Would you?

My lab was insured until she was 11, I cancelled it then as I certainly wouldn't have put her through a big operation at that age. Prior to that she was insured and £8,000 would have been covered.
I insure so any decision would not be influenced by cost rather than what was right for my dog, I'm not sure what I'd have done even if I was insured.
 
I would run up my credit cards and/or take out a second mortgage for my boy, if it was something that would add quality. One girl I wouldn't and would really have to do hard thinking for the other girl.
 
My friend put her Great Dane through this and he never walked again. She took a chance and it didn’t pay off. It’s what she did afterwards that used to upset me though. The dog wasn’t paralysed, he could use his legs but chose not to but she kept him going for another two years just laid in one room having to be catheterised every few hours.

My vet has just had his own dog operated on for this and it’s been a complete success and pooch is now totally back to normal. So that’s the other side of the coin.

As for what I would do? The odds of 80% are not good enough for me. Money would also factor, 8k is bonkers!! So I guess I’m saying, no I probably wouldn’t do it.
 
cauda equina said:
I wonder if vets are getting a bit too gung-ho for our (and our dogs') good
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I blame it on that Noel Fitzpatrick vet - I used to be amazed by what he could achieve, but now often wonder how ethical some of his procedures are, and for whose benefit.........ie the dogs, or the owners, or his own celebrity status and bank balance.
 
Met a beagle in the woods who was as recovered as he was going to get after a herniated disc. He walked ok, not brilliantly.

I don’t know if I would do it. Jake had two tplos, recovered quickly but when we found out he had a spinal and stomach tumour (suddenly couldn’t walk one day), he was PTS as soon as the vet could come. Same vet, the receptionist had the same situation and kept the dog going on steroids. It couldn’t walk, just stayed in its bed and messed itself then pts some slow and painful weeks later. So unnecessary and cruel.
 
Yes, I would if it had a good prognosis. I would happily get fixed a dogs broken leg, which required rest and time to recover so if I had a good chance (and for sugery 80% is pretty good!) at recovery and I could afford it (key phrase) and the pet wasn't going to be painful or lying in its own toileting I would see no reason in an otherwise young fit dog not to go ahead.
 
If the prognosis was fair, the cause was clear, plus there wasn’t anything else going on then yes I‘d do it. It’s about 10K I have access to between insurance and cards and wouldn’t hesitate to spend that on him if he needed it. If there was other things going on like arthritis, the condition was degenerative rather than trauma, the prognosis was awful or he couldn’t be kept comfortable and calm, then that changes it. With biology there’s no 100% guarantees.
 
I think you always have to take each case individually. Some dogs would deal with surgery and the aftercare, others wouldn't. A bit like horses and box rest/rehab.
One of my Great Danes would probably have to be pts in this scenario as he doesn't cope with strangers well and he would find it all very stressful.
 
Interesting thread.
No, I would not put my dog through this, nothing to do with the money.
I don’t watch the Supervet as I quickly realised while very clever and has restored dogs to full health there are many that go through a lot and don’t have a quality of life.
Its us that are in bits after losing a beloved dog but surely in many cases better to let the dog go.
Its the same with cancer treatments where dogs are put through huge surgery and it gives the owner a few more months. I don’t do it. Think of the dog, not the owner.
 
L&M said:
I blame it on that Noel Fitzpatrick vet - I used to be amazed by what he could achieve, but now often wonder how ethical some of his procedures are, and for whose benefit.........ie the dogs, or the owners, or his own celebrity status and bank balance.
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Not judging the man here, I don't know him and TV can put what-ever slant it wants on to anything, but I think the programme has given many people artificially high expectations of what can be achieved. That's probably badly worded as so much CAN be achieved these days. We have had the same vet for over 20 years now and having discussed situations fully with him, we trust his advice. In one such discussion he said that just because something can be done, it doesn't always make it right to do it.

We have always had good insurance for all our dogs (even when the premiums have got silly) because I dont want to be put in the position of having to make a decision about my dog's future based on cost. It can then be purely about what is morally right for that dog. (That is not meant to be offensive to anyone, I do appreciate that I am lucky to be in that position and that not everyone is.)
 
