Wound round the axle again . . . seriously worried and confused :(

PolarSkye

PolarSkye

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I'm getting more and more perplexed about what's causing Kal's lameness.

Yes, I know there's no real point speculating until we see what the x-rays bring us on Monday, but the idea that he has had minimal/no digital pulses for at least a week, no heat in his feet for at least a week, is bright and active enough in himself, isn't reluctant to move, is no longer pottery on turns and shown a marked improvement in his left fore (as in isn't lame on it any more) . . . but is still 2/10ths lame on his right fore (which incidentally is his club foot) and now there are these "depressions" around the coronet band of his two forefeet means we're neither forward nor backward in terms of progress.

I was so in a muddle with the vet this morning that I forgot to ask him a bunch of things . . . including what progression of those depressions would look/feel like so I can watch for them/keep an eye. When I felt all four of his feet after the vet left, I could feel a definite distinction between the hairline and the coronet band on all four feet . . . surely that can't be what the vet meant? If it is, then from what I've read/heard, we're looking at chronic sinking in all four feet and the kindest thing would be to have him PTS. But this is the horse who when trotted up for me on Wednesday (having not had bute for a couple of days) tried to leg it up to the field and then later had a full-on tantrum when being led back to his stable . . . mini rears and cantering on the spot! He didn't look or behave like a horse in chronic pain :confused:

Ditto today. Yes, there was a shortening of the stride due to that off fore lameness, but he was bright, eager to move and full of the proverbial.

So. If it IS chronic founder/sinking, is it usual for a horse with this condition in both his front feet to have no digital pulses, no heat and be quite happy in himself? And if it is . . . what should I be looking for/at and/or feeling for around his coronet bands? And lastly, if it is, can he recover to at least being a decorative field ornament?

It doesn't help that our telly has suddenly (with no reason I can see) decided that it can't find a signal from our Sky Box so I can't even distract myself with Come Dine Me or some other rubbish . . . so I'm driving myself utterly mad imagining the absolute worst. It's going to be a very long weekend . . . :(.

P
 
I don't really know. I would expect a horse with rotation serious enough to be felt to be really quite miserable and reluctant to move but horses can be funny really.

My telly keeps doing that too though, maybe it's a problem at Sky's end. Try not to worry too much.
 
jesstickle said:
I don't really know. I would expect a horse with rotation serious enough to be felt to be really quite miserable and reluctant to move but horses can be funny really.

My telly keeps doing that too though, maybe it's a problem at Sky's end. Try not to worry too much.
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Yeah - and he's such a stoic boy. A real wuss about some things (like the wheelbarrow being in his stable with him) but not at all baby'ish about pain. When he had his fracture last year, if it had been up to him, he'd have been out in the paddock in a couple of days - never mind box rest for four weeks. He was cantering round his stable and doing handstands (he fractured his left fore).

Sigh.

Telly's been off since about 4.00 a.m. - we've tried all day. If it's still off tomorrow, I will be getting in touch with Sky. Grrrrr.

P
 
He obviously isn't in so much pain as horses with acute laminitis. When my mare got it in only one foot with no rotation or sinking, she refused to even come out of her stable. However, the dints do usually indicate rotaion (not necessarily sinking). I would therefore be keeping him in on a deep shavings bed (if you aren't already). Rotation CAN be reversed, but it is a long slog. I think you need things clarifying by your vet.
 
Wagtail said:
He obviously isn't in so much pain as horses with acute laminitis. When my mare got it in only one foot with no rotation or sinking, she refused to even come out of her stable. However, the dints do usually indicate rotaion (not necessarily sinking). I would therefore be keeping him in on a deep shavings bed (if you aren't already). Rotation CAN be reversed, but it is a long slog. I think you need things clarifying by your vet.
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Re the pain - yes, I know, and this is what is perplexing me (and the vet). He hasn't had bute since Monday so nothing's masking any pain he may be feeling. He is in - on a deep bed and we will continue to soak his hay and give him armfuls of goose grass and nettles (vet isn't 100% convinced that these will help but says they won't hurt). Vet has gone from being 75-80% sure he has lami to only being 50/50 . . . and isn't willing to offer an alternate diagnosis without seeing the x-rays.

So . . . what do these "dints" look/feel like? This is my confusion (well one of them) . . .

