Madam_max
Well-Known Member
Do you know if they asked for individual turnout or not? Otherwise this is all speculation.
Would you sue?
- Thread starter flyingfeet
- Start date
AmyMay
Situation normal
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The problem is 'some' livery yards bung horses together without thinking - so is that lack of thought a 'lack of care' and therefore negligence?
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That would happen at previous yard with new horses - quite breathtaking that there was never any serious damage!!
But you still havent' told us what the turnout arrangements for this new horse were.....
The problem is 'some' livery yards bung horses together without thinking - so is that lack of thought a 'lack of care' and therefore negligence?
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That would happen at previous yard with new horses - quite breathtaking that there was never any serious damage!!
But you still havent' told us what the turnout arrangements for this new horse were.....
mad_egg
Well-Known Member
I agree with everyone who has said that this was not the fault of the livery yard, just a dreadful accident.
Llwyncwn
Well-Known Member
I have a policy of matching horses who get turned out together. This is not always easy. I have the 'old gits' with the very quiet horses etc.
We have one up-start on the yard (CBx) who likes to think he's Mike Tyson. He will pick on the vulnerable - therefore he goes out with the 'big lads in long trousers' who wont take any sh*t.
Mares and geldings are separated.
This works well, but there are occasional face pulling sessions between horses who have always been friends.
I dont give individual turnout - havnt got the room. In certain circumstances I can understand the need, however, most horses need to be horses, to graze together, groom each other, race around and have a buck and fart together. This is normal herd behaviour.
We have one up-start on the yard (CBx) who likes to think he's Mike Tyson. He will pick on the vulnerable - therefore he goes out with the 'big lads in long trousers' who wont take any sh*t.
Mares and geldings are separated.
This works well, but there are occasional face pulling sessions between horses who have always been friends.
I dont give individual turnout - havnt got the room. In certain circumstances I can understand the need, however, most horses need to be horses, to graze together, groom each other, race around and have a buck and fart together. This is normal herd behaviour.
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Guest
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Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
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TBH, I do not know what you are getting at with this post
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No, walking circle's on hard ground isn't particularly natural but if it is the only exercise which can be offered then it is better than none - I use walkers additionally to turn out and find that horses quite like it actually. Also if you go down the not natural line, then you shouldn't really be riding your horse at all should you?
Fogive me if i'm wrong but i seem to remember that your horse is stabled for at least some f the time, and when horses are stabled, it is only wise to make sure they have a clean and deep bed, whether you do it your self or pay for someone else to do it.
My horses do not live a natural life in so far as they do not roam around all year, on vast amounts of land, in a herd, re-producing naturally............. neither does yours though
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How do you give your horse a chance to 'be a horse' and how does he act differently??
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
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TBH, I do not know what you are getting at with this post
No, walking circle's on hard ground isn't particularly natural but if it is the only exercise which can be offered then it is better than none - I use walkers additionally to turn out and find that horses quite like it actually. Also if you go down the not natural line, then you shouldn't really be riding your horse at all should you?
Fogive me if i'm wrong but i seem to remember that your horse is stabled for at least some f the time, and when horses are stabled, it is only wise to make sure they have a clean and deep bed, whether you do it your self or pay for someone else to do it.
My horses do not live a natural life in so far as they do not roam around all year, on vast amounts of land, in a herd, re-producing naturally............. neither does yours though
How do you give your horse a chance to 'be a horse' and how does he act differently??
Weezy
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with you jem. My horse loves the walker - and it is rubber floored, no walking on hard concrete
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
I have to say that I agree that this just sounds like a terrible accident - I once turned out a new horse (my own) with a quiet mare (also my own) before introducing him to the others - my normally placid mare kicked the living c*** out of him for no apparent reason! No lasting damage was done fortunately but no matter what precautions are taken accidents can happen.
I think it's a bit extreme to accuse the yard owners of 'killing' the unfortunate animal in question.
I think it's a bit extreme to accuse the yard owners of 'killing' the unfortunate animal in question.
Madam_max
Well-Known Member
I agree, Corroy needed the vet the first day she was turned out. Precautions were taken, she was put in the 'fat field', which was a fenced off area in the corner of the mares. However, she took it upon herself to introduce herself by jumping out. Resulting is 7 stitches. Should I have sued as the fencing wasn't adequate?
AmyMay
Situation normal
Do we need sarcasm MM?????
This is a very intersting post
This is a very intersting post
Madam_max
Well-Known Member
Me????
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Nope, if your horse goes through fencing, or over it, then it is your responsibility - if you had worries about the fencing then you should not have turned the horse out in the first place.
Thats my view on that one anyway
Thats my view on that one anyway
Madam_max
Well-Known Member
:grin. TBH, I tell people not to turn her out with anyone without letting me know as she is a bit handy with her back legs, especially with little show ponies
I worry more for their safety.
