Would you try and persuade her to sell??

[Amyree]

I have had a horse on loan since last September and as far as Im concerned is a fairly normal loan arrangement ie to all intents and purposes he is mine in all but name. I keep him at my place, look after him, exercise him, pay for all costs etc etc. The owner didnt really want to sell as he is her first horse but always said she would only sell to me. So I have really bonded with him, love him to bits, not to mention he has helped me hugely with confidence issues. So I was merrily trundling along under the impression she would sell him to me when I had the money for him, which I have told her several times I wanted to do. Yesterday a friend of mine who is a very experienced owner and excellent, competent rider exercised him for me as a favour. This morning I jokingly said to the owner, i'll give you £1000 right now, today, and she turned round and said Ive changed my mind, im never selling him. Also then proceeded to tell me she didnt like this and didnt like that, including my friend riding him. For info, she brought him here on livery and then didnt want to ride him and was more than happy for me to loan him, she is quite an immature girl and I think basically doesnt want to give up rights over him but doesnt want to do anything with him. It is my yard and I will not be dictated to by her, regardless. I dont want to give him up but I also dont trust her now. I am in the process of getting him fit and jumping again and dont trust her to not suddenly want him back when he is. I cant see how we can really carry on, I have offered several times to draw up an agreement which suits both of us but I dont intend for it to include a list of people she doesnt want me to let ride him! I dont want to mess around like this and have really begun to think this could be my lifetime horse, which is what I want ie have him for the rest of his life untill either he or I drops. So would you try and persuade her to sell or would you tell her where to go?? And if you tried to buy what would be a reasonable price? He is a 10 year old Section D, quite smart but quite unfit at the moment and only doing hacking. He has been nicely schooled in the past but would really need to go back to basics with jumping. Saddle, bridle and a couple of rugs were to be included in the sale. She originally said £1700 which I think is unrealistic then said she would sell to me for £1200. Sorry for the essay but this has really upset me, I really thought he would be mine before too long but now I feel almost like I shouldn't ride him and get him fit for her to take back :-( x

 

[fredflop]

Have you got a written loan agreement? I think I would be rather annoyed if I found out that someone other than the loaner was riding the horse without prior permission...

 

[naza]

Have you got a written loan agreement? I think I would be rather annoyed if I found out that someone other than the loaner was riding the horse without prior permission...

Ditto this, I think she has every right to be annoyed by that situation!

 

[Amyree]

As I said I have offered several times to draw up an agreement, she did say several months ago she had one but has never brought it up. Agreed, I should have pursued that. I have to disagree about the other rider though. Whilst she knows full well I wouldnt let just anyone on him, this person is a well known local rider who gave him an excellent workout yesterday as I was unable to ride, and as he is a little overweight I was very grateful. The reason I disagree is she has entrusted this horse to me in every way so should also trust my judgement about who gets on him. This was a completely one-off situation and as I said not like I invite just anyone to get on him. Annoyingly I think its this that has triggered her change of mind about selling him.Perhaps Im naive then about the loan situation, fair enough if thats the case. But what to do now?

 

[*hic*]

If he's your horse of a lifetime offer her the £1700 she originally wanted. If she won't accept then walk away.

 

[PorkChop]

I can see this from both sides, however, bottom line is he is her horse. So if she doesn't want another person riding him then so be it.

I would, in writing, make her a proper offer for the horse. The ball is then in her court, give her a month to decide, and then it is up to you whether you carry on with the loan if she decides not to sell.

 

[Amyree]

Thank you all, fair comments and good advice x

 

[FfionWinnie]

I have to say if the horse is as dear to you as you say it is, you were a bit cheeky saying 1k. 1700 isn't a lot for a horse that's done what you describe for you. At ten he has a lot of years left as well. I think I would let the dust settle, save the 1700 and tell her nicely that you have the money and would like to buy him. If she won't sell at that point, ask for a loan agreement so you know where you stand, if she won't do that, I would give him back or accept you may lose him with no notice.

 

[Amyree]

The offer was said jokingly and she knows I know hes worth more than that

 

[WelshD]

I'd let the dust settle then approach it from a more gentle angle, ask her to understand that you only want to safeguard your work on the horse by asking for a loan agreement

£1700 doesn't sound a lot for a decent Welsh D with some past education under his belt so I'd offer that. If you offered £1200 and she refused and took the horse back you'd be kicking yourself I think

 

[Cowpony]

It sounds like you gave her a bit of a shock when you made an offer there and then. She may have thought she might sell him to you at some point in the future, but when that point arrived unexpectedly she probably panicked, as she isn't yet at that point mentally or emotionally. I'd sit down and have a chat in a relaxed setting where neither of you is being bounced into a situation you don't want. If you both agree that you want the loan to continue draw up the main points together, then you can draft the full agreement later and get her to sign it.

