WOW Saddles=Your Opinions - Saddlers= Advice- Is my saddle really that bad???

coreteam1

coreteam1

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To cut a long story short, my boy was diagnosed with early degeneration of the meniscus in his stifles however after treatment he has vastly improved. However that didn't solve the problem of him reacting badly when I put his saddle on a couple of times (the reason he went to the vets in the first place) and me ending up in A&E after being given the all clear to start working him again (he bronked and I went head first into the floor)!

So off he went last week to Newmarket for back x-rays and bone scans...they found nothing. Which on one hand is good news but on the other hand, what is wrong with him? Can a saddle that was fitted by a master saddler have this much effect on a horse?

He has a physio coming out next week who's been recommended by the vets and she said it would seem unlikely that a saddle could have this kind of reaction? She is coming to treat him as he also has a sore rump area which I’m told is secondary to the stifle pain he was suffering with previously.
I am going to get a saddler out when he's had the physio to look at him. I want to make sure my saddle is fitting correctly etc. I know he's changed shape and grown since it was first fitted, however I have the saddle checked every year ( a different saddles though to the one who originally fitted it) and I'm hearing stories now regarding this second saddlers I had out and about how they re-flock saddles badly?

I'm finding that there is always someone who has a story (horror story concerning bad saddle fitting etc) about every saddle fitter I am recommended or am about to use? :eek:
I explained my situation to a member of the 'WOW' team at Your Horse Live and she was very helpful. Although I found the saddles Ugly looking (sorry but only my opinion :)) I did sit in a lovely dressage one which is approx £2000

Has anyone had any experience of a WOW saddle? Are they master saddlers on their team? Anyone know of any good saddlers in the midlands area??
 
Not sure about the WOW saddles or their team, however I think I would have been inclined to have the saddle checked as soon as you started getting a reaction when it's being put on.
Maybe ask your vet and physio for any recommendations they have for Saddlers in your area.
Hope the problem is sorted for you soon :-)
 
I would say that Wow saddles are like any other brand in that they fit some horses and not others. We have a couple of people on my yard who love theirs and their horses seem to go well in them. I got the same fitter out to try them on my boy and he refused to even move forward in them.

Again, fitters/saddlers vary too across the whole spectrum.

So find one that you like and trust and who is prepared to listen to you and spend time with your horse finding something suitable. It may take a little while.

I'm nervous of suggesting anyone as I'm not sure where you are and its not what you have specifically asked for. I have received great service from a couple of people in the last 3 years and would be happy to recommend them privately if you want to PM me. However both sell specific brands of saddles which may not be suitable for your horse

My boy was very demonstrative when unhappy with his old saddles as he keeps growing, now he has one that fits he is back to being a sweetie and producing some good work

Good Luck
 
I would wait and see what the physio says - it's rare that a saddle provokes such a sever reaction but it isn't unheard of. I would definitely have a second opinion of the saddle - whereabouts in the midlands are you? And if you do decide to go alternative there are lots of options - I personally don't like air and don't fit it; I know Wow do flocked saddles now, but don't feel that is your only option.
 
Lorna at the tack box in Lincoln would be highly recommended by me, I have her check my saddles on a variety of horses and have always been happy with the service.
 
sbloom said:
I would wait and see what the physio says - it's rare that a saddle provokes such a sever reaction but it isn't unheard of. I would definitely have a second opinion of the saddle - whereabouts in the midlands are you? And if you do decide to go alternative there are lots of options - I personally don't like air and don't fit it; I know Wow do flocked saddles now, but don't feel that is your only option.
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This exactly. My lad did exactly as you describe, complete bronc and put the person riding him in hospital. Vet check found nothing but physio found stiffness in his back, very subtle but there. My boy was just very sensitive and the saddle clearly found a sore bit on his back provoking the reaction.

Hope you get this sorted.
 
What sort of saddle is it? Does it have a changeable gullet system? If it does, I'd get a saddler to strip it down - known more than one horse react exactly as you describe when a screw has worked loose and fallen down inside the saddle, so it pricks the horse when you put the saddle on. Seems to occur when people change the gullets and don't use either loctite or nail varnish on the thread of the screw....
 
My boy has a simialr story to yours - poorly fitted Albion saddle done by master saddler resulted in horse in severe pain (my horse tolerated being ridden, but any contact with saddle area on the ground, grooming etc, resulted in a violent reaction)

Went to the AHT and underwent a full work up. £5000 worth of tests and drug trials later, inc all scans, high dose bute, gabapentin, list goes on...., and nothing appeared to be wrong with my horse. No physio/chiro etc would touch him due to his violent reaction. Treated and cured in the end by John the magic man (search on here for him) a week before he was due to be PTS as we'd come to the end of things we could do for him.

