Would You Say This Was Cruelty?

[Sooty]

It is a tough question. Yes, to me it is cruel, because dogs are pack animals. Any dog, deprived of stimulation and a natural situation, will probably develop over time into a fairly ferocious beast. But it is very easy to judge cultural differences in animal treatment from a Western perspective. The majority of our dogs, cats, horses etc are essentially pets. Even guard dogs are generally there to warn of approaching strangers, not to defend against wild animals. It is a bit like the work the Brooke does to educate the people who overload their donkeys and work them to death that if they load them less, they will last a lot longer! I suppose if you treat a dog in the way you describe over enough generations you will be able to develop the traits you desire, in much the same way that Huskies have been bred to run in sub-zero temperatures for hours at a time, but psychologically it seems extremely harsh. But if you are a Turkish goat farmer it probably seems perfectly acceptable. It has a ring of Sparta about it to me!

 

[Breezesbenefactor]

That person will be beaten daily with stick in the next life

 

[claire1976]

I think we have to be careful not to inflict our western beliefs when keeping working dogs. Many dogs that are bred for a working life are not kept the same way as we pet owners would keep them. Its also worth bearing in mind that many working dogs kept as pets suffer behavioural problems as a result of them not being given a job to do.
I am not saying the dog in question being subjected to cruelty or not.
The black masked Karabash and Akbash were bred for similar reasons and their traits are strong whether they are kept for work or for pets.

 

[milor]

irrespective of whether a dog is kept as a pet or as a working animal it is unnatural for it to live a solitary existence. As previously mentioned, dogs have evolved very many ways of communicating with each other as well as a being 'hard wired' to live as part of a pack - the original question was- was it cruel for a 6 week old puppy to live on its own in a field ? - the answer is a most emphatic YES - and not just for a puppy - it is unnatural and cruel to leave any dog on it's own without any form of social contact...across all cultures wherever dogs are found they will always chose to live with others - look at the packs of feral dogs found in most poor regions of the world or indeed at the packs of wild dogs in Africa - observe how vital communication and socialisation is to them as a species.

It may be traditional to keep Akbash this way but that does not make the practice any less unnatural or cruel.

 

[claire1976]

Milor -I agree that dogs live a more enjoyable life as a pack. I wasn't for a minute suggesting that leaving the pup at 6 wks was the right thing to do. I was simply explaining that these dogs were bred for this independent life, whether or not we agree with that - they are independent by nature. They do, however, thrive on human companionship and make very loyal family members.
I have witnessed these dogs as a pack in Turkey and the Kangal dogs here in the UK, they are not always happier in a large pack - I have seen them inflict serious injuries on each other.They are also by nature watchful of other dogs and may on its own territory react aggressively to intruding dogs.

 

[damitjanit]

No,
Why do we feel as a race(humane) that we know what is right or wrong ??
We "own" dogs coz we can but what give us the right to know whats the best life for themn??
I dont see that this is cruel in any way at all!

 

[WelshRareBit]

Cruel is a very emotive word.

I think in todays world I think the word is bandied about a little too much. I would rather see a well looked after, fit healthy akbash on his own doing his job, than see a pack of scrawny underfed,malnourished dogs.

At the end of the day the way we keep our animals is very subjective. While one may have a guard dog that lives outside all day (and some think it cruel) the person who owns the guard dog might look upon those who keep dogs cooped up indoors all the time as cruel.

I think we can simply be happy to see a dog happy and healthy and when we look for cruelty perhaps we should look a bit closer to home, instead of turning our eyes upon practises that are different from our own.

Hope that makes sense - and in closing, no its not cruel.

 

[milor]

wow ...am I hearing this right ? - you actually believe that leaving a 6 week old puppy alone in a field all day is NOT cruel ?


I tell you what ...sometimes I truly despair.....

 

[Tinkerbee]

Just because someone doesnt keep their animals in the same way as you doesnt mean its cruel

The dog has all its needs met, and is not suffering, can leave the field if its unhappy but doesnt because its been bred and trained that way.

 

[milor]

"The dog has all its needs met,"

..I would say that depriving a pack animal of any kind of social interaction was most obviously NOT meeting it's needs.

 

[Tinkerbee]

Yes, but if thats the way its been born and bred...

animals are more adaptable than we think

Horses are herd animals, but my neighbours had a horse that was on its own for years, and when i got my pony we turned them out together, but it didnt like it, prefered its own company and kept jumping out

who knows! crazy hoss

 

[claire1976]

Interestingly enough - I found this info on an Akbash website:
*They bond to the animal they are raised with - in the case of a working Akbash this is the livestock.
*They are independent, self-thinking dogs that have no genetic memory of looking towards man for direction.

 

[WelshRareBit]

Milor, the point is the fact that the dog has evolved to live without other dogs happily enough, and it obviously has the livestock as companionship.

Horses werent born to wear tack and carry a man, the point is they have evolved to accept it, in their way, so is that too cruel - because they arent living as nature intended?

The fact of the matter is its NOT cruelty - for gods sake if you want to see cruelty go look at a few of the webistes showing people skinning dogs alive, or fighting bears with tigers in a cage, then you will turn to the solitary living askbash and think its life is positively rosy.

And dont say dogs cant find companionship from livestock, because horses seem to bond well enough with sheep or goats in a lot of cases - which isnt natural for them either i should imagine...

