Writtle Futurity Results Published

I saw a very nice Legrande baby there yesterday, the Totilas knew he was beautiful too.

Generally a very high standard with a good spread of scores.

Lordship Stud at Writtle must be very proud. I think all their foals got a First, the majority being higher Firsts.
 
Why do horses that are through and through dressage bred get entered for the eventing sections? Im not talking just a dressage stallion wthh a TB mare ( that is fair enough) but dressage bloodlines throughout...how can they ever have the genetics to be good jumpers or eventers?! i know that there are rare exceptions to this rule but this is supposed to be a competition where you are assessing a horse for how much of a prospect its going to be for a particular sphere. For eventing, Would rather mark up a event/TB type horse over a dressage bred one. Youre taking such a gamble that are dressage bred horse is going to have the right technique, attitude and quickness for top level eventing. Is it that these horses are not going to be good enough for pure dressage so they just go into the eventing section instead?
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Why do horses that are through and through dressage bred get entered for the eventing sections? Im not talking just a dressage stallion wthh a TB mare ( that is fair enough) but dressage bloodlines throughout...how can they ever have the genetics to be good jumpers or eventers?! i know that there are rare exceptions to this rule but this is supposed to be a competition where you are assessing a horse for how much of a prospect its going to be for a particular sphere. For eventing, Would rather mark up a event/TB type horse over a dressage bred one. Youre taking such a gamble that are dressage bred horse is going to have the right technique, attitude and quickness for top level eventing. Is it that these horses are not going to be good enough for pure dressage so they just go into the eventing section instead?
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Some of these dressage horses actually have a decent pop in them & eventing has changed they have to do a decent dressage test & be able to showjump. If the foal can gallop then it can event & that will set it apart from the dressage or showjumping youngsters.

Mine has been bred to event but I am going to be hard pushed to show he can cover the ground as he is just too laid back!
 
I totally agree with Seabiscuit- why would you enter a dressage bred youngster in the eventing section? Presumably only because it doesn't move quite well enough to do the dressage section?!

These horses may well win at BE100 but they are surely not 4* prospects- ask any event rider what they want to be sat on coming out the startbox and it'll be something with guts and stamina.... the TB influence. A 4* horse doesn't have to have off-the-floor paces, it just needs to be odedient and correct in its way of going. A clear round over a 1.25 track is not hard to get at a 1 day but on the 3rd day of a major competition, that stamina and those guts set the TBs apart from the rest.

The futurity is falling way short of its brief if it's identifying dressage x dressage foals as potential elite event horses.
 
Re the above I have a dressage bred 3 year old who scored a higher first last year and I entered him in the Showjumping section this year. Couldn't see the point of coming back and doing dressage again and was interested to see how they'd score him for jumping. Has a nice jump but not an out and out sj technique and he was scored as such getting another higher first but with lower scores than last year. Mine will not be for sale, will be gelded and be my competition horse, if I was a commercial stud or seeking to sell would prob not have done it.
 
If the evaluators don't know the pedigree they can only judge the horse in front of them. So if it is presented as an eventer and looks a blood type with a good loose shoulder and is bold and can open up and cover the ground, then it will be judged as one. Personally I think until you see both the eventers and show jumpers operating over a fence as a minimum (at three) then its difficult to assess their top level potential
 
TheMule said:
I totally agree with Seabiscuit- why would you enter a dressage bred youngster in the eventing section? Presumably only because it doesn't move quite well enough to do the dressage section?!
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I think I would have to agree with you :D I find it hard to believe that a breeder at the beginning of the season sat down and said OK lets put x dressage stallion to y dressage mare as I would like to produce an eventer, one would have thought their initial plan was to produce a dressage horse!

The evaluators can only assess what is in front of them on the day and if a foal comes in with all the right attributes and was entered for the eventing section by its breeder, one would expect it to be of an eventing pedigree, or am I missing something?

I really hope that the eventing section of the futurity does not become the "not quite's" of the other disciplines. This is one of the reasons why I am 'on the fence' regarding the new format where the evaluators are not given the breeding of the youngsters during their assessment especially regarding the foals.

When we are breeding for a particular discipline the golden rule is and will always be 'bloodlines. I know there are exception to the rule, but they really are the exception surely.
 