Is there a Supervet Effect going on, by which normal, non-Super vets think they ought to treat more ambitiously/aggressively?

My old terrier would get subjected to all sorts of things I consider to be inappropriate if I let his vet have their way, whereas the horse vets never try to pressure me into anything
 
A friend of mine has a JRT x, who suddenly went off his back legs. I think he is a about 6 and a real livewire. He had a disc problem so she decided to go ahead with the op, self funded from savings. He recovered but not 100% and she was told that he had a lot of dried out discs. Needless to say he will not get further surgery.
 
I also think it depends on what the cause of the injury is - reading my previous post again, I think the reason that I spend that amount of money on the cat was because it was an actu of cruelty by humans that caused it, and it felt heartless to have to PTS because of that - had it have been an accident, or disc issue that resulted in the same cost & recovery I probably wouldn't have gone ahead with it.
 
meggymoo said:
I'd love to know how much some of the bills are. Certainly beyond my limit.
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Fitzpatrick's won't even give you a ball park figure either when you ask. Now, don't get me wrong, I wasn't going to quote them on the figure they gave me but I did ask how much (approx) a patella groove surgery would be, given that Willow's had failed and, at that time I was looking at maybe surgery again. The receptionists wouldn't even entertain telling me an approx amount. This is fine but you have no idea where you're starting from - 2K, 5K, 10K?????? A rough estimate wouldn't hurt.

Anyways, she's being 'managed' non surgically now but if surgery was back on the table, Fitzpatrick's wouldn't be getting my business.
 
My dog and cats are not insured and I definitely don’t have £8000 lying around. I would never say never because I’d take each circumstances as it comes but it would be highly unlikely that I’d pay that amount out and certainly not for something where there wasn’t a pretty good chance of returning to full health and mobility without an extensive painful recovery.

Some of the prices quoted are scary. I don’t remember ever paying anything like that to a small animal vet for an operation. I do feel a bit nervous about not having insurance but that’s not cheap either.
 
deb_l222 said:
Fitzpatrick's won't even give you a ball park figure either when you ask. Now, don't get me wrong, I wasn't going to quote them on the figure they gave me but I did ask how much (approx) a patella groove surgery would be, given that Willow's had failed and, at that time I was looking at maybe surgery again. The receptionists wouldn't even entertain telling me an approx amount. This is fine but you have no idea where you're starting from - 2K, 5K, 10K?????? A rough estimate wouldn't hurt.

Anyways, she's being 'managed' non surgically now but if surgery was back on the table, Fitzpatrick's wouldn't be getting my business.
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Good grief! You at least need to have some idea! I understand that it may not be possible to give an exact figure before they open them up but isn't that where an estimate as opposed to a quotation comes in? Surely you at least need to have an idea of a start figure.
 
My dog had major spinal surgery 18 months ago to repair complications after an infection on his spine. He’d already had five months of heavy duty antibiotics and painkillers which had cleared the infection but he was still in pain. He was only 4 when he developed the infection, which was sheer bad luck (bacteria got in through a minor cut on his paw which we’d barely noticed, and then somehow made its way to his spine and got established there).

The surgery and treatment were mostly covered by his insurance and the recovery wasn’t too bad - four weeks in a crate, only coming out for toilet breaks, then gradually building up walks plus hydrotherapy once he’d recovered enough. Six months after the operation he was completely back to normal - running, swimming, playing with no pain and no sign that anything had ever been wrong!

We couldn’t have left him as he was as he was in constant pain and couldn’t do any of the things he loved doing as a young, active dog. The alternative would have been to PTS but we wanted to give him a chance, and it worked
 
meggymoo said:
Good grief! You at least need to have some idea! I understand that it may not be possible to give an exact figure before they open them up but isn't that where an estimate as opposed to a quotation comes in? Surely you at least need to have an idea of a start figure.
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I mildly sympathise with Fitzpatricks on this. Not on a lot else! This dog was done at Dick Whites and they quoted £5000. It ended up at £8500 as he had to stay in ICU for several days longer than expected, and that is one on one 24/7 nursing, apparently.
 
