Wrong To Get Off?

[Barnacle]

If the horse will follow you when led, why won't it 'follow' your instruction when mounted??

I don't disagree with the broad sentiment. However, horses do not ride each other. They understand an individual in front of them as a "leader" intuitively. It's therefore a lot easier to make them understand that something is safe (if they are genuinely fearful) by leading them from in front. Just as you might put a more confident horse in front to lead a youngster through water or how a confident elder mare may do in the wild with her younger herdmates... The analogue to riding them forward is a stallion driving from behind. Equating "leadership" from the saddle with "leadership" from the ground is a very human thing to do but our understanding of "leadership" is as a very broad concept. For a horse obeying instructions/avoiding pressure from "behind" and following something they trust in front are not the same thing.

In time a horse can learn to trust the instructions... And of course you can spend a long time forcing the horse to go forwards and obey your instructions - which then means it learns to trust them through experience because nothing bad happens. But you might as well dismount, lead the way and teach them quickly (and not risk teaching fearfulness which can happen when a horse is pressured excessively in a situation where they do genuinely feel fear - and learned fear is much more difficult to "unlearn" than the instinctive kind).

Again though, I broadly agree with your sentiments and if a horse is napping out of habit, dismounting can be counter-productive to a degree. I think it's important to consider context (and the individual horse) though instead of painting every instance with a broad brush.

 

[TeamChaser]

Had to get off only yesterday. Have had this horse for 13 yrs, he's 19 now so pretty sure we're beyond the training and preparation stage! He can be a complete piss taker and inclined to lose all reason when he winds himself up. We'd been for blast up steep track in woods so he was bit on his toes and as we came past farm, little sheep right next to fence. He has no problem with sheep but I knew immediately he'd be a knob and give me a load of grief.

Could of stayed on board and fought with him for 20 mins but when he's whipping round, reversing at speed towards a big, open drain and knocking my poor other horse (who I'm leading) about all over the place, getting off seemed the more sensible option.

I'm certainly not windy (ridden babies at racing yards, hunt, team chase etc) but neither am I daft enough to risk injury to my horses or myself to prove a point .... which lets face it the horse won't get anyway!!!

 

[skint1]

My new horse had to have 10 days off work with a foot issue. First hack on his return we run into some crates full of racing pigeons. ALL the 3 horses stop, first horse gets ridden past, second horse (a relatively inexperienced youngster with a very experienced rider) gets lead past. Mine span for home a few times but thankfully didn't actually charge off, I feel more confident on the ground so dismounted, he REALLY didn't want to go past and gave a little rear. Thing is, the racing pigeon guys were on a schedule, they didn't have a lot of time to wait. He's 16yo but can be a bit of a fraidy cat, normally, even I, not the most capable or experienced of riders, have been able to get him past stuff which worries him but we've only known each other a couple of months so we're still learning about each other. I let him calm down for a bit and then led him a route where there were hedges between him and the scary pigeons, remounted and we got on with our ride.

I tried not to let it get to me, but it did. I felt like I had failed him by not showing strong leadership. I wondered if it would make his spooking worse, if he'd suddenly turn into a bolter or rearer and now I worry all the time that we will meet something scary and I won't be able to control him so we're working on it, I am trying to be a stronger leader, having lessons etc

But to be honest, I think if a rider has to get off for whatever reason that's probably what they should do, you can always remount and carry on in a more positive way, but just don't let it get in your head like I did.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Well all I can say is that you have to judge each situation individually and take into account the horse that you are riding, plus your own skills.

With the 'fly tipped fridge incident' I mentioned in my earlier post, it was round a blind bend, I knew there was traffic coming up behind me, so for cars to come round the bend to find a horse dancing about in the middle of the road would be very dangerous. I knew that she was not going to go past it without a wide berth (again not safe due to the blind bend), so I hopped off and lead her by it, with me next to the fridge which meant that we kept close to the curb.

With this horse, she's great in traffic and with normal objects (and some unusual ones too, she was OK with a steam engine), but there are a few things that she doesn't seem to cope with. One is new fly tipping. It's fine if she's seen it before, but the first time causes her to be worried. I know that if I hop off, she is fine.

 

[Tern]

Out of interest... those in the make them go through it camp what would your view be if you were on a busier road with cars coming past and your horse is threatening to rear?

