Would you sue?

Haven't read all the replies, but can't see the point of sueing. Presumably the horse was insured, so they will get a payout without sueing. The horse hadn't been there very long before they went away, they were entrusting a lot to a fairly new situation and new people. Accidents happen, and if there is no evidence of a kick there is no way of knowing what occurred.
 
I don't think its a case to sue unless, as others have said, individual turnout was stipulated as part of the contract.

To be honest no one 'killed the horse off in 2 weeks' - the other horse did that therefore if anyone is to blame its the other horse.

Obviously there are sickos out there, but no self respecting horse person would wantonly encourage fighting amongst horses, so you must accept that it was nothing more than a terrible accident.

I am sorry for your friends loss and it is often the way to seek out someone to blame in these situations, but unfortunately I dont think thats the case here...
 
If there was no written agreement that the horse should be turned out alone then no I would not sue, even if the arrangement lacked common sense. I would try to be adult about it and get some money off my own insurers however upset I was.
If the horse should have been on it's own then that is a different matter - then sueing would become a reasonable option.
 
I wouldnt sue. Id obviously be devastated but nobody even knows HOW the horse broke its leg. I think if you go on holiday, you leave the horse in their care so it'll always be their common sense which applies. She may not have turned out with the young horse but the yard obviously felt it was ok to do so.
 
Sorry I completely disagree with your view.
The horse was on full livery which means the people in charge keep it as they feel is best for it, and to not turn a horse out at all is totally wrong.
As for blaming the horse I've seen horses break legs when they turn suddenly or put a foot down a dip in the ground, you can't possibly be certain it was a kick.
I'm afraid you sound a yard owners nightmare, totally unrealistic ideas of how to keep horses. It is normal practice to turn horses out with more than one other, unless they specifically asked that their horse never go out with another horse.
Plus if they knew the place had restricted turnout why did they choose to leave it there, there must be plenty of places with a paddock available for sole turn out provided you pay the higher cost...
As for sueing not a chance, horses are animals and do kick/bite/gallop about.
That's why owners have insurance.
sorry to be blunt but try and put yourself in the YO's position, most do the very best they can for horses in their care.
Edited to say I can't believe you are a yard owner with such views..
Anyone putting a horse on full livery should have discussed wth the YO first what they got for their money, and if they knew turnout was included on what sounds like a minimal grazing yard common sense should have told them the horses wouldn't be going out alone. Were there no horses out in paddocks when they left their horse there?
I too explain to anyone what happens here, that their horse may well get kicked and bitten as it settles in, and that I do my best to ensure the mix is a good one but horses are like kids, you can't control them 24 hours a day.. Accidents do happen and as horse owners we should accept that, the yard doesn't sound negligent at all to me.
 
Its an awful situation and I sympathise deeply, but its common practice for horses to be turned out in company at livery yards. Few have individual turnout and those that do specify it because its unusual (in the UK that is). A good Yard Manager will introduce horses over a fence for a while first, many don't, but will hopefully introduce the herd to the new horse gradually (the most submissive first etc).

Unless individual turnout was specified, your friend really doesn't have a case. These accidents will happen from time to time when we allow our horses some natural time together. I find that a bit of a worry with my mare, but I believe that being in a herd (of 3 in her case) is good for a horse's psychological health, so its worth the risk. I'm not thrilled about other horses having back shoes on (my mare doesn't), but there is an element of 'live and let live' at a livery yard. There has to be compromise and some increased risk when facilities are shared with other owners.
 
Re the comment

"Putting two horses together that have not shared a field together before would these days be considered negligence."

I cannot see how this could be the case - otherwise you would have no horses turned out together - there has to be a 'first time' horses are turned out together. We always took precautions when turning livery or riding school horses out (we ran big herds in huge fields, with a couple of smaller fields for trouble makers, and seperated mares and geldings) including introducing slowly over the fence, turning out with just one or two others to start with etc, but horses work out their own heirarchy and you have to let them have the initial buck and a squeal occassionally for them to settle down.