After that he was fitted with a WOW saddle and we never looked back. Started off in an extra narrow - a minus 1 headplate, as narrow as they go, and ended up in a 3, which is medium wide. Went better than ever. The fitter is the important part about the WOW saddle - get plenty of reviews on the fitter before you use them. The main WOW fitters down in Canterbury at the headquarters are all fab, but elsewhere I do believe are franchises so some a good and some not so! Some will be master saddlers and some not - so do a lot of snooping before you have them out

I'd make sure back is completely fine before getting new saddle though
 
some saddles (of surprisingly well known makes) are appalling finished inside - i've been shown them. rough edges overlapping, sharp tacks, etc. these can make sharp pressure points under the rider which transfer through the panels to the horse. i heard of a horse that was PTS and when they stripped the saddle later they found this kind of horror-story. :( :( :(
yes, a Master Saddle can sell and fit a crippling saddle. :( :(
i'd try him bareback. i've ridden a few former buckaroos bareback and never had one start it like that, oddly enough.
i'd try him in a totally different, absolutely trusted saddle, ideally with a prolite under it.
if you want the absolute expert on this sort of saddling problem, Kay Humphries is the best.
whereabouts are you, roughly? i have a totally totally trustworthy MW saddle you could try him in if you wanted.
as for WOW... hmmm, marmite, for some horses and some riders.
 
I'm really pleased with my WoW saddle, had always been a bit of a traditionalist but on trying it the difference it made to my boy's movement was so profound that I was convinced!

If you contact the head office they can give you details of who would cover your area - if you want to PM me with who they recommend I'll let you know if it is who I have used.
 
coreteam1 said:
Can a saddle that was fitted by a master saddler have this much effect on a horse?
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I think this is analogous to asking whether a qualified farrier can make a mess of a particular horse's feet.

I have a WOW for one of my horses. This particular gelding is very sensitive and he is clearly very happy with the feel of the flair. The things that I like about my WOW are:

a) Its component nature means that my boy can have the best panel and tree shape to fit him whilst I can have the seat and flaps that I want. Neither of us is making a compromise.

b) The cut away shape where the top of my thigh sits means I can ride a wide horse without feeling like the horse is wide. This is great for me as I am only 5"1' and have short legs!

c) The double stirrup bar means I can change where my stirrups hang depending on whether I am doing flat work or fast work.

d) The girthing arrangement is so flexible that I can always get the girth to sit in the girth groove if I use the saddle on a different horse.

The things I don't like are that the saddle is still heavy even though I have the lightweight seat and the saddles themselves are not particularly beautiful.

A good fitter is the crucial thing I would say, I have tried a couple and there is certainly a lot of difference between the two I used.

In your case I would try a WOW on your boy and lunge him first to see how he feels about the flair, I think horses treat flair a bit like marmite.
 
kerilli said:
some saddles (of surprisingly well known makes) are appalling finished inside - i've been shown them. rough edges overlapping, sharp tacks, etc. these can make sharp pressure points under the rider which transfer through the panels to the horse. i heard of a horse that was PTS and when they stripped the saddle later they found this kind of horror-story. :( :( :(
yes, a Master Saddle can sell and fit a crippling saddle. :( :(
i'd try him bareback. i've ridden a few former buckaroos bareback and never had one start it like that, oddly enough.
i'd try him in a totally different, absolutely trusted saddle, ideally with a prolite under it.
if you want the absolute expert on this sort of saddling problem, Kay Humphries is the best.
whereabouts are you, roughly? i have a totally totally trustworthy MW saddle you could try him in if you wanted.
as for WOW... hmmm, marmite, for some horses and some riders.
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I'm in Nottingham. His present saddle in an Ideal Suzanna. There are two of these makes but mine was the more expensive of the two makes ( think mine was approx £1300). I tried quite a few at the time, Albion and Bates but the Ideal was the best, at the time.
My boy was five when we had it fitten and is now rising ten, he's 17.1 ish and has definitely grown.
Not sure I dare get on him bare back after what happened, although I've ridden him bare back in the past without any fuss :)
Where is Kay Humphries based?
 