 

[trickivicki]

£200 on top of your offer is nothing if you intend on keeping him for ever, drop the cash off to her tonight and think no more of it

 

[misskk88]

As I said I have offered several times to draw up an agreement, she did say several months ago she had one but has never brought it up. Agreed, I should have pursued that. I have to disagree about the other rider though. Whilst she knows full well I wouldnt let just anyone on him, this person is a well known local rider who gave him an excellent workout yesterday as I was unable to ride, and as he is a little overweight I was very grateful. The reason I disagree is she has entrusted this horse to me in every way so should also trust my judgement about who gets on him. This was a completely one-off situation and as I said not like I invite just anyone to get on him. Annoyingly I think its this that has triggered her change of mind about selling him.Perhaps Im naive then about the loan situation, fair enough if thats the case. But what to do now?

End of the day, it is her horse, and so whether or not it was a 'one off', if you did not seek permission, regardless of this persons experience, the owner has every right to be annoyed. It is still HER horse, no matter how little she does or doesn't do. It all comes down to showing respect for each other, if there are no boundaries, this can be extremely hard (and yes a contract would help with this).

Let the dust settle, ask for clarification from her in the meantime regarding other riders (and perhaps just say sorry to clear the air!), and then once the atmosphere has died down a bit, have a good honest chat with her that you just want to safeguard the work you are putting into the horse, by either having a loan agreement, or buying. Personally if she wants £1700 I would offer that, especially if you think he is your horse a of a lifetime. That really is not a lot at all, and I wouldn't be surprised if she felt that £1000 was a bit cheeky.

If she says no, and won't draw up a contract either so that you know what you can/can't do with her horse, then I would walk away. Too much hassle, too much fogginess, too much room for arguments and risk of the horse being snatched underneath you.

 

[Welly]

Loaning a horse is such a mine field! She should have said no other riders at the start, If as you say you are doing everything for the horse and she pays and does nothing I don't think it's unreasonable for you to let other people ride if you are happy. I would be worried that she will take back the horse when you have spent time and money getting it fit, it will also be worth more then.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

This issue will always raise its head with a loan horse. You need a proper loan agreement which stipulated all the conditions of the loan. Once this is in plafce both loaner & owner know exactly where they stand & what is allowed & what is not. Very often with a loan horse the owner will stay away from you & the horse for quite a while & then turn up 'to check on the condition of the horse?' Then when they see the horse is now fit, in good condition & nicely schooled they decide to terminate the loan & either have the horse back for themselves or sell the horse as it is now worth considerably more than it was worth when the loan commenced. All this condition & schooling all being done or paid for by the loaner.

I'm not saying this is doing to happen here but always have it in mind.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am another who says offer her the £1700 and do it quickly .
If it's your horse of a lifetime don't mess about .
While it's her horse it's her rules so sort it out ASAP .
If she won't sell then return the horse and move on as with no agreement and resentment already building it's going to end in years at some point .

 

[rowan666]

i can see this from both sides, as an owner i would not be happy about anyone other than loaner and their instructor to ride horse, but as a loaner can see how frustrating some owners are when the only reason they dont want to sell while horse is no use to them is because they just love to boast about the fact that they own a horse. Just make her a realistic offer that she wont want to refuse on the basis that if she turns it down you will walk away and she will have to find another yard for him because you need the space for a horse you will buy instead, she sounds like the sort that dsnt want the hassle of getting her hands dirty so will probobly just sell

 

[WelshD]

she will have to find another yard for him because you need the space for a horse you will buy instead, she sounds like the sort that dsnt want the hassle of getting her hands dirty so will probobly just sell

Excellent point

 

[Gentle_Warrior]

Have you got a written loan agreement? I think I would be rather annoyed if I found out that someone other than the loaner was riding the horse without prior permission...

Ditto, I would be livid, have been in the past, hence horse now back with me (all over a lack of a call or text about someone else wanting to ride one time) and I will never loan again.

 

[Amyree]

So glad I posted this!! Lots of good advice and constructive criticism thank you!

 

[wingedhorse]

Ditto, I would be livid, have been in the past, hence horse now back with me (all over a lack of a call or text about someone else wanting to ride one time) and I will never loan again.

If you had a contract saying loaner only to ride, and it was breached, then that is very wrong.

The OP has no contract, and has never had expectations defined by the owner, despite trying to put a contract in place, so different situation.

I’ve loaned three horses. I’ve always had it built into the agreement that other suitable people can ride them occasionally as needed. E.g. if I am away, other experienced friends of mine / my instructor / my yard owner etc. Not a regular thing, but occasionally absolutely essential if I go away for ten days etc. and don’t want the horse having time off before a competition etc.

If the owner of the horse loaning to me, that is going to trust me to keep their horse well, and make the right decisions about their horse’s welfare, but cannot trust be to find suitable riders in my absence if needed, I would walk away from the loan.

Loaning takes proper communication and trust on both sides.

 

[SpringArising]

If I loan out a horse then I don't care if other people ride it. As far as I'm concerned, the loaner is essentially the new owner - I'm just hanging onto the horse legally.

