WWYD - A flyball personality clash

[DabDab]

I've recently had a minor issue crop up with my youngest dog and would appreciate the collective's advice on best way to overcome or manage it.

Dog is a 2yo JRT x Pom so as you can imagine is prone to an opinion or two, but is generally well behaved and has been extensively socialised with other dogs and never shown any reaction beyond wanting to play. A few months ago I started doing flyball with her, which she is pretty good at and from the off has always been very attentive to me and the task in hand, has never been distracted by the other dogs and has never tried to leave the lane when on task (even at the beginning when she didn't really know what she was doing).

However, a couple of weeks ago a new collie started that is slightly reactive. The owner is lovely and very responsible and this collie only seems put out by about half the dogs, but the ones that it doesn't like it will sort of sniff hello and then snap at them (usually just once and it isn't going to bite, it's just a standard collie snap). And this is how it went with my dog Phoebe, except that it also added in a bit of a snarl with her, but in any case I just pulled her away (everyone is on leads) and thought nothing more of it. For the rest of that session Phoebe kept looking at this collie and occasionally barking at it, like she was really quite offended that it didn't like her.

It came around to the next session and obviously this time I did not let Phoebe say hello to the new collie and just carried on as usual, but she had clocked this dog and kept glancing over at it. Then when we were doing the first bit of box work the collie and its owner came and stood up alongside the box, a couple of meters away from it. Phoebe did what she has never done and ignored the ball, turned left at the box and went to have a scrap with this collie instead. There was no biting, just snapping and noise and she came away as I shouted at her, so engagement in this silliness was only a matter of seconds, but I am still slightly mortified that she did it.

After this we gave her a bit of a rime out and then she was her usual brilliant, focused self for the rest of the session while doing stuff. But while waiting in between runs she was clearly more on edge than usual and was intermittently barking at that collie despite me keeping her well out of the way and her being able to generally mill about with a kelpie and her whippet friend.

So WWYD? As I said, owner of the collie seems very nice and it is a 'training' type environment so I'm sure doing some specific training would be possible. But the question is what? Have them sit next to each other and get treats? Just stay well out of each others way? Let them greet very briefly each time and then move on? Give praise/treats for non-reactive greetings?

All thoughts and ideas welcome

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I've recently had a minor issue crop up with my youngest dog and would appreciate the collective's advice on best way to overcome or manage it.

Dog is a 2yo JRT x Pom so as you can imagine is prone to an opinion or two, but is generally well behaved and has been extensively socialised with other dogs and never shown any reaction beyond wanting to play. A few months ago I started doing flyball with her, which she is pretty good at and from the off has always been very attentive to me and the task in hand, has never been distracted by the other dogs and has never tried to leave the lane when on task (even at the beginning when she didn't really know what she was doing).

However, a couple of weeks ago a new collie started that is slightly reactive. The owner is lovely and very responsible and this collie only seems put out by about half the dogs, but the ones that it doesn't like it will sort of sniff hello and then snap at them (usually just once and it isn't going to bite, it's just a standard collie snap). And this is how it went with my dog Phoebe, except that it also added in a bit of a snarl with her, but in any case I just pulled her away (everyone is on leads) and thought nothing more of it. For the rest of that session Phoebe kept looking at this collie and occasionally barking at it, like she was really quite offended that it didn't like her.

It came around to the next session and obviously this time I did not let Phoebe say hello to the new collie and just carried on as usual, but she had clocked this dog and kept glancing over at it. Then when we were doing the first bit of box work the collie and its owner came and stood up alongside the box, a couple of meters away from it. Phoebe did what she has never done and ignored the ball, turned left at the box and went to have a scrap with this collie instead. There was no biting, just snapping and noise and she came away as I shouted at her, so engagement in this silliness was only a matter of seconds, but I am still slightly mortified that she did it.

After this we gave her a bit of a rime out and then she was her usual brilliant, focused self for the rest of the session while doing stuff. But while waiting in between runs she was clearly more on edge than usual and was intermittently barking at that collie despite me keeping her well out of the way and her being able to generally mill about with a kelpie and her whippet friend.

So WWYD? As I said, owner of the collie seems very nice and it is a 'training' type environment so I'm sure doing some specific training would be possible. But the question is what? Have them sit next to each other and get treats? Just stay well out of each others way? Let them greet very briefly each time and then move on? Give praise/treats for non-reactive greetings?

All thoughts and ideas welcome

Hmmm hard one but this is why I don’t do sniffs with my dogs to other peoples dogs that aren’t close friends. We were told to not allow our dogs any negative interactions with other dogs until they are about 2/2.5 to try to avoid the aggression issues you are now having. Was hard when our Gordons just wanted to play with everything and the spaniels were as crazy as they were.