I bred a hanoverian TB colt, was hoping to get a jumper, but the moment he was up and about he was just an eventer through and through. He is now as a 5yo sold and going eventing. They dont always come out quite how you hope they would! I think that they shouldnt even enter them as specific catagories before they are 3, let the judges decide on that as well, where they think they would fit the most, with comments accross the board. And no clue as to their breeding even when they are in the ring, until scores come through.
 
elijahasgal said:
I think that they shouldnt even enter them as specific catagories before they are 3, let the judges decide on that as well, where they think they would fit the most, with comments accross the board. And no clue as to their breeding even when they are in the ring, until scores come through.
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Couldn't agree more with you. Let them judge what is in front of them as an athlete first and foremost.
 
elijahasgal said:
I bred a hanoverian TB colt, was hoping to get a jumper, but the moment he was up and about he was just an eventer through and through.
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I too have bred for the show jumping arena and once the foal has arrived it looked to be more of an 'eventing' stamp. However, it is the 'unknown' and 'unproven' jumping ability of a dressage sire with a dressage mare that would suggest a breeder had not set out to produce an eventer. I am not an eventing person, so I really could be talking out the top of my head, but if I remember rightly eventers need to be able to jump (in two different disciplines) and yes I have heard the phrase, "eventing is won on the dressage scores now-a-days' but surely that is only if the horse also goes clear in two jumping phases.

I think the idea of assessing foals on their correctness, movement, attitude, athleticism, boldness, frame, type etc. etc. etc. would be a great idea. Perhaps the evaluators could then 'suggest' to the owner/breeder what category, in their opinion, they feel the foal should be entered into for future assessments.

I think it is far harder to assess the eventers and show jumpers as foals, yearling and two year olds because they do not actually see their jump until they are three. We all know that even the most well bred, super moving jump bred horse might not be born with the ability or have the heart to make it over a decent fence!
 
cruiseline said:
I too have bred for the show jumping arena and once the foal has arrived it looked to be more of an 'eventing' stamp. However, it is the 'unknown' and 'unproven' jumping ability of a dressage sire with a dressage mare that would suggest a breeder had not set out to produce an eventer. I am not an eventing person, so I really could be talking out the top of my head, but if I remember rightly eventers need to be able to jump (in two different disciplines) and yes I have heard the phrase, "eventing is won on the dressage scores now-a-days' but surely that is only if the horse also goes clear in two jumping phases.

I think the idea of assessing foals on their correctness, movement, attitude, athleticism, boldness, frame, type etc. etc. etc. would be a great idea. Perhaps the evaluators could then 'suggest' to the owner/breeder what category, in their opinion, they feel the foal should be entered into for future assessments.

I think it is far harder to assess the eventers and show jumpers as foals, yearling and two year olds because they do not actually see their jump until they are three. We all know that even the most well bred, super moving jump bred horse might not be born with the ability or have the heart to make it over a decent fence!
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Couldn't agree more with the last part of this
 
Eventers , dressage and show jumping horses have differing conformation traits in bio mechanical terms.
There is also the athletes ism to be taken into account.
I am greatly against the fact that assessors don't have the breeding info Infront of them as it does not directly influence the decisions but there are dressage lines that are highly unlikely to be good bold jumping types even though their build and type suggests they may , obviously the other part of the bloodline would have an influence too.( I looked at a horse recently ,not involved with futurity that I was told the bloodlines of and was asked if the breeder should aim it at show jumping or eventing, the breeding screamed eventing and when seen it was absolutely what the bloodline suggested.)
As a foal/ yearling/ two year olds the boldness the balance and the speed of movement have a great influence and it has long been something assessors are aware of that eventers are not to be 'failed' other categories .
The assessments are always about what is in front of the assessors on the day and regardless of the sometimes enthusiastic opinion that there is an ulterior motive in the way the assessments are reached this is not the case .
 
Partoow said:
Eventers , dressage and show jumping horses have differing conformation traits in bio mechanical terms.
There is also the athletes ism to be taken into account.
I am greatly against the fact that assessors don't have the breeding info Infront of them as it does not directly influence the decisions but there are dressage lines that are highly unlikely to be good bold jumping types even though their build and type suggests they may , obviously the other part of the bloodline would have an influence too.( I looked at a horse recently ,not involved with futurity that I was told the bloodlines of and was asked if the breeder should aim it at show jumping or eventing, the breeding screamed eventing and when seen it was absolutely what the bloodline suggested.)
As a foal/ yearling/ two year olds the boldness the balance and the speed of movement have a great influence and it has long been something assessors are aware of that eventers are not to be 'failed' other categories .
The assessments are always about what is in front of the assessors on the day and regardless of the sometimes enthusiastic opinion that there is an ulterior motive in the way the assessments are reached this is not the case .
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I really do feel for the evaluators, it quite often is a thankless task they are undertaking! It is easy to see if a youngster has "the boldness the balance and the speed of movement" that is why, for me the most consistent marks are those of the dressage youngster, but it is impossible (until they are 3) to actually know if they also have the jump!! A show jumper without a jump is no longer a show jumper and an eventer without a jump is no longer an eventer. Personally after thinking it through, I also feel that the evaluators should be aware of the youngsters breeding, after all it does have some bearing (although not all) on what that particular horse, 'should' be capable of in the future.
 