I don't think it's as straight forward as saying you'd never get off, there's always going to be a time when it's safer to stay on or safer to get off.

If it's threatening to rear the horse's head goes to my leg, if it does rear it will get a smack on the ass that it will feel. Rearing is unacceptable and dangerous whatever the situation. And yes, I speak from experience. It can spin/plant all it wants and it won't get told off.. just reassured but rearing it will get told off.

I'm a bit stupid though.. in the sense that I will get on anything and everything.

 

[EQUIDAE]

If it's threatening to rear the horse's head goes to my leg, if it does rear it will get a smack on the ass that it will feel. Rearing is unacceptable and dangerous whatever the situation. And yes, I speak from experience. It can spin/plant all it wants and it won't get told off.. just reassured but rearing it will get told off.

I had a horse like that in for rebacking - poorly healed fracture of the pelvis, kissing spines, healed fracture above the eye socket and poll damage. Poor thing reared due to pain but her owner just wouldn't believe me that she wasn't doing it just because she was naughty. Eventually 2 years down the line she was sold on as she was unmanageable and within 3 months the new owners had to have her PTS as she wasn't even field sound. That poor horse suffered for two years because someone thought it better to ride her through the rear, rather the find out why. She totally changed the way I look at horses...

 

[Tern]

I had a horse like that in for rebacking - poorly healed fracture of the pelvis, kissing spines, healed fracture above the eye socket and poll damage. Poor thing reared due to pain but her owner just wouldn't believe me that she wasn't doing it just because she was naughty. Eventually 2 years down the line she was sold on as she was unmanageable and within 3 months the new owners had to have her PTS as she wasn't even field sound. That poor horse suffered for two years because someone thought it better to ride her through the rear, rather the find out why. She totally changed the way I look at horses...

There is a difference between a pain rear and a rear that the horse is doing because it doesn't like the fact you've pushed it to go through a puddle in my opinion.

Usually if a smack doesn't sort it and the horse is a continual rearer then health checks would be done as continual rearing is not normal?

 

[minesadouble]

I too am in the stay on board at all costs camp. I started riding over 40 years ago and it was drummed into you hard in that era that you stayed on no matter what!
I have one exception and that is that if I was on a busy road and in a battle then safety and not invonveniencing other road users must come first.
However if you are out of your comfort zone with a horse then getting off and leading past is far more preferable than turning around and going home - that is how nappers are created. It's your horse and you must ride it in a way you are comfortable with.
The one thing I wouldn't do is 'stop and let it look'. All of my horses/ponies are taught that if they are being asked to go forward then they must go forward no matter what. I do feel that allowing a horse to stop and look exacerbates spookiness.

 

[Moomin1]

IMO the whole 'if you get off the horse thinks it's won' analogy is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (almost). Horses do not think like that whatsoever, and so long as the horse HAS gone past whatever it was that it didn't like, then the 'battle' has been won, whether a human was on board or on the ground leading.

And to be honest, it's all very well those who say they would stay on at any cost, if you feel comfortable with the risk, then that's up to you, but those who have more self preservation/feel less inclined to risk their safety shouldn't be berated for that at all.

 

[[100323]]

I agree that having a battle with a horse on a road can be dangerous, some drivers are too impatient, or drive too fast. Getting the horse past quickly and safely by leading it is a lot safer, he is still going forward, and gone past the hazard. He has done what was asked, maybe not quite the way you wanted, but he did it. Turning back and riding or leading away from the hazard will teach him to play up. Having a battle of wills off road is a different matter, and a lot safer.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Unlike your fellow livery, your horse does not view it as "winning" v. "losing."

No, but it may well remember that the last time it didn't want to do something and exhibited certain behaviours the rider got off . . .

And that she had to go forward as asked and then the rider got back on.

I do not understand the school of thought that says the rider should stay on top at all costs. Nappy horses do not do it to get the rider off. If horses want the rider off they buck, or go over backwards. Nappy horses are either frightened of something or have just decided that they don't want to go forward. If the rider dismounts and leads the horse forwards, surely the rider has 'won' - if we must look at it like that. Yes where possible, it is best to lead the horse backwards and forwards several times and then mount again and ride past but that isn't always possible, e.g. in traffic.