Kay's down Berkshire way i think but she travels all over, her tack shop is Norton and Newby if you wanted to contact her. she really is THE most amazing saddle-fitter i've ever met, totally in it for the horse's comfort and not for making ££s. i cannot rate her highly enough.
i have an Ideal Suzannah and really rate it, have had it on a few (2 of which would have told me if it wasn't to their liking). however, just because it's fine on 1 doesn't mean it's fine on another, obv.
if you decide to get her out, pm me, because i'd like her here too (i'm en route North for Notts!) and perhaps we could make her journey worthwhile?
 
stimpy said:
I think this is analogous to asking whether a qualified farrier can make a mess of a particular horse's feet.

b) The cut away shape where the top of my thigh sits means I can ride a wide horse without feeling like the horse is wide. This is great for me as I am only 5"1' and have short legs!


A good fitter is the crucial thing I would say, I have tried a couple and there is certainly a lot of difference between the two I used.

In your case I would try a WOW on your boy and lunge him first to see how he feels about the flair, I think horses treat flair a bit like marmite.
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Oh I definitely agree about your farrier comment :) but then get comments from the Physio that's coming out to him like ''oh, I doubt very much it's the saddle''
This is when I start to doubt it. There definitely has to be something and this is why he went to Newmarket. It's almost worse they didn't find anything.

I just want the saddle or physio to say ''oh yes, this saddle is an awful fit and this is why he was reacting this way'' but I don't think this is going to happen.

It's funny you say about your WOW allowing you to ride and not feel that the horse is wide. I'd not had a dressage saddle before my present one and since having this saddle I can only manage approx 20 minutes riding before getting hip pain, now I don't know if it's this saddle or my hips as I get older lol :D ???
I also feel the saddle forces my thigh and lower leg back, and although I didn't ride in the WOW (I just sat in it) I felt my leg was far more forward and in the correct position

It's also been mentioned about the flair only suiting some horse. Someone even said that the air warms up when it's on their backs and can acuse discomfort???? Surely not lol???
 
kerilli said:
Kay's down Berkshire way i think but she travels all over, her tack shop is Norton and Newby if you wanted to contact her. she really is THE most amazing saddle-fitter i've ever met, totally in it for the horse's comfort and not for making ££s. i cannot rate her highly enough.
i have an Ideal Suzannah and really rate it, have had it on a few (2 of which would have told me if it wasn't to their liking). however, just because it's fine on 1 doesn't mean it's fine on another, obv.
if you decide to get her out, pm me, because i'd like her here too (i'm en route North for Notts!) and perhaps we could make her journey worthwhile?
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I was talking to my trainer who also doesn't think his saddle would cause that kind of reaction. She trains with top dressage riders and she said they have a few good saddles which they use on all of their horses. In other words one saddle fits all type of theory.....Which is a bit like back in the days when we all rode ponies and they all shared the same saddle???

I think in all my time with horses I haven't 'personally' come across such an ill fitting saddle that the horse doesn't accept having it on and I think this is half 'my problem' if you see what I mean.

Someone on here compared it to a good farrier fitting bad shoes, now this I've come across so I can relate to it. It's just actually getting my head around the fact that a saddle which ''appears'' to look and feel ok (I've pressed it, rubbed it etc looking for obvious lumps etc :D) could cause so much pain?
Also the scary thing is, if it's not the saddle then just what is it??
 
hmm, a friend of mine is a Equine Sports Massage Therapist and you should hear what she has to say about Flair, Cair, and Wows. not a fan.
Air under pressure is HARD (think of a crisp packet when you squeeze it), not soft.
i know they suit some horses, but so do lots of things! the overlapping airbags, and the fact that they can move (1 other saddle make in particular is well known for this) are very off-putting.

to answer your last post - have you tried a totally different girth? i've had horses be v v uncomfy with a particular girth snagging or pinching (got bucked off on concrete once, not fun), perhaps a sheepskin covered girth might be the way to go. that and a prolite would be a good start imho.
i know what you mean about the 'a few saddles fit all' idea but that's when they are usually v similar types of horse...
 
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My horse jumps very very well in her wow saddle. i really like how close i feel to her. while doing flat work i use a ideal saddle which i also like.

Only thing i can say bad about the wow is that it is VERY heavy!