P
 
Hi PS, my mare had slight sinking in one fore foot. She never showed any obvious laminitic signs, her pulses were normal she just went slightly and intermittently lame. Initially the vets were stumped, but x-rays showed the sinking, no rotation.

She was shod in heart bars initially and brought into work once, but now works well barefoot with no reoccurence.

Even if she has sunk, it doesn't mean pts. :)
 
Cross posted from another forum. This shows what hooves can look like after some weeks/months of rotation:

Re: Rotating pedal bones?
Post by wendyihts on Aug 24, 2007, 4:38pm

gallery2-18a.jpg


gallery2-18b.jpg




the most obvious sign is the gross deviation in the front hoof wall. The hoof wall grows down from the hoof wall corium at the coronet, which is attached very strongly to the top part of the coffin bone and the wall should follow the straight front of the coffin bone. When the toe is left too long, with each step the front wall's being pulled away from the front of the coffin bone and so you get a mechanical rotation.

You might also have deep collateral grooves, which are the grooves along the side of the frog and long heels where the back of the coffin bone is being made to sit too high off the ground.

You might get a deep-ish groove running along the top of the hoof/coronet that you can run your finger along, as you can get your finger inside the P2/P3 joint because the joint's now more open than it should be. but this is more associated with acute founder issues (laminitis).

There's some other signs but they're more often found with bad laminitic founders - e.g. bulging soles in front of frog.
 
touchstone said:
Hi PS, my mare had slight sinking in one fore foot. She never showed any obvious laminitic signs, her pulses were normal she just went slightly and intermittently lame. Initially the vets were stumped, but x-rays showed the sinking, no rotation.

She was shod in heart bars initially and brought into work once, but now works well barefoot with no reoccurence.

Even if she has sunk, it doesn't mean pts. :)
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Thanks so much for this Touchstone . . . it's so nice to hear positive stories. Your mare's symptoms sound so much like my boy's . . . do you have any idea what triggered your girl's sinking/laminitis? How (aside from her being barefoot) do you manage her?

Thanks again.

P
 
Wagtail said:
the most obvious sign is the gross deviation in the front hoof wall. The hoof wall grows down from the hoof wall corium at the coronet, which is attached very strongly to the top part of the coffin bone and the wall should follow the straight front of the coffin bone. When the toe is left too long, with each step the front wall's being pulled away from the front of the coffin bone and so you get a mechanical rotation.

You might get a deep-ish groove running along the top of the hoof/coronet that you can run your finger along, as you can get your finger inside the P2/P3 joint because the joint's now more open than it should be. but this is more associated with acute founder issues (laminitis).

There's some other signs but they're more often found with bad laminitic founders - e.g. bulging soles in front of frog.
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Many thanks for this - I really appreciate it.

I have further questions that perhaps you or someone else can answer (seeing as it's 7.15 on a Friday and I probably can't get hold of my farrier ;)).

OK - his toes aren't that long and the angles don't look like that - will try and get some pictures tomorrow.

On the groove along the top of the hoof/coronet band, how deep is deepish? In a normal foot should there be any groove or none at all b/c I can feel a definite ridge on all four feet and I don't know what normal is . . . perhaps I need to use another liveries horse as a reference point.

I don't see any bulging in his soles - they are smooth as a baby's behind. I'm guessing that by the time bulging is visible in a horse's soles the pedal bone is quite far down in the hoof . . . is that right?

P
 
If there was bulging to the soles he'd be extremely reluctant to stand up let alone walk! :eek:

I'd go and feel some other feet but tbh I don't think it's that reliable. My vet's pony got lami (bless her heart, totally undeserved) and she felt what she thought was sinking round the coronary band on both front feet. On x ray one had rotation of something like 3 degrees and the other none at all so no way could she feel anything. And that was an experience horse vet who convinced herself she could feel it!
 
Our lami with a 13 and11.5 degree rotation only had two danalon a day for a month then down to one for a month....the vet said that he has horses with hardly any rotation on twice as much painkillers......he was broncing round his stable as if nothing was wrong.
X
 
Pulses maybe felt during the acute phase but they may drop down quite quickly but the damage is still ongoing:o Heat is absolutley no indciation of laminitis either - my mare is unshod and always has been and the temperature in her feet changes all time depending on excercise etc - all it really indicates is blood flow.