I can only surmise that the opinionated livery in OP feels that actually her horse doesn't enjoy being ridden and wants to get the rider off at any/every opportunity, as if every ride is a battle to be won.
While I expect that OP's mare will develop a trusting relationship with her rider and want to do things together.

 

[NZJenny]

Ignore them. I will get off and lead if I feel unsafe. I'm not a ballsy rider and I'm too old to be worried about trying to prove anything.

I am currently riding a very young horse who is learning to hack out - she is certainly not my first. I have always just quietly dismounted and led them on, when things turn to custard when I'm out and all my horses have turned out happy, well adjusted hackers (and endurance horses).

Once I am confident with a horse, then yes, I am less likely to dismount. It's quite an organic process - confidence for both of us takes time, and as with most things equine, it takes as long as it takes.

 

[Goldenstar]

IMO the whole 'if you get off the horse thinks it's won' analogy is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (almost). Horses do not think like that whatsoever, and so long as the horse HAS gone past whatever it was that it didn't like, then the 'battle' has been won, whether a human was on board or on the ground leading.


And to be honest, it's all very well those who say they would stay on at any cost, if you feel comfortable with the risk, then that's up to you, but those who have more self preservation/feel less inclined to risk their safety shouldn't be berated for that at all.

No one has berated any one for getting off
Made judgements perhaps about people sense of self preservation because we choose to stay on our horses yes but no ones berated any one for getting off .
I don't have issues because I train my horses to always succeed they don't spook and refuse to go places because I have trained them not to do so .
And I always when the horse is young or inexperianced set them up to succeed .
Then you never have an issue , if the police can train horses to do their job it's not that difficult to train horses to hack about the place without having to get off them .

 

[Fidgety]

I let him calm down for a bit and then led him a route where there were hedges between him and the scary pigeons, remounted and we got on with our ride.

I tried not to let it get to me, but it did. I felt like I had failed him by not showing strong leadership. I wondered if it would make his spooking worse, if he'd suddenly turn into a bolter or rearer and now I worry all the time that we will meet something scary and I won't be able to control him so we're working on it, I am trying to be a stronger leader, having lessons etc

But to be honest, I think if a rider has to get off for whatever reason that's probably what they should do, you can always remount and carry on in a more positive way, but just don't let it get in your head like I did.

But you *did* show strong leadership - you lead a safe path and he followed .

Agree totally, you do what's best for the situation and the individual personalities (human and equine) involved. The main thing is that it's a positive and confidence boosting outcome for all.

 

[skint1]

Fidgety, thank you so much, I never thought of it like that! We were away from our friends on the other side of that hedge for quite a while and he happily followed me until I found a suitable ditch to stand him in to re-mount and re-join our friends. My confidence has really taken a knock since the pigeon incident, but you've given me a different way to look at it. Thank you.

 

[tallyho!]

Not at all. You have to do it with young horses just starting out. I did at first and very rarely have to do it nowadays.

You know....... unless it's bin day. I don't like being put in a hedge so it's much more civilised to walk past the fester buckets than put more holes in my jods. I get on when we're past and carry on.

 

[Marchogaeth]

Of course it's up to you what you do! She's your horse and you know your own capabilities etc.
I personally would not have got off in such a situation, simply because I feel horses don't need to learn that there is something to worry about and that should they become scared they require a person to lead them passed. I would much rather ride them on and show them there's nothing to worry about, and that if they do react to something around them I'm not going to make an issue of it, instead we're going to carry on as normal.
I suppose it's just my perspective though

 

[Dry Rot]

No not wrong. I think I would have made her go past a few times led then got on and ridden her past but it's easy to say that sat on my arse in the office!!

This ^^^^. Also to sitting on arse!

It's not about winning or losing or point scoring but desensitising the horse to scary situations. And it needs to be done slowly, patiently, again and again, until the horse has got over it's fear. Any form of rough treatment merely confirms to the horse that there is something to fear.

Yes, if it is an emergency situation, you do what you have to do to resolve the issue, but that has nothing much to do with training though it can make for a long time cure, but could just as easily go the other way.