Clodagh said:
I mildly sympathise with Fitzpatricks on this. Not on a lot else! This dog was done at Dick Whites and they quoted £5000. It ended up at £8500 as he had to stay in ICU for several days longer than expected, and that is one on one 24/7 nursing, apparently.
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Dont get me wrong, I fully appreciate that the price can rocket once they've started, no-one knows what complications they may come across, but at least he had a quote (or should that be an estimate) for £5k in the first place. I dont think many people who have not been in the situation have the first idea of how much these things are likely to cost them and therefore need a clue before giving the go-ahead. On a tangent, many years ago, our horse had to have an eye removed. We weren't told the cost, we were upset about her and had insurance anyway, which did cover it. However, reading threads on here afterwards, re costs for eye removal, it seems people paid vastly less than we did, for similar. The cynic in me quickly realised that from start to finish, from the first consult about her eye, to the final stitches out, the total bill was just £7 short of the £5k limit!
 
Even as a vet calling to refer it’s only the vet that’ll give me estimates, I think that’s standard across the board for referral level. In general going over estimates causes chaos but is very easy to do, so there might be the odd sneaky down price to make it still fit...!
 
Noel (Supervet) price guides are on the website
https://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/veterinary-professionals/price-guide/

The website states that "A more accurate estimate of costs will be given at the initial consultation".
Thing is what the tv show doesn't show you is the hundreds of patients they have to euthanise, or tell the owners that surgery isn't the best option. Doesn't make for great TV does it, so only the odd 1 or 2 are shown. A lot of places have been doing these types of surgeries for years, It's just that Supervet is televised.

For me it would depend on the initial injury, what type of surgery is to be performed, the surgeons expertise in that area of surgery and more importantly....the dog. My collie would have never coped with the rehab afterwards, being kept calm and restricted movement etc. If I did not work in veterinary then I would be considering insurance. As I would not be able to pay for that sort of surgery off the bat. And would have to think very carefully about getting myself in to debt.

For other dogs, it's not so much of a problem. I have always thought the same about colic surgery in horses, and I have always said no if ever any of my horses required it. But I do know people with fairly chill horses and good facilities/experience that have done well. Your vet might not know what your animal is like at home or how well you can rehab them. They can only offer you all of the options.

Sometimes people don't always do what is right for their animal though, and do persist with long stints of medications or post-surgery rehabbing when the animal is not of a temperament to cope with it. Or the owner does not follow the vets advise. I have seen cats & dogs having external fixators put on for fractured legs....to then go running around the park/swimming on the beach the next day, and then wonder why their dog is in pain/infected and the metalwork is all broken days later....swearing that they will never do surgery again and that it was all the vets fault.
 
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Without hesitation for my current dog.

The prognosis longterm for the surgery is excellent and I have a young otherwise healthy dog who would tolerate the rehab and crate rest easily.

I have insurance for this exact reason.

Even if I decide to drop insurance I'd still be willing to do surgery for ivdd with an 80 percent prognosis.
However that said I did chose not to buy a dachshund in order to avoid the chances if facing this sort of choice!

It very much would depend on the dog though.
I euthanised my beautiful old labrador when she blew her cruciate because she was not a candidate for surgery and the longterm prospect for her walking pain free were not good enough for me to keep her going.
Quality not Quantity and it all comes down to longterm quality of life.

It helps I've seen multiple fabulous recoveries and longterm return to full function pets post the ivdd surgeries as well. They are very rarely excessively painful post surgery(thanks to fentanyl mostly) and usually show quick recoveries.The rehabs quite intensive but most I've seen do well enough that within a few weeks or months they are back to presurgical levels.

Dachshunds are incredible popular where I work. This is a very common issue with them to the point we discuss it in the early puppy vaccines and advise insurance or save. I hate euthanising middle aged daxies for this due to finances....but it happens.

Dogs are much better at coping post op then humans imo.
 