Whe you have the x-rays you need to show them to your farrier so he can trim appropriately. The rotation in the right fore of my cob was 5 degrees - anything over 5 degrees is more serious - her left was only 3 degrees. With careful management and farrier work she is now sound. My mare refused to have any bute after about 5 days but was still obviously in pain - but the bigger the horse the more it hurts as there is so much weight going through a small area. Each horse is different and will react differently but unitl you know for sure that laminitis and rotation can b ruled out keep treating as if its a possibility. O and mare had no obvious changes on her coronet band:o
 
Bugger - just catching up with your latest news (DH dragged me to pub as it was his turn to cook!)
The only sinker I had was years ago & it DID come right & was in heartbars for the rest of his life - a 14 yr old (then) 13h pony.
I've also had dealings with founder - and there is NO way yours sounds like that at all, he would not be doing anything like what you describe!

As the wise Jesstickle says, even a vet gets it wrong so you will have to wait till Monday (I sympathise, I hate waiting too & those 7 days waiting in early April for BF's scan was a right nightmare with me thinking that I had mis-diagnosed etc & it was such a relief to have everything confirmed - and that I was not a fool & had done the right thing!)

I prescribe a large glass of vino, no internet usage for research purposes but for forum chat only :)
Happy to pop over tomorrow early afternoon for bucking-up chat if you like as DH now at work all day :)
 
slightlyconfused said:
Our lami with a 13 and11.5 degree rotation only had two danalon a day for a month then down to one for a month....the vet said that he has horses with hardly any rotation on twice as much painkillers......he was broncing round his stable as if nothing was wrong.
X
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Oh good God! That's one stoic horse. Roll on Monday . . . sigh.

P
 
Slinkyunicorn said:
Pulses maybe felt during the acute phase but they may drop down quite quickly but the damage is still ongoing:o Heat is absolutley no indciation of laminitis either - my mare is unshod and always has been and the temperature in her feet changes all time depending on excercise etc - all it really indicates is blood flow.

Whe you have the x-rays you need to show them to your farrier so he can trim appropriately. The rotation in the right fore of my cob was 5 degrees - anything over 5 degrees is more serious - her left was only 3 degrees. With careful management and farrier work she is now sound. My mare refused to have any bute after about 5 days but was still obviously in pain - but the bigger the horse the more it hurts as there is so much weight going through a small area. Each horse is different and will react differently but unitl you know for sure that laminitis and rotation can b ruled out keep treating as if its a possibility. O and mare had no obvious changes on her coronet band:o
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Thanks (as always) Slinks. Thing is, he's not refusing the bute (he gets no choice, it gets syringed down his throat when he's on it) he just isn't showing signs of being uncomfortable unless trotted up and even then it's now minimal. He is perfectly willing to leave his stable, try and leg it to the field, paw the ground, walk and trot up with his usual exuberance . . . all with no bute in his system (because we ran out). Either he is way more stoic than I thought, or isn't in that much pain - which just plain baffles me.

Obviously, until we know for sure what it is or isn't, we will continue to treat as though it is lami (which is what I said in my original post) . . . I'm just mega-confused and all at sea at the moment.

Can't wait for those x-rays.

P
 
Don't let your guard down for a second. I can't tell you what's going on but our little pony mare was bucking about the place on Boxing Day and PTS Jan 3rd, in spite of lockdown and strict laminitis procedures. It really does depend on what caused the laminitis in the first place and removing THAT from the equation. Cushing's and EMS was behind our pony's problems, so we were never going to win :(

The 'dint' or depression is at the join between the leg and hoof. Put some pressure onto a finger run down the pastern and over the hoof. A laminitic pony will have a definite dip and hump across the join. A normal leg/hoof join will be pretty much 'flat' and your finger will run straight over the coronet and onto the hoof wall.

Also DO NOT move him off his deep bed or try to evaluate his degree of pain/lameness by trotting him about!
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Bugger - just catching up with your latest news (DH dragged me to pub as it was his turn to cook!)
The only sinker I had was years ago & it DID come right & was in heartbars for the rest of his life - a 14 yr old (then) 13h pony.
I've also had dealings with founder - and there is NO way yours sounds like that at all, he would not be doing anything like what you describe!

As the wise Jesstickle says, even a vet gets it wrong so you will have to wait till Monday (I sympathise, I hate waiting too & those 7 days waiting in early April for BF's scan was a right nightmare with me thinking that I had mis-diagnosed etc & it was such a relief to have everything confirmed - and that I was not a fool & had done the right thing!)

