Would you praise or tell off in this circumstance?

[Honey08]

The dogs wander around the yard and field when I'm doing the stables. Yellow lab is very agile and had a habit of popping over fences and wandering off, so I have been doing some whistle training with him - giving treat when he returns. Its been working well and he has been a lot better lately.

Today he wandered out into the field the minute we got there, ten minutes later I couldn't see him. I whistled and whistled for five minutes, then finally spotted him four fields away up near our new neighbours (who have a dog). He finally heard the whistle and slunk back. He knew he was in trouble and went straight into the "naughty stable" he gets sent to when he has wandered.

In this situation would you have given a treat? He did come back eventually when he heard the whistle, but he knew he shouldn't have been out of our field/the yard.

 

[Spudlet]

I would have told him what a hideous little grotbag he was in my happiest voice while giving tickles, then popped his lead on in an unemotional fashion, and kicked myself hard for taking my eye off him in the first place. No treat as these are reserved for top recalls only. However, he slunk back to appease you as he would have been able to read your anger - but he would not have known why you were cross, that jump of reasoning is too much for a dog. So had you shouted etc, that would have been associated with his return, not his leaving.

You might find Pippa Mattinson's book on recall useful reading as it includes remedial advice for the delinquent dog. She did the training programmes for the Gundog Club, so a lab should take well to her ideas.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Henry has occasionally got distracted at the yard and disappeared with a bestest mate across the fields. When he remembered that he should have stayed around the yard, he's come back looking very guilty even though he doesn't get punished, he seems to understand he's peed me off and accepts time out in the stable or crate as a fair cop.

He rarely does it now, he's growing up and understanding the rules a bit more.
I actually think dogs are astute enough to know when they've stepped over the mark as long as they know what the rules are.

So short answer - no to the treat.

 

[LBF]

I wouldn't treat for coming back, but perhaps once he was back do some sit/downs etc then treat for that or let him get a little away from you and whistle & treat when he comes, like you say he still came back.. even if it was eventually!

I recently saw a lady on the downs screaming at her dog to get back to her, there was no way it was going to as she sounded like she wanted to give it a beating when it got there!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Never reprimand for coming back, however late they are and even if you feel like kicking them into next week (that's a joke by the way!!), it's hard!!!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Never reprimand for coming back, however late they are and even if you feel like kicking them into next week (that's a joke by the way!!), it's hard!!!

Agree. Not dogs or horses. Only husbands.

 

[Honey08]

Thanks all. He didn't get a treat, and he put himself in the naughty stable for five minutes. Next time I will do another recall with the whistle and give him a treat five or ten mins later perhaps.

I will have a look at that book. He is a bit of a delinquent. His heart is in the right place, but he does get distracted if there is a chance of someone new to play with.

Perhaps he should go to dog agility or something, where he can play and run, but has to learn strict rules. We live out in the sticks, with our land right outside our door, so they don't do as much lead work or socialising as the average dog. They're fine when we go to Badminton or Burghley etc on leads, but get a bit over excited when people come past our house/land with dogs.

 

[Honey08]

Agree. Not dogs or horses. Only husbands.

Love it!

 

[Spudlet]

Henry has occasionally got distracted at the yard and disappeared with a bestest mate across the fields. When he remembered that he should have stayed around the yard, he's come back looking very guilty even though he doesn't get punished, he seems to understand he's peed me off and accepts time out in the stable or crate as a fair cop.

He rarely does it now, he's growing up and understanding the rules a bit more.
I actually think dogs are astute enough to know when they've stepped over the mark as long as they know what the rules are.

So short answer - no to the treat.

Dogs do not do guilt. They do appeasing. They do 'I can tell you are annoyed, so I will try to stop you being annoyed by behaving in a certain way'. Which is then interpreted as 'He knows he did wrong, look at him!', when actually all it means is 'I know you are cross!'. Some of the dogs on dog shaming are showing appeasing body language... you can also find plenty of examples on YouTube of videos where the owner is going along the lines of 'WHO ate the house? I know it was you' and pointing at the dog which they think looks 'guilty', when actually they're just making it uncomfortable through their behaviour. If the owner habitually came in and said 'Wow, the house is destroyed!' in a happy voice, their dog would be all over them, but not because it was proud of its handiwork - just because coming home would have been made fun, as opposed to something to fear. The destroyed house is irrelevant as far as the dog is concerned at that point, it's all about the person. Same with recall - what precedes the return is neither here nor there to the dog, it's all about the last thing they did, which was coming back to you, not running away from you.