I think it's a bit cheeky to dictate what someone does and doesn't do with the horse if they are paying for everything for it - especially when it's something as harmless as letting a friend have a little ride. I understand if it's a sharer, but a loaner who does everything is a different ball game.

 

[Wagtail]

When I have loaned horses in the past I have always asked the owner's permission if anyone else was going to ride the horse. I wouldn't dream of doing otherwise. It is common courtesy. £1000 is far too little for this horse. £1700 seems like a fair price to me. However, the owner was wrong to agree £1200 and then up the price. I would maybe offer £1500 but be prepared to pay the £1700. It would be worth it for a horse that you know has no hidden surprises and which you really like. Good luck. I hope the owner sells him to you.

 

[touchstone]

I think you need to offer to buy the horse at the asking price, he isn't expensive especially considering tack is included.

I'd do that and then probably terminate the loan if she's unwilling to sell as it sounds as if things are going to go downhill.

 

[muddy_grey]

When I went to uni I loaned my boy out. I knew her and trusted her. I am sure others rode him, but I didn't care as I trusted the loaner to not put a numpty on him. I think saying she should have got permission is a bit crazy when there is no agreement.

The key to this whole thread is not having an agreement. You need to get one ASAP. I would have the horse independently valued and write into the loan agreement that if at any point she wished to sell you have first refusal at the current market value, so she can't ask for money for your hard work. I also added that if she didn't buy him then and he was sold by her then we would split anything over that sum, but I can see not many would be up for that!

If she isn't willing to sign an agreement then you have to be strong and say you aren't willing to continue with the loan. Either she sells or moves him. As hard as it might be if she took him it won't be any easier in a year or more when you are out having fun with him.

 

[Pigeon]

Have you got a written loan agreement? I think I would be rather annoyed if I found out that someone other than the loaner was riding the horse without prior permission...

Yeah me too, tbh.

And I know people, who are regarded by others as experienced, but have some questionable approaches. So perhaps it is a personal thing about that particular friend rather than people riding him in general.

And the price is very reasonable. I guess it depends where you live, but she would get £1700 for him here easily if he is well put together.

I would tell her you want to buy him, and if not, don't wish to continue the loan. You might find when she is faced with the reality of actually looking after her horse she changes her mind. I agree that I would worry she would take him back when you have put in the hours. Make sure you have a good agreement drawn up anyway, I would get that done asap whatever you decide.

 

[huskydamage]

If I loan out a horse then I don't care if other people ride it. As far as I'm concerned, the loaner is essentially the new owner - I'm just hanging onto the horse legally.

I think it's a bit cheeky to dictate what someone does and doesn't do with the horse if they are paying for everything for it - especially when it's something as harmless as letting a friend have a little ride. I understand if it's a sharer, but a loaner who does everything is a different ball game.

agree with above. My friend loaned a pony for literally years, the owner had nothing to do with it. They wouldn't have known if it's leg had fallen off! I rode him many times myself. The only time the owner showed interest in what was going on was when my friend had done tons shows and been very successful (he hadn't done anything previously). They suddenly decided to sell for some ridiculous price that my friend couldn't afford and that was that. The pony got sold elsewhere.

I would offer the 1700 and if she doesn't accept move on. I know it's hard if you really like the horse, but that money could be spent on a new horse that is officially yours to do with what you wish.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I'm sorry, you might have meant it as a joke and she might have laughed but I think it could easily be taken as an insult. That would explain her answering you with she will never sell.

 

[Tally-lah]

I think there are two key areas here which need to be addressed and there is clearly a difference of opinion between yourself, OP, and the owner.

1. You want to buy the horse and owner doesn't want to sell. You need to speak with her (maybe an email would be a good idea as you then have evidence of conversation) and state you would like to buy him. Ask how much she wants for him and arrange a transfer of cash in exchange for ownership. If she declines you then need to decide if you want to continue to "loan" the horse.

2. If this is the case you NEED a loan agreement, I am always shocked when I hear about people entering into loans without one, it safe-guards both parties.

Unfortunately, while you might love the horse as your own and consider it yours, it isn't. If she doesn't want others to ride it that's her choice, no matter how unreasonable you feel her decision is. All part and parcel of loaning, I'm afraid (I say all this as someone who has loaned in the past and the owner drove me potty and as someone who has a horse who is currently out on loan too).

 

[Equine_Dream]

Sorry to be blunt but - her horse her rules. You can throw a strop and say you wont be dictated to by her as much as you like, but I think you'll find that as long as youre riding her horse then you will; or you'll find yourself horseless pretty quickly.
If it were my horse I would be livid if my loaner had let someone else ride it without my permission. The reasoning isnt really relevant. If its my horse and I say I want it to wear purple on the second tuesday of every month, you do it or my horse will be coming back to me sharpish.
I agree its not right that she hasnt put a loan agreement in place and in all fairness it sounds like youve tried your best to get it sorted.
In regards to selling the horse I agree with the others. Wait for the dust to settle and then talk to her about it again. Be completely clear that youd like to buy him and what youre willing to pay. She can only say yes or no. Good luck