I worry more for their safety.
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Guest
But what if they then moved your horse to a new field so you hadn't been able to check the fencing?
Heather40
Active Member
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I do think Heather your situation is a little different to this one (potentially anyway). We had a lovely mare that's leg was broken a couple of years ago in the field at my previous yard - no ones fault, just one of those things. The group were very established, and no particularly aggressive horses in the field. So yes tragic accidents do happen.
But it will be interesting to hear what the turn out arrangements were for this horse ultimately.
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Yes, I agree with you there, potentially it was a little different in the way that it was me who turned all the horses there out into the fields.
The main object here is the contract and did the yard owner break the contract. Unless somebody saw the accident happen also, how can it be proved the other horse did do it? Might the horse have been kicking up his heels and just slipped?
I feel so sorry for them but sueing the yard owner will not bring the horse back and would take a long time.
I do think Heather your situation is a little different to this one (potentially anyway). We had a lovely mare that's leg was broken a couple of years ago in the field at my previous yard - no ones fault, just one of those things. The group were very established, and no particularly aggressive horses in the field. So yes tragic accidents do happen.
But it will be interesting to hear what the turn out arrangements were for this horse ultimately.
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Yes, I agree with you there, potentially it was a little different in the way that it was me who turned all the horses there out into the fields.
The main object here is the contract and did the yard owner break the contract. Unless somebody saw the accident happen also, how can it be proved the other horse did do it? Might the horse have been kicking up his heels and just slipped?
I feel so sorry for them but sueing the yard owner will not bring the horse back and would take a long time.
Madam_max
Well-Known Member
Oh yes, forgot to add I didn't put her there.
clipclop
Well-Known Member
No.
I hate this blame culture.
Horses are horses. It is just as possible for a horse on his own to break a leg whilst having a crazy moment.
Other times you can see the biggest horse scrap ever and not one horse has so much as a graze.
I am sure yard owner is mortified by what has happened.
All sueing will do is bump up the premiums which in turn will bump up Livery charges.
Eventually no one will have to go through this ever again as no one will have anywhere to put their horses.
If it wasn't in writing then the yard owner has done nothing wrong.
Your friend must be ever so upset.
Huggles to her at this terrible time.
I hate this blame culture.
Horses are horses. It is just as possible for a horse on his own to break a leg whilst having a crazy moment.
Other times you can see the biggest horse scrap ever and not one horse has so much as a graze.
I am sure yard owner is mortified by what has happened.
All sueing will do is bump up the premiums which in turn will bump up Livery charges.
Eventually no one will have to go through this ever again as no one will have anywhere to put their horses.
If it wasn't in writing then the yard owner has done nothing wrong.
Your friend must be ever so upset.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Well until OP tells us what the turnout arrangement was it's all speculation and third hand.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
P used to be next to another mare, T. They didn't get on and T lamed herself kicking the wall between them
So we shuffled pens around so they were parted. Another mare, Py, came next to P and they were fine together. However 4 days ago a colt foal we have in completely destroyed the wall between himself and T. I HAD to move T in back to the pen next to P. Imagine my absolute horror when the day before yesterday I found T with a huge bite mark on her neck (bleeding) and cut hocks
Of course, it wasn't *my* fault this had happened but I was absolutely horrified and really embarrassed
Like you though, I warn people - if they decide to chance it then I am devoid of responsibility, but I still feel wretched if someone happens - and I am always worried FAR more about the other person's horse, not my own!
Like you though, I warn people - if they decide to chance it then I am devoid of responsibility, but I still feel wretched if someone happens - and I am always worried FAR more about the other person's horse, not my own!
Weezy
Well-Known Member
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But what if they then moved your horse to a new field so you hadn't been able to check the fencing?
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If anyone moved my horse without my permission I would go off on a MAJOR rant and, TBH, would probably move yards. I HAVE to have complete trust in my yard and I expect respect back
But what if they then moved your horse to a new field so you hadn't been able to check the fencing?
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If anyone moved my horse without my permission I would go off on a MAJOR rant and, TBH, would probably move yards. I HAVE to have complete trust in my yard and I expect respect back
aimeerose
Well-Known Member
unless individual turnout was specified in the contract then i dont really think sueing is a fair path to take - no livery knowingly turns a dangerous aggressive horse out with another - it simply isnt worth it.
and simply because the other horse was a youngster isnt a point of blame - our babies regually go out with older horses!
if a horse is on full livery it is the livery yards job to manage turnout etc - they make the judgement calls.
horses have accidents, its a bloody shame and a waste of an equine life, but it happens -
we had a mare break a hind leg - in a flat field (she was on her own)
it was a weak point in her leg and what ever she did, however she did it, it snapped - very very sad as she was only 5. but it happens.
sometimes no one is to blame
and simply because the other horse was a youngster isnt a point of blame - our babies regually go out with older horses!
if a horse is on full livery it is the livery yards job to manage turnout etc - they make the judgement calls.
horses have accidents, its a bloody shame and a waste of an equine life, but it happens -
we had a mare break a hind leg - in a flat field (she was on her own)
it was a weak point in her leg and what ever she did, however she did it, it snapped - very very sad as she was only 5. but it happens.
sometimes no one is to blame
bex1984
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't sue...mainly because I couldn't bear to put someone through it; horses are horses, accidents happen.