My horse is cold backed but has got better since having the wow.
 
coreteam1 said:
I just want the saddle or physio to say ''oh yes, this saddle is an awful fit and this is why he was reacting this way'' but I don't think this is going to happen.
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I totally understand. My thoroughbred turned into a monster one summer, started broncing and then doing proper stand up rearing with no warning, ie when walking along in the woods, and all I wanted was for someone to tell me what was happening. Long story but it turned out he had a sacro-illiac problem and he never came fully sound even after having the joint fused. He is now a happy field ornament :-)


coreteam1 said:
It's funny you say about your WOW allowing you to ride and not feel that the horse is wide. I'd not had a dressage saddle before my present one and since having this saddle I can only manage approx 20 minutes riding before getting hip pain, now I don't know if it's this saddle or my hips as I get older lol :D ???
I also feel the saddle forces my thigh and lower leg back, and although I didn't ride in the WOW (I just sat in it) I felt my leg was far more forward and in the correct position
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If your hip flexors are tight like mine, then having your leg forced back into the correct position in one go will hurt like hell. Another flexible thing about the WOW is that you can rotate the flaps forward and back to find the position that suits you. That way if your position is not optimal you can gradually train your leg into the right position over time.

coreteam1 said:
Someone even said that the air warms up when it's on their backs and can acuse discomfort???? Surely not lol???
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Thinking back about a hundred years to my A level physics I don't think this can be true. Sure if the air is warmed then the pressure will increase but IMO for the amount of air in the flair bags it would have to be super heated to cause discomfort through elevated pressure by which time the air bags would have melted anyway! But someone may prove me wrong.

It's never been a problem for me anyway :-)
 
Re. your hip position and feeling closer the horse - this is one of the things I love about my WoW dressage saddle - that I really feel I can get my legs close to his side due to it's shape and the fact that it's a mono-flap. I also started with the flaps in the forward position as I was not used to riding in a dressage saddle and found it difficult to maintain a still and correct leg position with them totally straight, now that my position is more secure and I have trained my muscles better I have moved the flaps backwards and I am very comfortable riding in this position with stirrups a hole longer.

Re. the weight - I find my saddle a lot lighter than my previous Albion

Re. the air pressure - I had previously been anti air or all descriptions but am converted after doing a bit of research and comparisons. The flair in my Wow is set at atmospheric so really soft and squishy, comparable to a recently wool flocked saddle and definately softer than one that needs doing. However I did look at the Cair system too (Bates saddles) and agree that they definately seem very hard.
 
This is spooky – I’ve had a very similar experience to you!

V v v briefly…horse collapsed at a competition and then went off the boil, not lame as such but not at all happy. Started stopping, then refusing to walk downhill. Got my saddle checked and adjusted by reputable saddler, horse still not happy. Anyway, the similarity is he went to Newmarket for a bonescan and they couldn’t find anything wrong with him.

I ended up getting a WOW saddle and the difference in him was instant. Much, much happier horse. My WOW fitter seemed to think that my conventional tree’d saddle was restricting his shoulder movement, whereas the WOW’s flex.

I don’t know whether or not the saddle was original cause of our issues, but it definitely made him a lot happier in his work.

As for me, I am a total convert…I find them incredibly comfortable and I’ve found the people at WOW to be extremely thorough and helpful (I am 30 mins away from their HQ). My saddle is particularly ‘un pretty’ as its old and tan coloured but I still love it!

Oh and when I first tried the WOW on my horse he literally threw himself around the stable grunting (has a tendency to overreact!) and had to be lunged first but once he’d got used to the different feel he was much happier.
 
Post about getting saddle stripped down would probably be a good idea. Dependant on which side of Nottingham you are on, I had Harriet Haivers (Newark) do the same to one of mine - think it cost about £50 - worth a go?
 
I have a wow and have had good experiences with it. So far I have used it on 3 very different horses (an extra narrow, high withered TB, a wide and round ISH and my current medium width TBx). All horses have liked the saddle and gone well in it and in particular my narrow TB who was difficult to fit a saddle to and had a sensitive back really improved. Having said that as others have said they don't suit every horse and a friend bought one for her horse and he hated it!

I don't find mine heavy although it is a newish one (approx 2 years old) and compared to other flair type systems it seems really soft on the underside and doesn't have that rock hard feel that some air saddles can have. The fitter I have used is excellent and takes a great deal of time to get things right but I am in the north west so probably no good for you.

Whatever you decide - good luck and I hope either way you and your horse find a saddle that is great for both of you!
 
All of mine are ridden in WOWs, got my first one in 2004 for my impossible to fit horse. I had really thought she would not go past elementary. Got her saddle in the May and in the August qualified for petplan finals at medium level. She has competed up to PSG and is currently on maternity leave, although she will be coming back under saddle afterwards.
My other mare got hers the following year, she was already well established at PSG/Inter I but the difference it made to her was quite dramatic. I could actually really sit to her extended trot for the first time ever as she was so much more relaxed through her back. She has sadly had to retire due to a severe SDFT injury but saddle has gone on to her daughter.