As for accepting time out, or whatever - why would they not? They are sent away from the scary, angry person (and that doesn't have to mean yelling, some dogs will crumble if their owner looks at them oddly - just terse voice and body language may be enough) and rewarded when they come out again by happy people, are they not? Again, the whys and wherefores are neither here nor there to the dog, it's all about results and outcomes.

You can punish certain things, but punishing a bad recall when they do get back is a fool's errand I'm afraid!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Spudlet, I have a Native American friend who says 'there is no word for guilt in my language'

 

[Spudlet]

Spudlet, I have a Native American friend who says 'there is no word for guilt in my language'

 

[PolarSkye]

Spudlet, I have a Native American friend who says 'there is no word for guilt in my language'

Oh I love that.

P

 

[Cedars]

This is possibly a remarkably stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway!

So if you praise every time your dog comes back, even if they were not meant to have run off in the first place... how do I then teach him not to leave the yard? And are we not then just teaching him that wandering is acceptable so long as he comes back?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nope, dogs don't think like that, they live in the 'now'. You're applying human logic and thought processes to the dog.

The best way to keep a dog in a yard is physically, the second is to teach it that being with you is the best place to be.

If you are not there and supervising the dog and there is no way to keep it in physically, there is no way you can teach it not to leave the yard. That's not the dog's fault.

 

[Spudlet]

Nope, dogs don't think like that, they live in the 'now'. You're applying human logic and thought processes to the dog.

The best way to keep a dog in a yard is physically, the second is to teach it that being with you is the best place to be.

If you are not there and supervising the dog and there is no way to keep it in physically, there is no way you can teach it not to leave the yard. That's not the dog's fault.

Yep.

Dogs will do, at any given time, whatever happens to be best for them at that time. So if given a choice between a. wandering off after rabbit smells, fox poo and decomposing birds in a field, or b. sitting around on a boring yard while you, their owner, ignore them because you're busy doing other stuff, it's always going to be option a. Unless you have taught them that option b. is a good one because you will reward them - but you have to work up to that, and in the process the best thing to do is to make sure they can't wander off, because if they realise wandering can bring rewards they'll be all the more interested in doing it.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Dogs do not do guilt. They do appeasing. They do 'I can tell you are annoyed, so I will try to stop you being annoyed by behaving in a certain way'.

Agree with this. In fairness I didn't say my dog felt guilty, the dear boy wouldn't know guilt if it hit him in the face. He does a good line in looking guilty.

However, he slunk back to appease you as he would have been able to read your anger - but he would not have known why you were cross, that jump of reasoning is too much for a dog. So had you shouted etc, that would have been associated with his return, not his leaving.

This, I very much disagree with. Why would my first realisation that one of my dogs has misbehaved when I notice they look guilty ? Sometimes I need to work out what they've done after I see the sad, pathetic face.

I should add, they don't live in fear of punishment, don't have shouty or sadistic tendencies.
If my dog has broken the rules, surely he knows that, and for them the subsequent prospect of the withdrawal of my attention or company is something they hate most. (Food excepted.)

 

[Spudlet]

Punishment doesn't have to mean shouting, hitting, or anything like that. Withdrawal of attention is also a form of punishment - negative punishment, which basically means taking something away to try and lower the likelihood of a dog doing a thing. Positive punishment is when you add something to the mix to try and lower the chance of a behaviour being repeated - so a sharp voice used to pull a dog up as it runs in, for example.

Most people will have some element of 'punishment' in their training. I do in mine. It's not abusive, it is all about how and when it is applied and what form it takes. I should probably have used a different word as the word punishment can be emotive.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Agree Spudlet.
The point I don't agree with is that a dog does not know why it is being punished on his return.

Once an adult dog learns from experience what the boundaries of behaviour are, he knows that his action may have consequences and understands why he is being reprimanded/ignored/put away.

When he comes back before the owner gives a visual/auditory clue, he is anticipating the reaction and has made the connection from a previous learnt response.