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Thanks @Umbongo, interesting. Some eye-watering, some not so and I suppose a client has to expect that for the expertise of a specialist in their chosen field. I think sometimes we (the general public) tend to forget the over-heads in veterinary practice too, constantly updating equipment, courses on new procedures, annual courses, staffing costs etc etc etc.
 
Sorry extremely long post but I've had too much coffee today and now am thinking to much to sleep.

I have to admit I also don't understand the dislike for Noel Fitzpatrick.
While not everyone does want or can afford to offer the level of medicine that he's is able to provide.. that does not make him a bad person for pushing the boundaries and attempting to drag vet med into the modern medical world. He's doing it in a state of the art hospital with an anesthesia and pain med team on board. Many of the animals he treats are getting better medical care than humans.
Vet med has been lagging behind human medicine for decades....and several of his pushing the boundaries surgeries when it comes to dogs were human surgeries that were initially practiced on dogs as test subjects....but the canines never got to see the benefits and use as it was never openly published in relation to dogs.

There's also an awful lot worse happens to people's pets in private practice then the questionable "ethics" that people take issue being shown on the show. His surgery dogs aren't being operated on and managed with minimal pain relief and limited follow-up care.
There's also an awful lot worse statistical outcomes for several commonly done procedures in practice than some of his new cutting edge surgeries...generally, the salvage lower-cost options that are done to try and help the dog rather than euthanize for a treatable condition. Ethics get real shady grey when financial limitations get applied.

Ethics is a very interesting side of pet ownership.
Where do we draw the line for palliative care in dogs?
in humans, its only palliative care no euthanasia allowed so we expect people to suffer the indignity of natural death as a baseline....but generally expect better for our pets.
When is it acceptable to treat them like a human medically?
when we provide the same level of aftercare(or shock horror better in some cases!)
when is it too much? what specific points make it a decision that this is suffering? is it pain> what about when they are on multimodel pain relief? it is when it's only a short time span that they will live for? what if that time can be living life as a normal dog once they recover from surgery. We do pretty invasive surgery as the norm to lots of animals to make them better pets...

When do we prosecute people for failing and neglecting to care for their animals? it's easy in the severe and blatant abuse case...but how about when owners decide to decline pain relief for painful conditions... like a ruptured cruciate because the dog isn't crying in pain just holding up the leg? and that medication.. it's expensive...and it's only a dog...or worse a cat. who spends money on a cat after all?
Do we euthanise the dog for the sore leg/ruptured cruciate rather than have it suffer? Most eventually scar up and use it again eventually and live a pretty normal lifespan after...albeit with oa and chronic pain earlier then if surgery was done.
how is the cruciate dog ok because it's only a dog and you know its expensive.... but the prosthetic dog is suffering and that shouldn't be allowed?despite the fact they will be kept comfortable throughout.
Do we euthanise any animal that in chronic pain and not on meds?

The vast majority of adult dogs suffer from dental disease. Humans know dental disease is painful when it happens to them....and yet...

It is possible to do heart surgery on dogs in heart failure. theres a team of Vets that can repair the mitral valve that's causing the heart failure and give the dog essentially a normal lifespan. The reason it's not done often is cost. But it exists...and its a lot cheaper than the human medical equivalent. But its cruel to put a dog through heat surgery..right? or is it. How about if they will live normal lifespan afterward and get the same level of care as a human...or better given the one on one care they tend to receive in the hospitals ICU? we do it to babies and children.....they can't consent either. wheres is the line? and why is that the line?

At the moment animals are property. Its owner's choices on how far they can go with a lot of procedures....and in a lot of the medical choices being made.

There are an awful lot more questionable things going on then what Noels showing on his show. There's an awful lot more suffering and generalised neglect in day to day practice goes on then the dogs being shown on his show....

Obviously if you judge by the show alone it also gives a blinkered view of the good outcomes,especially in the early seasons...but in the later seasons you'll also notice something else...realism and euthanasia been shown. The early seasons are all optimism the later ones are more gritty to give people a more realistic expectation of medicine.
It's called practicing medicine for a reason, the areas always evolving.

The ethics however....thinnking about animals and ethics gets real interesting.

The values different people place on animals vary dramatically.
 
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