I have switched bits of mine over the years. The older lady's has the rounder shape tree and the other one has the flatter tree. Both of mine are XD seats now and I have the longer flaps with giant blocks - particularly useful on the youngster who is extremely athletic :rolleyes:

You are at the mercy of a good fitter - have heard some real horror stories. A friend of mine had someone out after trying mine & liking it. 'Fitter' put some bits together, put it at atmospheric pressure, plonked it on horse and left her try it. Did not even adjust the air! Thankfully mine is excellent, competes in dressage herself and is a trainer so knows what she is looking at. She can tell just watching how they move as to where the air needs to go, although she says best fit is achieved by working with a rider who has good feel. Sadly you are well out of her area.

My chiro was so impressed with them she now has them on all of her horses and has trained to fit them as well.
 
Nothing to add that hasn't already been said really, other than that my friend bought an Ideal Suzannah off the peg from Ideal through her saddler, and it was 'fitted'. After a few weeks, the horse started going downhill and continued to, and became sorer and more tight across the back - to cut a long story short it was practically crippling her horse - the knee block was higher one side than the other and flocking very uneven.
Lots of £££s and time off later, horse is going well in MTM serge panelled saddles.
 
I have a Wow saddle and love it. I've used it on a very wide ID x and my current narrow ish warmblood and both have liked it. I particuarly like a) the fact you can alter bits on it to fit different horses e.g. new panels and head plates (which makes the initial outlay less horrific) b) the fact there are no bits of tree over the shoulder, which I think has to make the horse feel freer.

Ditto that the air flocking should not be hard.. you can also puff them up to fit abnormalities in horses backs, my warmblood is 16 and has slightly different muscle formation on each side of his back due to a very old shoulder injury. In the Wow this can be evened out which makes him more comfy.
 
I used to ride a mare who had a WOW dressage saddle.
I also rode in the newer Jumping version.

I don't like them, just don't float my boat and didn't suit me as a rider.

ETA: I currently have an Ideal Jessica. LOVE it. Suits me down to the ground as a rider and has fitted my last mare and now my current mare.
It all depends on you and the horse. Its just as important to have a saddle that suits you aswell as the horse. Its amazing how our riding can be affected by a poorly fitting saddle for us, but a good fir for the horse. And how much our riding then effects the horse!
 
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The air may be at atmospheric pressure with no weight in the saddle but once you sit on it...it is a high pressure, pure and simple. Now air appears to work really well for some horses (and some riders, others feel it bounces), but in order to be airtight it has to be in a plastic bag, which is why you hear the very odd story of air flocking creating hot spots, as can gel pads.
 
I use wows and cair saddles (my stock saddles happen to be bates!)

Personally I don't think cair is hugely different to latex panels. However I prefer both over lumpy wool!

I've had some hard times with my wows, but find them extremely comfortable and have now found great fitters to help out

As I use stock saddles I also have thick western pads, so can use these to test if a saddle is at fault. I have had my stock saddle tested with and without a cavallo pad using an electronic system and the pads certainly do their job.

I think its worth trying a different saddle with your horse, as they cannot talk and their only way of expressing discomfort is through behaviour.

I think the argument about air being hard is a load of tosh, as why do they fit air in human trainers?? (see the Nike store!)

The one thing I do like about the wow's is the lateral flexion, a horse definitely moves it shoulders from side to side as it moves, and a fixed tree can only serve to inhibit this!
 
Trainers are designed to rebound which is entirely my point. If you start with a small beachball half inflated, and sit on it, is it still soft? As I say, some horses and riders love Flair but it is a fact that air in a saddle is under pressure.

From an automotive engineer ref air suspension:

How does an air spring work?

An air spring employs a flexible membrane to capture compressed air. The “spring” is the air, and an air spring takes advantage of the physical properties of air that allow it to be compressed. As the bag is compressed, the air pressure in the bag increases, forcing the bag to seek a return to its static height, or to “rebound”, similar to a steel spring.
 
coreteam1 said:
Can a saddle that was fitted by a master saddler have this much effect on a horse?
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A saddle fitted by anyone can have this much effect IMO. I have 2 that are very sensitive, one of which you've got about 5 seconds to get off before she'll put you off!

She particularly hates anything that touches she shoulders - not handy when 1st thing I have to do is ride down a steep drive. Most of all though, her biggest issue is with the girth. She very can't stand a tight girth (combined with the drive, very not handy!) and I have to be very careful on the type of girth, and makes sure it always has a 'fluffy' on it.

The best I've ever found for both of them is a Free n Easy saddle. Not conventional to look at, but made the difference of being rideable ponies, as opposed to field ornaments.

Get your physio to check underneath him around the girth area for any potential problems.
 
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