Whether you boot them before turning out depends a lot on the horse, I don't think it is necessary with all horses. I've seen some horses get kicked etc, but it isn't in direct corrolation to 'new' horses, accidents happen regardless of how new a horse is the the herd. I like livery owners to be there when we turn the horse out for the first time, but have also turned out for the first time on the request of owners - it's not something I would do without explicit consent. That said, unless there was a contract specifying 'individual turn out' then I wouldn't have said the yard owner was negligent, and my guess is that is how a legal team would see it as well - you cannot wrap horses in cotton wool, and it is a calculated risk that we take when we buy or care for horses.
 
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...if they knew turnout was included on what sounds like a minimal grazing yard common sense should have told them the horses wouldn't be going out alone.

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I really do NOT agree with that. If a horse is *holidaying* somewhere it should be on exclusion, surely! I do not think it is common sense that a horse will be turned out with another, in fact I think it is a lack of common sense that would lead to a horse being turned out with another without the owners of both horses in situ to watch how they react and decide whether there will be any problems. I would be furious if a YO took it on themselves to turn my horse out with another without my absolute OK on the matter.

However, we still do not know the whole story, and what was discussed.
 
Until it is proven that the break was due to a kick, much of this is speculation. I have seen a broken hind cannon from a twist whilst out cavorting. If horse was contracted to be kept single, then this is not what I'd be happy to have found on return from my holiday. I am a sad person who does not holiday for fear of this very thing
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and remain on constant vigil - as if it will prevent a tragic accident, but still.......
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I find it curious that one or two people are saying that turning them out alone is wrong yet there were horrified voices that a newly purchased horse was not being quarantined before being introduced to an established herd. No worries about fights, just germs and worms! (The voices were not necessarily the same ones, by the way
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We have a small pony here temporarily for a bit of re-education. NO WAY, for all of the above reasons, will he go out in my horses' company. He can see and interact with them, but that will have to do him!

This is a sad and difficult issue and I hope all can be quickly resolved without too much bitterness and recrimination. I wouldn't ever leave mine in the care of anyone without full do's and please don'ts.
 
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I'm afraid you sound a yard owners nightmare, totally unrealistic ideas of how to keep horses.

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You sound incredibly naive - I opened a discussion. I did not put my personal opinion across I asked for this issue to be discussed. If you want to start throwing insults this is not the time or place.

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Edited to say I can't believe you are a yard owner with such views..

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I am a yard owner and hence why I am asking for opinions. Being a yard owner you have to consider EVERY angle, both practical, law and moral!

Please enter this discussion in the spirit it was started. I've no time for people with throw away disparaging remarks
 
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We have a small pony here temporarily for a bit of re-education. NO WAY, for all of the above reasons, will he go out in my horses' company. He can see and interact with them, but that will have to do him!


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Exactly!!! Why would anyone that offers temp/holiday livery even bother integrating, I have run plenty of yards and there is no way I would - individual turn out all the way!
 
Ok, I'll admit it, I'm a solicitor -ranking somewhere below estate agents and paparazzi in the popularity stakes. I don't normally join in the legal debates as I'd be here forever, but what I can say is that I've observed a lot of misconceptions on the forum about the state of the law.

You would have to prove negligence on the part of the yard owner and that that negligence caused the injury complained of. You could also sue under the Animals Act if the owner knew of the other horse's propensity to kick out at other horses, if indeed it did have that propensity and still turned the horse out with it. Having said that, one of my own horses came in two weeks ago dead lame, would not even walk to his stable, so had to leave him standing in the yard till the vet came. He had been kicked by one of my other horses on the stifle and they all know each other and have been turned out together for years. It was just unfortunate. Two inches away and it wouldn't have connected even. He is ok now. However, the vet admitted after he'd recovered that he feared a fracture but wasn't sure, so they can still hobble around on breaks and fractures. Not pleasant, but possible.

My colleague recently did a case where the yard owners turned a horse out wearing a headcollar into a field where they had left a tractor bucket. The inevitable happened and the horse got caught up in it's headcollar with the bucket. That is different -pretty much indefensible to turn a horse out with a hazard in the field and an injury follows due to that hazard., especially when the livery contract stipulates that the livery yard owners retain discretion as to when and how the horses are turned out. They thereby assume a duty of care to use reasonable care in exercising that discretion.