However, if it was my horse that had done the kicking I'd be offering to claim 3rd party on my insurance to cover any of the other owner's costs (small consolation to them I know, but perhaps one less worry off their minds) Most insurance policies do cover for this - although not all, I checked the wording of my policy very carefully before taking it out.
However, if it was my horse that had done the kicking I'd be offering to claim 3rd party on my insurance to cover any of the other owner's costs (small consolation to them I know, but perhaps one less worry off their minds) Most insurance policies do cover for this - although not all, I checked the wording of my policy very carefully before taking it out.
claire1976
Well-Known Member
Something very similar happened to me last year. I'd got my mare at a livery yard, been there for 2 yrs without problem. I was away in Cuba when I got a phone call that Maggie had been kicked on the hock joint and taken to York Hospital. The YO had accepted a new livery whilst I was away. The owner had bought the horse and knew nothing about it but YO put horse straight into an established herd of 9. Consequently it went a bit mad and booted my horse.
She was well taken care of but transport costs to hospital were not covered by insurance and cost me £500. I was very, very cross at YO and horse owner but didn't sue. It was an accident, perhaps due to lack of thought, but an accident nontheless.
She was well taken care of but transport costs to hospital were not covered by insurance and cost me £500. I was very, very cross at YO and horse owner but didn't sue. It was an accident, perhaps due to lack of thought, but an accident nontheless.
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Guest
Yard politics make me laugh so much - I actually hate them (yards that is)!!
I had mine on full livery for a while and that made me laugh (although I didn't really like it as I like to make every single decision about my horse and did not appreciate anyone else making decisions for me!!). I suppose I'm too used to doing it all my way.
I had mine on full livery for a while and that made me laugh (although I didn't really like it as I like to make every single decision about my horse and did not appreciate anyone else making decisions for me!!). I suppose I'm too used to doing it all my way.
Natalie_H
Well-Known Member
It is very difficult - We part owned our yard with someone else until a year ago. We have two TB geldings (they were 4-y-o at the time) and the lady had her 3 cobs in her half of the field, and a 35 y-o pony sectioned in a smaller paddock.
She decided to turn the 35 y-o out with our 2, and he got in a fight with my boy who broke his leg. I felt absolutely horrible about it, but horses will be horses & it was her choice to turn him out with them in the knowledge that mine had a strong bossy streak.
It is one of those really unfortunate things
She decided to turn the 35 y-o out with our 2, and he got in a fight with my boy who broke his leg. I felt absolutely horrible about it, but horses will be horses & it was her choice to turn him out with them in the knowledge that mine had a strong bossy streak.
It is one of those really unfortunate things
OWLIE185
Well-Known Member
The owner can sue but several things should be considered by their legal team before proceeding.
They will need a written report from the vet as to the injuries.
They will require an independent report written by an equine behaviourist who is also on the panel of independent witnesses.
Was there a signed and dated contract between the Livery Yard and the owner(s) of the horse? If there was then the legal team will need to have site of the contract and study the terms and conditions. Remember disclaimers clauses are no longer valid in certain situations.
Was it requested that the horse should be only turned out by itself? If that was the case then the Livery Yard owners are probably liable even if there are mitigating circumstrances.
Is there any evidence to demonstrate that it was the foal that caused the injury? If that is the case then the owners of the horse can claim against the owners of the foal as well as the Livery Yard.
The livery yard owner has an oblication to use due care when looking after the horses in their care. If an accident occurs as a result of their actions then they can be held liable.
Putting two horses together that have not shared a field together before would these days be considered negligence.
It will all boils down to the evidence and costs involved and if insurers are prepared to settle out of court.
They will need a written report from the vet as to the injuries.
They will require an independent report written by an equine behaviourist who is also on the panel of independent witnesses.
Was there a signed and dated contract between the Livery Yard and the owner(s) of the horse? If there was then the legal team will need to have site of the contract and study the terms and conditions. Remember disclaimers clauses are no longer valid in certain situations.
Was it requested that the horse should be only turned out by itself? If that was the case then the Livery Yard owners are probably liable even if there are mitigating circumstrances.