Plus Ive seen many a dog that wouldnt tolerate living with another and they would just fight all the time - whats the point in that? Forcing animals to live together because its fits with YOUR idea of whats cruel or not...

 

[Sooty]

Like everything in life, cruelty has differing degrees. Just because one act is cruel doesn't mean a less cruel act is still not cruel! Emotional deprivation is as damaging as physical deprivation. This is the 21st century, it is a shame thinking hasn't moved on. Yes, man has adapted all sorts of animals for his own needs, but most people try and keep domesticated animals in a manner which benefits them psychologically. How would you react if it was a horse taken from its mother at six weeks and placed in a field on its own for the rest of its life? Would you think that was acceptable if it was what a certain civilisation had always done? The key to animal welfare is in education.

 

[claire1976]

But this dog isn't being placed in a field on its own. It has the livestock there with it. This is how these dogs are raised all the time in native Turkey, I'm not saying this is right or wrong but it's proven that they adapt well to this. These dogs are worshipped in Turkey and the similar Kangal dog is even featured on the national stamp. Their owners expect them to work from a young age but they are extremely well cared for - they have to be because their livelihood depends on it.
From what I understand, this dog has the freedom to come and go as it pleases. If it wishes to seek out canine/human companionship it clearly could. I don't think there is an issue of cruelty per se here. I think it's not particulalry ideal for the dog but just because our western beliefs are so strong doesn't mean that this dog won't cope perfectly well in this situation.

 

[Sooty]

That is not what was in the OP. Anyway, surely no owner would expect a six week old pup to guard livestock, so presumably there is an adult dog in the field too. The OP clearly implied that the dog was alone with no other interaction or stimulation. If there is livestock and another dog then there obviously there would be no problem.

 

[claire1976]

Further down the posts it does say that there are often other dogs in the field at the same time. I presume then that this dog is learning from the older dogs. I assumed, given its role, that livestock is in the vicinity, although I don't actually know that for sure.

 

[Sooty]

That'll teach me to jump to conclusions! In the OP it talks about human interaction, it doesn't mention other dogs. Dogs don't need humans; they need food, water, exercise and squeaky toys!

 

[nona1]

They guard the livestock because as far as they are concerned, the livestock is their pack. Sounds like a pretty good life to me.

If they didn't think this way and were such good hunting/killing dogs who find their own food, they'd soon be munching their way through lots of nice tasty lambs, wouldn't they.

 

[milor]

animals are more adaptable than we think


they 'adapt' because they have no choice ....you could equally argue that battery hens 'adapt' to their appalling conditions because they have been 'born and bred ' to it ...this does NOT mean that battery farming however is ok !.

It is 'traditional' in many areas of the middle east to work horses and donkeys until close to death then dump them in the deserts to die - it is 'traditional in Korea to torture and kill dogs for the meat market - and traditional in China to 'milk' bears for their bile.


Just because we can treat animals in certain ways does not mean that we should ...and whilst I accept that there are differing opinions on what cruelty means some things are self evident.


leaving a 6 week old puppy alone in a field ( which was the wording of the original post) is self evidently CRUEL.

 

[WelshRareBit]

Perhaps it was the wording of the original post but since other things have come to light - so what do you say now?

 

[AmyMay]

Cruel.

Dog's are pack animals, and crave social interaction.

 

[WelshRareBit]

But do they only need social interaction with other dogs?

They have company in the form of livestock.

If they need to be around other dogs only, then why is human interaction even considered neccassary? And if its not only canine companionship they need then surely the livestock acts as companion and therefore they are not kept alone and therefor its not cruel..?!

 

[AmyMay]

I'm sorry - I simply don't agree. I can't understand why this is even a debate? Or people think that to keep an animal like this would be acceptable.

 

[WelshRareBit]

Amymay - if the dog was completely alone I would agree its a bit cruel.

But he's/she is not. Who decides what company is best for a dog? After all in the wild they wouldnt have the company of man nor livestock - so if were debating about what comes naturally to a dog its neither, and the only thing that is natural is being in a pack of dogs.

But just the way a dog bonds to a human - a dog could bond to the livestock it lives with.

Amymay what part exactly are you saying is cruel?

 

[Tia]

Okay I let this run just to see how you all perceive this practise. Interesting points of views and although I understand why some have said what they have said, I think this is only because they don't understand these dogs. They are nothing like other dogs....I can see the huge differences in my little puppy already compared to all the other puppies I've owned. These dogs have genuine "love" for everything that is under their wing. Honestly you have to see it to believe it. They make no distinction between whether it is human, dog or any other animal. Their companions are their livestock OR people OR other dogs....whatever you choose to put them with. And they will guard these beings with their lives. They don't choose to be with humans over other animals; they are very independent and they spend time with whichever "animal" under their care...no favouritism shown to any species.

The dog makes the choice as to who it wishes to be with - not the human! A bizarre concept to some humans, but there you go!

 

[claire1976]

Thanks for that Tia- I think its true that many ppl don't understand this breed and this was the point I was trying to get across. I only have experience of Kangal dogs which are very similar in temprement and were bred with the same characteristics.

 

[WelshRareBit]

I think its a common human misconception that we are the be-all and end all of everything and that of course, the only animal a dog can take companionship from is a human or another dog....