 

[Superhot]

If a did returns after being called and he is immediately punished, then why would he bother to return next time? I think you always have to make yourself far more interesting than anything else going on, that being with you is the best and only thing your dog should want to do. Sounds great but isn't always possible, so I guess you need a plan b. If you can't keep your dog motivated/stimulated all the time because you're busy doing other things, then you probably need some sort of confinement for your dog during these periods, as much for the dogs safety as for your peace of mind.
Agility,RallyO, Canicross, Flyball etc could all be great activities for you and your dog, but I'm not sure it will help with the mundane areas of life...

 

[LBF]

Try a treat/toy lottery, take high & low value treats like carrot, kibble, chicken, (I understand for labs that every food is high value )
and the same with toys, stop every now and again to throw the toy or drop a treat so that he wants to be with you all the time.

If you want him to settle & not follow you but still not to leave the yard then maybe invest some kongs, I find that blending fruit & veg together with some water makes a long lasting low calorie treat and will keep him occupied

 

[Jools2345]

This is possibly a remarkably stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway!

So if you praise every time your dog comes back, even if they were not meant to have run off in the first place... how do I then teach him not to leave the yard? And are we not then just teaching him that wandering is acceptable so long as he comes back?

you have to catch him off the yard, eg my lurcher kept going upstairs she is not allowed upstairs, i waited till i heard her going up when she thought i was out then surprised her when she was upstairs, told her off and carried her down-she has not gone upstairs again cos it is not a nice place to be.
there would have been no point in telling her off when she came down as i would be penalising her for coming down NOT for going up.

make the yard the best most interesting place to be and keep her secure when you cannot watch her

 

[Echo24]

I would praise as he came back to you, but no treats as you had to go find him.

No matter how close you are to telling a dog off for not coming back to you, the minute they clock you and come charging up to you when you're only 2 feet away I would still praise as you need to reward the fact he came back to you.

Personally I don't like letting my dog wander off out of sight at the yard. I either have my dog on the lead or if it's quiet and I'm refilling haynets or mucking out, he can potter around but he generally stays next to me, which I prefer. A dog that's confident enough to walk off out of sight and explore on his own is unlikely to feel the need to come back to you.

 

[Honey08]

Most of the time he does stay on the yard when I'm doing jobs, I chuck sticks or balls to keep him occupied. The other dog never leaves the yard. There is a four foot fence around the yard and land, 90% of the time he is ok, just when he does get distracted he is so agile and pops over anything without effort! If he is on the wrong side of the road and he sees me I don't have to say anything - he pops back quickly - he does know that is outside his permitted area. Life is just one never ending game to him. It just worries me when he goes into the next field - we are in sheep country... He wouldn't chase, he is more likely to go down to the river and swim (typical lab), but obviously the farmers wouldn't risk that.

We are getting there with the whistle and biscuit system - this is the first time in ages he has gone. When I found him he was over by our neighbours, who have another playful lab like himself...

 

[Clodagh]

Our lab who is normally very good can't help herself if I have mucked out the chickens and has to go and clear up the mess on the bonfire. This means she goes deaf. If you catch her at it, the bonfire is very close to the garden, she bolts back to the house, gets in it if she can and hides until she thinks you have forgiven her.
If she has been left in the house she goes upstairs to sleep on one of the boys beds, when you get home if it wasn't for the black fur everywhere you can tell by her face she has done something, so I think she does know the difference as we are quite normal with her, as we don't know she has committed a 'crime'.

 

[_jac_]

Keep up the good work, you will see results

One thing I do is not repeat whistles. They get 3 pips for recall, if they ignored that I march on out, give them an "oi" then sit them up, walk away and recall. Then big big praise

Repeating the whistle only teaches it is ok to ignore.

Also, I would be using it for all the good things in life, coming for food, treats dinner etc to really make it a wonderful thing to hear

To add that if they are engrossed in something and I know there is a fair chance it would not be listened to I would get attention first, then use recall whistle. Set up to succeed

 

[Honey08]

Thanks.

He has been great since that one blip last week, so hopefully it will carry on!

 

[babs2507]

I have a 1 year old pup, he has been off a lead and coming abck to me since he was 12 weeks, he has been very good although he is still very excitable if he sees another dog and will go to the other side of the beach if he was allowed. If he does have a wander and I call if I say "what have you been donig?" He automatically bows his head like he has been naughty but still wags his tail knowing that he was good to come back. Not sure how he has learnt this but he knows when he has done right or wrong.