Is there any evidence to demonstrate that it was the foal that caused the injury? If that is the case then the owners of the horse can claim against the owners of the foal as well as the Livery Yard.
The livery yard owner has an oblication to use due care when looking after the horses in their care. If an accident occurs as a result of their actions then they can be held liable.
Putting two horses together that have not shared a field together before would these days be considered negligence.
It will all boils down to the evidence and costs involved and if insurers are prepared to settle out of court.
Gingernags
Well-Known Member
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No.
I hate this blame culture.
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I know what you mean but sometimes a lesson needs to be be learned along the way.
It is only speculation until we know if individual or no turnout was agreed however, if it was and the YO was negligent in some way, why should the owner have to claim on insurance and I'd guess have an excess to pay etc for something that was out of their control at the time?
Can't remember who it was above who said about YO introducing a new horse while she was away and it had to go to vet hospital and she ended up paying £500 for transport - I'd be fuming and would not expect to pay that if someone caused it by acting negligently.
We had some horses poisoned with slug pellets that the farmer left in the field, it killed one horse and made several others (including 2 of ours) very ill, one of ours only just pulled through. We ended up with a massive vet bill and I got the farmer to pay it as back then no-one insured for vet fees, and he was negligent in leaving deadly chemicals in the field unsupervised - I pointed that out along with a veiled threat of legal action and they coughed up.
So, rambling back to the point, maybe whilst sueing might not be the answer, if there IS negligence there needs to be some penalty on the YO like her insurance coughing up etc not the owner's, to recompense the owner, that would make them think again about doing something negligent in the future?
No.
I hate this blame culture.
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I know what you mean but sometimes a lesson needs to be be learned along the way.
It is only speculation until we know if individual or no turnout was agreed however, if it was and the YO was negligent in some way, why should the owner have to claim on insurance and I'd guess have an excess to pay etc for something that was out of their control at the time?
Can't remember who it was above who said about YO introducing a new horse while she was away and it had to go to vet hospital and she ended up paying £500 for transport - I'd be fuming and would not expect to pay that if someone caused it by acting negligently.
We had some horses poisoned with slug pellets that the farmer left in the field, it killed one horse and made several others (including 2 of ours) very ill, one of ours only just pulled through. We ended up with a massive vet bill and I got the farmer to pay it as back then no-one insured for vet fees, and he was negligent in leaving deadly chemicals in the field unsupervised - I pointed that out along with a veiled threat of legal action and they coughed up.
So, rambling back to the point, maybe whilst sueing might not be the answer, if there IS negligence there needs to be some penalty on the YO like her insurance coughing up etc not the owner's, to recompense the owner, that would make them think again about doing something negligent in the future?
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Guest
If negligence was involved then I would definately sue, without doubt. I disagree, however, with sueing over accidents and until we find out (if we ever do) whether this resulted from negligence or was just an accident, it is impossible to answer the original question of whether or not we'd sue.
Super_Kat
Well-Known Member
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Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
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What?
Are you perfect? Does Dermot live a perfectly natural life......no, what was the point of this?
My riding horses go out for 2 hours each (alone!) every other day, they go out on the walker for a while every morning while I muck out so they can stretch their legs and apart from when they're being exercised they're stuck inside but TBH I don't think they really care!
Thay have thick beds because I don't want them on concrete.
Not realy sure what the point of your post was and TBH it didn't make an awful amount of sense.
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
[/ QUOTE ]
What?
Are you perfect? Does Dermot live a perfectly natural life......no, what was the point of this?
My riding horses go out for 2 hours each (alone!) every other day, they go out on the walker for a while every morning while I muck out so they can stretch their legs and apart from when they're being exercised they're stuck inside but TBH I don't think they really care!
Thay have thick beds because I don't want them on concrete.
Not realy sure what the point of your post was and TBH it didn't make an awful amount of sense.
Parkranger
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
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Oh the mirth......
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like.
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Oh the mirth......
mad_egg
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like
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Horses live about twice as long as they do in the wild - all because their 'mummies' actually care for them.
So does your horse live out in wide open grasslands, with predators included, having had no vaccinations/medical care, no shoes, and not ridden at all - and no human contact?!
Your statement really got on my nerves and is irrelevant in this thread.
Wow what lovely natural lifes our horses live... Never getting to socalise, stuck in boxes, walking a circult on hard ground, while people are payed to give them pillow beds....So there mummies can justife them selves. No wonder horses act the way they do when given half a chance to be a horse....Rather then this glass baby we treat them like
[/ QUOTE ]
Horses live about twice as long as they do in the wild - all because their 'mummies' actually care for them.
So does your horse live out in wide open grasslands, with predators included, having had no vaccinations/medical care, no shoes, and not ridden at all - and no human contact?!
Your statement really got on my nerves and is irrelevant in this thread.