I have to say that, like Partoow, I do Not think that evuating youngsters without seeing the pedigree is a step forward for precicely the reasons she lists. It is interesting that after only two venues the Very reasons why the evaluators were always allowed to see the breeding in the past have been proven to be completely valid and -- bearing in mind both that jumping ability is definitely missing from some dressage lines (but not all of course) and that just because an animal.shows less knee action in trot and canter does not necessarily mean that it will have a long, low fast gallop as a mature horse
 
Sorry mobile probs again // -- it is good that non-evaluators are now also accepting that this reasoning is valid. Let us hope this experiment only lasts for one year. After all most of us on this forum would presumabl not buy a potential competition horse or brood mare or use a stallion without thoroughly examining its pedigree first for appropriate talent (however much we liked its phenotype) so why should we expect evaluators to do this (or have almost psychic powers of deduction) when we wouldn't?
 
The evaluators knowing the pedigrees has never been something that has worried me as think there are many other things that need ironing out first before a step like that. There will always be the exceptions to the rule with out and out jumping breds excelling at say dressage (see Chequille Z) and so on but I do agree that maybe a step in the right direction would be simply and open youngstock evaluation with no sphere put on the horse before entering and the evaluators giving a sportshorse score with a note as to the sphere they believe the foal, etc will be best suited to as they stand at time of evaluation for foals, yearlings and 2 yr olds. The biggest standout thing to me with the evaluation at the moment is the amount of very much dressage bred foals scoring highly as eventers. My worry with this is that these are lovely, elegant and flashy foals but which over the next few years will bulk out and develop into exactly what their breeding indicates - dressage horses...not eventers.
 
Ciss said:
Sorry mobile probs again // -- it is good that non-evaluators are now also accepting that this reasoning is valid. Let us hope this experiment only lasts for one year. After all most of us on this forum would presumabl not buy a potential competition horse or brood mare or use a stallion without thoroughly examining its pedigree first for appropriate talent (however much we liked its phenotype) so why should we expect evaluators to do this (or have almost psychic powers of deduction) when we wouldn't?
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I agree
 
eventrider23 said:
The evaluators knowing the pedigrees has never been something that has worried me as think there are many other things that need ironing out first before a step like that. There will always be the exceptions to the rule with out and out jumping breds excelling at say dressage (see Chequille Z) and so on but I do agree that maybe a step in the right direction would be simply and open youngstock evaluation with no sphere put on the horse before entering and the evaluators giving a sportshorse score with a note as to the sphere they believe the foal, etc will be best suited to as they stand at time of evaluation for foals, yearlings and 2 yr olds. The biggest standout thing to me with the evaluation at the moment is the amount of very much dressage bred foals scoring highly as eventers. My worry with this is that these are lovely, elegant and flashy foals but which over the next few years will bulk out and develop into exactly what their breeding indicates - dressage horses...not eventers.
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I also agree with this, but it is not the bulking out that worries me as quite a number of the dressage lines, if ridden in a different way would look very eventer like in their type, it is the lack of a proven jump that for me is the crunch.
 
cruiseline said:
I also agree with this, but it is not the bulking out that worries me as quite a number of the dressage lines, if ridden in a different way would look very eventer like in their type, it is the lack of a proven jump that for me is the crunch.
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Totally agree with this - I oversimplified in trying to be brief by saying it was simply the bulking out, etc - and i am in no way saying a pure dressage bred horse will not event well as there will always be one to defy the rule as well as I am certain the majority will event at lower levels, BUT to event at the level suggested by say an Elite premium I am positive that not only do you need the proven jumping ability but also the TB (and similar) quickness of brain and attitude and so on. It would be like asking a Shire horse to win at GP dressage or 4 star eventing - I am sure there will be some that will do well at it and in fact I know there have been some but there are the minority...not the rule.
 
