different part of the back to the old saddle so he went well for a while. Then, by the sound of it being a bit narrow, it starts to pinch at the bars and possibly rock, and eventually the horse CAN go numb. We have found that when a really stable, in balance saddle is put on the horse won't want to go properly, we have spoken to several bodyworkers about it and we think the horse experiences pins and needles as the feeling comes back. A sheepskin pad can help, but ultimately sometimes you have to ride the horse through it. We have had several cases where all has come good, sometimes within a few days, sometimes up to a month. Putting the horse back into the saddle they "prefer" only prolongs the problem.

Only you know whether you trust the judgement of the fitter. Where a too narrow saddle would then drop too much if widened you know the basic tree and/or panel onfiguration is wrong, frequently the tree is too curvy and the dropping at the front is actually a rocking action.

The majority of the time he's ridden in his jumping saddle, he's only been in the borrowed dressage one, probably six times for a max of about 30mins, would that amount of time had an effect on his back already ? Thanks
 

Sukistokes2

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I would and have ignored a fitter.
I have also followed the advice of a fitter and ended up Causing damage to the back of my horse.
When I found the right fitter, who worked with me and my horse and LISTENED to us , then I gave him the respect he deserved. Since he retired I have never found another saddler who I trust.
You are the one riding, you are the one that knows your horse, so you will know if he is going correctly.
My horse hated a tight fit, he liked the saddle almost too wide, one saddler kept telling me that my saddle was too wide.....yes maybe for some, he fitted my horse too tight, bang, no canter lead on the right rein, a short and choppy stride at the front. When I pointed this out, the saddler, a man who had never ridden and certainly never ridden my horse told me that was how cobs went and that was that. He never got another call, cheeky sod! Got another chap out and the first thing he said was the horse needed a WIDER gullet! you pick and choose, find one that works and stick to them like glue..........or go treeless!!!
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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100% listen to your horse

The only clause on this statement would be that you (generic you) have to know what you are listening to/for.

In your case the post reads as though you know your horse well and you have the support & guidence of a (making an assumption here) experienced professional whom you trust.

^^^^ This. A "saddle fitter" came and plonked a saddle on my boy which she said "fitted OK". I climbed up, he prepared himself as if to bronc, she still maintained it "fitted".

I listened to my horse.........
 

alwaysbroke

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The horse every time and fortunately my saddle fitter agrees with me having seen the shapes he can pull when using a saddle that appears to fit perfectly. Then again said horse also has opinions on which saddle cloths he likes as well......
 

dreambigpony

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Listen to your horse, I had a similar problem last year where I was fitted a saddle that was always sliding about, my mare would buck and we found lumps along her back where it had been putting pressure on her! Got 2 other master saddlers out and they both agreed that I was sold a saddle far too long for my horse's back...I had a 16.5 inch and my mare can only take a 15 inch as she has such a short back! So pleased we have changed her saddle now, touch wood I have had no problems since.
 

cremedemonthe

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Don't suppose you come to cheshire do you? ��

lol, that's one hell of a call out!
No, very rarely if ever go saddle fitting now. Had 27 years of it and needed a change.
But friends have been known to kidnap me and get me to have a look at their saddles when they need an opinion.
I have a colleague up in Nantwich who I trained with,she had a saddlery shop there for a while. Whether she would still fit and flock up a saddle I don't know as she left the trade a while ago but will ask, Oz
 

Asha

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lol, that's one hell of a call out!
No, very rarely if ever go saddle fitting now. Had 27 years of it and needed a change.
But friends have been known to kidnap me and get me to have a look at their saddles when they need an opinion.
I have a colleague up in Nantwich who I trained with,she had a saddlery shop there for a while. Whether she would still fit and flock up a saddle I don't know as she left the trade a while ago but will ask, Oz

That's very kind of you, thanks. ( we live in Nantwich, so local to your friend !)
 

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For a fairly horsey area, Cheshire is hopeless for saddle fitters! I use Saddles Direct to get something that "will do" and current horse who is definitely staying has a flexible panel saddle fitted and adjusted by saddlers based right down South which is working out well.
 

Polar Bear9

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Listen to the horse. Saddlers are not all great nor are they infallible, horses are not always predictable or like what we think try will.

I remember some people on our yard buying a new pony, it was a very funny shape so they had a saddle made to measure. The girl didn't want to ride straight away and they didn't know how to lunge so I lunged it for them with tack. The saddle was coming a good half a foot off the back in trot and the pony was clearly not happy, put in a few little bucks etc. Told the lady the saddle didn't fit, she told me I was an idiot and it was hand made to measure. Surprise suprise a month later pony has very sore back and the saddle doesn't fit
 

coloredred

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Definitely listen to the horse. I had a saddler fit a dressage saddle to my cob, she sold me a medium when he'd always been a medium wide. He got more and more tense so called her back out, still said it fit and gave me two gel pads to try at the same time, at this point he starts rearing when ridden. Second opinion I'd he's an extra wide at least! Fires saddler will never come near him or any horse I know again.
 

sbloom

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The majority of the time he's ridden in his jumping saddle, he's only been in the borrowed dressage one, probably six times for a max of about 30mins, would that amount of time had an effect on his back already ? Thanks

Probably not, no. It's very hard for a fitter to comment when they haven't been involved, but I can only state what I find occasionally. Mostly you are looking for the horse to like the fit and go well, but shifting pressure to an area previously unaffected can make a horse go really well temporarily. There are classic cases where a horse loves a new saddle, goes really well for a few weeks or even months, the saddle may be adjusted somewhat successfully, or totally unsuccessfully, but the horse ends up sore pretty quickly and needs yet another new saddle. We try to use our judgement to avouid this scenario and find a balance where we are following the overall guidelines fora technically correct fit but also keeping the horse happy, but equally not causing more problems by doing that. Saddle fitting is not A-B-C sadly.

Seeing the old saddle on the horse may help, but if you don't know the shape of the tree you can only guess. I find a lot of horses have got pinned in by too upright bars in the middle of the saddle, you put on a wider gullet with more appropriately shaped (usually flatter) bars and the horse may not know where to put itself for a while, while it figures out how to move and how to deal with possible pins and needles. A horse going well in a saddle that is unstable will nearly always be sore when you put on a stable saddle as it will be putting pressure (low entirely appropriate pressure) on areas that have been "knocked about" by the moving saddle, so even if you don't think they're sore, they almost always will be in a saddle that is moving about.
 
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