 

[MochaDun]

I get off when it's something he's really scared of - I have to be careful on narrow tracks/areas these days where it's a bike coming towards us that I have to get to stop (he was hit by a cyclist coming towards him a few years ago) and he seems fine then for me to lead and be between him and it. If there's enough space even on a normal road lane he is fine though. Also as we ride in quite a suburban area and on some tracks/paths we can also meet those bikes with kids carts attached behind or people with pushchairs I also always ask them to stop and get off too then and lead if narrow just to be doubly sure for their sake as much as ours. He seems almost reassured when I do this. Also when we had a dead supperating stinking deer carcass hidden in a hedge someone else I was hacking with and I really struggled to get either horse to go past as they could smell it long before we could see it so I leapt off and lead and we were then both fine. I have no problem with it just so long as I can get back on again - which I normally can as he's 14.1hh and so I can get back on from the ground if I have to. Otherwise on board if he's being silly (and I find you can tell the difference between real fear and being a bit silly over something) I will stay on and get him past.

 

[HighFive]

Safety first. New horse, you don't know what she's capable of. However, me personally, I don't get off. It would have to be an extreme reaction or situation (like napping on a road) for me to hop off. If a horse is resisting my leg that much, I want to turn it into a little school and show them it's not worth the battle. I don't mean beat the horse up, it's an opportunity to reinforce to the horse that go means go in any situation. I have a friend who used to hop off and lead her horse home because the horse has got a little hot when spooking. Horse developed an interesting reaction to scary things, it knew exactly what response it had to give in order to have the rider scrambling off! I doubt in your case, doing it once will cause any issues. I'd probably do a little in hand desensitising to have a good look at what her 'spook' response escalates to when under pressure.

 

[wench]

Depends on the horse. I have had one who was a total lamb to lead past anything scary on the ground, and one that is better if you are on board.

My opinion is that if you are worried/nervous you are best off not on the horse. If it decides to leg it only one of you is likely to get injured.

 

[Moomin1]

No one has berated any one for getting off
Made judgements perhaps about people sense of self preservation because we choose to stay on our horses yes but no ones berated any one for getting off .
I don't have issues because I train my horses to always succeed they don't spook and refuse to go places because I have trained them not to do so .
And I always when the horse is young or inexperianced set them up to succeed .
Then you never have an issue , if the police can train horses to do their job it's not that difficult to train horses to hack about the place without having to get off them .

You clearly don't remember what OP says about the other livery who said she was wrong for getting off...

You do appear to be a guru on horse training GS. I do admire you.

PS...I assume you do realise that the police horse selection is extremely strict and rigorous, and quite a few actually get chucked out of training for not being suitable (the horses that is)?

 

[Nancykitt]

Yesterday we were hacking out and my pony took exception to a large tarpaulin that had blown into a field we were passing.
The other horses spooked and my pony tensed up very badly...he was genuinely scared.
I just felt unsafe. So I got off, led him over to the offending article, talked to him and then got back on.
On the way back he walked past the scary thing perfectly.
How is that 'letting him win'? I got on and we completed our hack. We were only yards from home - if I'd allowed him to go home that may have counted as 'letting him win', but the pony really was scared. He isn't scared of the item any more. And my (fragile) confidence is maintained. It's a win/win.
OP, you will ride past with no trouble. Your actions were entirely sensible.

 

[Goldenstar]

You clearly don't remember what OP says about the other livery who said she was wrong for getting off...

You do appear to be a guru on horse training GS. I do admire you.

PS...I assume you do realise that the police horse selection is extremely strict and rigorous, and quite a few actually get chucked out of training for not being suitable (the horses that is)?

Of corse I do a friend runs a police stables .
I do remember and have said twice hat OP was right to do what she fely was best for her .
However that's not the same as saying that I think it's necessary to get off a horse in such situations because I don't .
It's unnecessary if you approach training in a structured way and never set the horse up to fail .
That's what I think and that's what I do and I have five ( and many I the past )very well adjusted ( well ones a bit alternative ) horses all very different that we can hack where we want.

 

[tallyho!]

Depends on the horse. I have had one who was a total lamb to lead past anything scary on the ground, and one that is better if you are on board.

My opinion is that if you are worried/nervous you are best off not on the horse. If it decides to leg it only one of you is likely to get injured.

I agree, I think it totally depends what you're sitting on.