I agree that the evaluators need to see the pedigree. A horse i sold as a 6year old went eventing and got 56 points in its first season including 2 CCI* back to back. He was bred for dressage but had jumping on the sire line as well as 4 generations back on the dam line. He missed out on Gatcombe because he had penalty points for being to quick. I have now bred his half sister to Comte a jumping stallion at Celle and the foal looks like having the speed and looks for eventing but if the judges cannot see the pedigree how can they make a prediction.
 
cruiseline said:
I too have bred for the show jumping arena and once the foal has arrived it looked to be more of an 'eventing' stamp. However, it is the 'unknown' and 'unproven' jumping ability of a dressage sire with a dressage mare that would suggest a breeder had not set out to produce an eventer. I am not an eventing person, so I really could be talking out the top of my head, but if I remember rightly eventers need to be able to jump (in two different disciplines) and yes I have heard the phrase, "eventing is won on the dressage scores now-a-days' but surely that is only if the horse also goes clear in two jumping phases.

I think the idea of assessing foals on their correctness, movement, attitude, athleticism, boldness, frame, type etc. etc. etc. would be a great idea. Perhaps the evaluators could then 'suggest' to the owner/breeder what category, in their opinion, they feel the foal should be entered into for future assessments.

I think it is far harder to assess the eventers and show jumpers as foals, yearling and two year olds because they do not actually see their jump until they are three. We all know that even the most well bred, super moving jump bred horse might not be born with the ability or have the heart to make it over a decent fence!
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My comments were based on using a dressage stallion on a mare (could be TB) to improve on movement & jump. Sponeck was a dressage stallion, but he actually scored well for his jumping & had a good jump on him. He could well have crossed well on a TB or blood mare to produce an eventer. In fact the 6yo has now shown an ability to clear a decent fence & he has always had a good gallop on him as seen at the TBF show.

Legrande has the movement for dressage but can also pop a fence, again on the right type of mare he could have offspring eventing. These may not be to 4*, but lets be honest how many of these youngsters are going to end up with producers good enough to bring on a 4* potential youngster.

The TB will continue to play an important roll, no question.
 
Ciss said:
I have to say that, like Partoow, I do Not think that evuating youngsters without seeing the pedigree is a step forward for precicely the reasons she lists. It is interesting that after only two venues the Very reasons why the evaluators were always allowed to see the breeding in the past have been proven to be completely valid and -- bearing in mind both that jumping ability is definitely missing from some dressage lines (but not all of course) and that just because an animal.shows less knee action in trot and canter does not necessarily mean that it will have a long, low fast gallop as a mature horse
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You know why I think it is a good idea for them not to know the breeding. It should put a stop to those winging that so & so got that mark because it is by so & so, etc. We know you can not please everyone, but it was getting silly reading some of the comments last year. It should also back up what is being said that the youngster is being judged on what is there in front of the evaluators.

I think though us humans just like to winge, someone will find fault no matter what is done.
 
Ciss said:
After all most of us on this forum would presumabl not buy a potential competition horse or brood mare or use a stallion without thoroughly examining its pedigree first for appropriate talent?
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I would and have bought horses with pedigrees that were not known to me, if he/she jumps, they jump, end of!! When I bought Caretino Glory 13 years ago, I'd certainly never heard of Chennook [he was a stressage horse!!] and Caretino was pretty much unheard of too!!
By the same token I've seen the best bred horses that can't jump out of their own way!
Jumpers and eventers should be loose schooled at 2 years for futurity she says running!!
 
Evaluators do need to look at pedigree .
Upper first premium awarded to Dales X Fell X Dressage warmblood.

In the event section.
Seriously ?!!
 
Can't quote as on phone but Seabiscuit2 the Dales X Fell explains a lot, saw that go and couldn't understand it's movement but hearing the m&m influence explains it, thanks. Judges were impressed by its gallop (I must have been distracted at that point and missed it, don't mean that sarcastically but was a bit excited and not taking everything in) and its quick thinking attitude. Don't think the vets were as impressed as the judges!
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Evaluators do need to look at pedigree .
Upper first premium awarded to Dales X Fell X Dressage warmblood.

In the event section.
Seriously ?!!
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I just wonder why the owners felt that event was the correct section for it, after all they entered it? Did they intend to breed an eventer, or did they use a dressage stallion and were somewhat surprised when an eventer was born? Were they advised by those who know better that it should be an eventer?
Would love to know the answers.
 
Who was that one? I know of a Dales x WB who was entered as a dressage sports pony but not an eventer. The sports pony was indeed nice and IMO deserved her score.
 
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