I prescribe a large glass of vino, no internet usage for research purposes but for forum chat only :)
Happy to pop over tomorrow early afternoon for bucking-up chat if you like as DH now at work all day :)
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Thanks TFF . . . as always you brought a smile to my face. Having a large glass (or several) of vino . . . now that the telly is back (hurrah) am using that as a distraction from excessive research - well that and HHO. Offer of buck-up visit very much appreciated but my own very dear H has committed us to social activities I can't wriggle out of (it means I actually have to de-horse and talk about something other than the merits of small versus large-holed haynets so I'm not too thrilled).

Enjoy your evening :) . . . and thanks again.

P x
 
Just as an aside - did your farrier come & look him over? (sorry if have missed this)
Mine is a mine of info with lami and likes working with vets to diagnose, perhaps yours does too?

Will await update on Monday & you go & enjoy social activities tomorrow :)
 
PolarSkye said:
Thanks so much for this Touchstone . . . it's so nice to hear positive stories. Your mare's symptoms sound so much like my boy's . . . do you have any idea what triggered your girl's sinking/laminitis? How (aside from her being barefoot) do you manage her?

Thanks again.

P
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Hi PS, she was slightly overweight and I'd done a lot of trotting on roads the week she went lame which I think was the trigger for her, as well as the summer grass.

I manage her simply by controlling diet, monitoring pulses as for a typical laminitic. It took a while for her to come completely sound, (months) and her lameness was very mild; but she has been fine ever since, there were no obvious changes to the external appearance of her hoof, but x rays gave us the clincher. We even did nerve blocks to check that the lameness was in her foot.

When I first heard the word 'sinker' I was devastated and imagined the worst case scenario, but controlling diet and keeping the feet regularly trimmed if they needed it has done the trick. :)

At least you'll know what is going on on Monday, it's half the battle when you know what you're dealing with.
 
brighteyes said:
Don't let your guard down for a second. I can't tell you what's going on but our little pony mare was bucking about the place on Boxing Day and PTS Jan 3rd, in spite of lockdown and strict laminitis procedures. It really does depend on what caused the laminitis in the first place and removing THAT from the equation. Cushing's and EMS was behind our pony's problems, so we were never going to win :(

The 'dint' or depression is at the join between the leg and hoof. Put some pressure onto a finger run down the pastern and over the hoof. A laminitic pony will have a definite dip and hump across the join. A normal leg/hoof join will be pretty much 'flat' and your finger will run straight over the coronet and onto the hoof wall.

Also DO NOT move him off his deep bed or try to evaluate his degree of pain/lameness by trotting him about!
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1) Dint . . . well in that case he's laminitic in all four feet b/c I can feel a slight change between the leg and hoof wall

2) Vet asked me to trot him up after the prescribed week in to ascertain if there was improvement once he was off bute. He isn't trotting about willy nilly.

I'm trying very hard to do the right thing . . . vet has given me a particular set of instructions . . . you guys have given me some great advice . . . but I do resent the tone of some posters implying that I am being cavalier about this. He's been out of his box a total of four times in the past 10 days . . . just to walk a short distance so I can get to grips with his bed - he is prone to thrush so I do want to make sure that what he's standing on is as dry and clean as possible. Vet says this is fine. Since we had the diagnosis, I've trotted him up once and vet did it today. Again, vet said it was fine . . . as did farrier. I have ordered x-rays to get to grips with what's going inside his feet.

I am soaking all of his hay as instructed - you have no idea how hard this has been given the political minefield that is my yard at times - backbiting, bitching and sniping beyond belief . . . people continually remove my soaking haynets and don't put them back in the water, or empty skips/bins, or moan at me for emptying the soaking trough and using water to rinse my nets . . . it's a battle every day and I am spending so much time at the yard just to make sure he his nets are properly soaked and rinsed.

I've cut out his hard feed (actually did that before the diagnosis because he was intermittently lame so wasn't working so I felt didn't need it), I've been stung and bitten and Lord knows what else picking endless bags of nettles.

Farrier has shown me how to make frog supports and both vet and farrier are happy with him being on a deep, clean straw bed with these supports - but it does mean that I'm mucking out once, skipping out twice and topping up his bed with clean straw three times a day.

I don't begrudge any of this, and I do appreciate all the advice and guidance offered to a laminitis newbie . . . but I am a little fed up of the inference that I am somehow deliberately not doing the right thing by my horse. I am doing my best and trying to navigate this strange new territory with the help and guidance of you guys, my farrier and my vet.