I am sorry to hear what happened. If you want any more detail I won't bore the rest of the forum, but you can PM me if you like. And I can bore just you.
 
So .... am I being totally dim and incapable of reading properly
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. I've re-read this thread 3 times now and I STILL cannot see an answer to the question everyone is asking, LOL!!

Was the horse allowed to go out with other horses or did the owners sign a contract stating the horse would be turned out individually?
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I really don't think there is a straight forward answer - this is shades of grey.

Its a 2000 acre farm - however the horse part has loads of tiny paddocks for individual turnout. I think the owners were surprised that their horse was out with another, as this had not been the case prevously.

I haven't seen the contract, but the owners didn't get a say in much, so their horse was entirely in the yards care.

The other horse was a very bolshy youngster
 
I run 4 herds here (the majority of them are rambunctious youngsters) and yes I do have to move horses around from time to time, however when my owners first come here they are told this off the bat. Generally the herds move fields together but if I have a horse who is not getting on with it's herd or is causing trouble then this horse will be moved.....AFTER discussing it with the owner.

At my farm, I make sure that every horse at some time or another goes in with all of the other horses so that in an emergency (such as when the bear came for a visit) I can open all the field gates and make one enormous field out of them all. All of my fields are interconnecting.

The only horse I have on my farm who has not been in with every horse is the stallion and that is only because the geldings tried to kill him. He has been in with all of my mares at some time though. The rest have all run together at some time in the past and will do again at some point in the future.

If this is not the case in your friends situation then rather than suing, I think she needs to go and sit down a speak with the yard owner to find out exactly what happened and why it happened. There may well be a plausible excuse....albeit that an unfortunate incident occurred.
 
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but based on my understanding of contract law and tort law, I would want to know what was in the contract. I think it's impossible to comment otherwise.
 
Reading the latest reply the whole thing has changed..Now we have a 2000 farm with limited grazing? that doesn't make sense, your original post said very limited turn out or horse walker. Why would anyone with 2000 acres not have ample turn out? Plus if there were individual turn out paddocks, why didn't all concerned clarify before they left the horse they required solitary turn out?
I think I must live in a different universe to the rest of you, we do not turn horses out very often on their own because they stress and are likely to attempt to break out of their fields to join the others.
Although new horses are first isolated when they arrive, they do then go out with a small group of two or three of the same sex in fields big enough to run away from trouble if necessary. Small paddocks are not good from that point of view as they can't escape a barney.
As for the other horse it depends on what you mean by bolshy..Youngsters are often playful which can be interpreted as bolshy, but as the horse didn't have a mark on it it is unlikely to have been a kick that broke it's leg.
You say the owners were surprised the horse wasn't on it's own as that hadn't been the case previosuly, so they had left this horse there in the past then, and things had been different then?
I probably did come over a bit sharp in my reply, but to suggest sueing really annoyed me, it's hard enough to look after people's horses nowadays without being sued for what sounded like a simple accident, and it doesn't seem right that somewhere with that large acreage would be stuck with a tiny turn out area or a horse walker..
I agree if the horse had been stabled there before and had always been on it's own the owners would have expected a similar situation this time too.
If however it had been with another horse the last time, it would be acceptable for them to do the same arrangement again..
 
Reading the original post this horse wasn't holidaying but a full livery, it's the owners who went away the first two weeks' it was stabled there.
It often isn't practicable to offer single paddocks to liveries, even when I had 15 DIy's they had to share fields, we just didn't have enough land then.
I think this comes down to one thing, if people insist on individual paddocks either pay through the nose or buy your own land.
The majority of yards will only have shared fields, and the risk of being injured is always there, so insurance for individual horses is a must.
Most yard Owners do what they can, insist on pre-worming before a new horse arrives, isolate for as long as they can, but practicalities often mean new horses have to integrate within a couple of weeks...
The blame culture will lead to one thing in the end, few of us will offer livery and it
will become more expensive..
 
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