Rant over. I haven't taken my meds in several days (ran out - got some now), I haven't had any dinner yet (not hungry - too worried) and I didn't sleep well last night, so it's entirely possible that this rant is fuelled by me being over-emotional . . . but I felt it had to be said.

Scuttles off the kitchen to find something to eat . . . mood needs elevating.

P
 
touchstone said:
Hi PS, she was slightly overweight and I'd done a lot of trotting on roads the week she went lame which I think was the trigger for her, as well as the summer grass.

I manage her simply by controlling diet, monitoring pulses as for a typical laminitic. It took a while for her to come completely sound, (months) and her lameness was very mild; but she has been fine ever since, there were no obvious changes to the external appearance of her hoof, but x rays gave us the clincher. We even did nerve blocks to check that the lameness was in her foot.

When I first heard the word 'sinker' I was devastated and imagined the worst case scenario, but controlling diet and keeping the feet regularly trimmed if they needed it has done the trick. :)

At least you'll know what is going on on Monday, it's half the battle when you know what you're dealing with.
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Thanks for sharing your story . . . gives me hope (which is what I need right now). Any pics of your gorgeous girl?

P
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Just as an aside - did your farrier come & look him over? (sorry if have missed this)
Mine is a mine of info with lami and likes working with vets to diagnose, perhaps yours does too?

Will await update on Monday & you go & enjoy social activities tomorrow :)
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Hi TFF, yes he did . . . came this morning before vet and had another brief look the day after we got the initial diagnosis - he shoes half the yard so is up often and is very approachable/available . . . have already prepped him that I will be wanting him to take a look at the x-rays so he and vet can come up with a joint plan of action going forward. If he hadn't been willing to do this I'd be switching farriers.

The social activities I'm REALLY looking forward to are on Sunday when I'm taking our dog Daisy to a local dog show in Hartley Wintney . . . we figure she's a shoe-in for "waggiest tail" ;).

Have a great weekend.

P
 
Lol, Get yourself fed m'dear and have a nice glass of wine and take a deep breath! :D

The thing is you'll be worried, shattered and stressed to death over all which is understandable, when my mare was lame I was exactly the same and spent hours scouring the web and getting myself more confused and wound up about it.

Your best bet is to try to forget about it until Monday (easier said than done I know!) As long as you are following your vets instructions then there isn't anything else you can do and stressing about what it 'might' be isn't going to help you. (Says the biggest stresshead where her horses are concerned) ;)
 
PolarSkye said:
Thanks for sharing your story . . . gives me hope (which is what I need right now). Any pics of your gorgeous girl?

P
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I'm a total numpty on the laptop and don't have any pics uploaded to my shame :o I might be able to get my daughter to put some on for me when she gets in. I must get over being such a technophobe!
 
touchstone said:
Lol, Get yourself fed m'dear and have a nice glass of wine and take a deep breath! :D

The thing is you'll be worried, shattered and stressed to death over all which is understandable, when my mare was lame I was exactly the same and spent hours scouring the web and getting myself more confused and wound up about it.

Your best bet is to try to forget about it until Monday (easier said than done I know!) As long as you are following your vets instructions then there isn't anything else you can do and stressing about what it 'might' be isn't going to help you. (Says the biggest stresshead where her horses are concerned) ;)
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Thank you :).

P
 
Polarsky, he is normaly a wimp when it comes to pain so we were all shocked. When we had to start hand walking him we had to go out and by a chifney as he kept trying to rear (baring in mind this is a horse who will jump round raf halton but go into donkey mode when you put a novice on him) and when we started riding it was 10 mins in walk for a week then up by 5mins each week well by the time he got to the end of the first week he was trying to run round the school at a gallop doing a rearing start:o

The only time he was crippled during his 10 month box rest(the last 3months he was riding getting fit before he got back on grass) was when he had an abcess when he had his imprints on any as soon as they came off he was nearly sound.

He is back in full work, well apart from jumping as we cringe when he was going over a 2' x pole, riding out nearly every day for an hour.....he also has ems and is on metformin and that has made a huge difference to his energy.

Lots of hugs and let us know what the xrays say


P.s Thankyou Slinks for saying about the heat in feet, i wasnt sure how to word it. :D brain not working today.....
 
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