If it were my dog I’d be speaking to an actual trainer as clearly this has knocked your dogs confidence and may take a good while to come right. Such a shame but I’m sure with the right techniques and time she will come good again

 

[skinnydipper]

My first thoughts, this is defensive aggression. She is not being brave or bold, she is frightened, she doesn't feel safe.

I wouldn't make her sit next to it for treats.

Keep your distance, keep her under threshold.

ETA. Keep her at a distance where she feels comfortable. When you see her glance at the dog and there is no sign of her being upset, change in her body language, reward her. You have to be careful what you are rewarding for.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm in the pet owner category, I haven't ever trained for any competitive activities with any of our dogs, but being on our 4th JRT I'd say never underestimate a JRT's capabilities for bearing a permanent grudge.

I'm with your dog on this re the rude collie, I think, I wouldn't trust it ever again either.

 

[Spotherisk]

Oh I’ve had this with my lurcher in agility gaining, he took major offence to another dog. I tried to keep myself relaxed and unworried, trained with treats to keep his focus on me. My biggest thing has to be very aware of when the other dog will be moved etc, and to be ahead of the game. Tolerance has improved with time, and outdoors at a show they have walked on lead fairly close to one another, but this winter when we are training indoors again I expect it to have regressed somewhat.

 

[skinnydipper]

However, a couple of weeks ago a new collie started that is slightly reactive. The owner is lovely and very responsible and this collie only seems put out by about half the dogs, but the ones that it doesn't like it will sort of sniff hello and then snap at them (usually just once and it isn't going to bite, it's just a standard collie snap). And this is how it went with my dog Phoebe, except that it also added in a bit of a snarl with her,

The owner of the collie needs to stop allowing her dog to do this, it isn’t fair to other dogs and owners.

She should seek help with regard to behavioural modification for her dog.

 

[DabDab]

Hmmm hard one but this is why I don’t do sniffs with my dogs to other peoples dogs that aren’t close friends. We were told to not allow our dogs any negative interactions with other dogs until they are about 2/2.5 to try to avoid the aggression issues you are now having. Was hard when our Gordons just wanted to play with everything and the spaniels were as crazy as they were.

If it were my dog I’d be speaking to an actual trainer as clearly this has knocked your dogs confidence and may take a good while to come right. Such a shame but I’m sure with the right techniques and time she will come good again

Yeah, I mean she's 2.5 and hasn't had any negative interactions that I'm aware of up until now, and still seems fine with other dogs, but I fully expect her to still be concerned about this particular dog next training session

My first thoughts, this is defensive aggression. She is not being brave or bold, she is frightened, she doesn't feel safe.

I wouldn't make her sit next to it for treats.

Keep your distance, keep her under threshold.

ETA. Keep her at a distance where she feels comfortable. When you see her glance at the dog and there is no sign of her being upset, change in her body language, reward her. You have to be careful what you are rewarding for.

Thanks, yes I think you're right, probably best to just keep her away from this particular dog, as awkward as that is in a close training environment and give her a safe space to exist in again. I'll try to have a word with the collie owner at the start of the next session and ask if we can work out how to keep our dogs out of the other's immediate attention when doing runs.

Rewards for general relaxation are a good idea, I will tentatively start looking for good reward opportunities next session.

I'm in the pet owner category, I haven't ever trained for any competitive activities with any of our dogs, but being on our 4th JRT I'd say never underestimate a JRT's capabilities for bearing a permanent grudge.

I'm with your dog on this re the rude collie, I think, I wouldn't trust it ever again either.

This is exactly it...for the first time in her life a dog has been unfriendly towards her and it has clearly made her feel quite uncomfortable and has now got a bit of the jrt won't let it go thing going on.

Oh I’ve had this with my lurcher in agility gaining, he took major offence to another dog. I tried to keep myself relaxed and unworried, trained with treats to keep his focus on me. My biggest thing has to be very aware of when the other dog will be moved etc, and to be ahead of the game. Tolerance has improved with time, and outdoors at a show they have walked on lead fairly close to one another, but this winter when we are training indoors again I expect it to have regressed somewhat.

This is the thing, with people moving around, doing runs, working on their own bits of training, all in quite a confined (indoor) space it becomes quite difficult to stay out of the way. I ended up hiding in the corner yesterday

 

[Nasicus]

The owner of the collie needs to stop allowing her dog to do this, it isn’t fair to other dogs and owners.

She should seek help with regard to behavioural modification for her dog.

Agreed. If she knows her dog is going to do this, then she needs to keep it separate from other dogs. It's unfair to other dogs and owners her to be rolling the dice on whether her dog will be nice or nasty, and as you're finding out she's put you in a position where her dogs actions have really upset your dog.

Make sure she keeps her dog away from yours, no standing near the box etc.

 

[Moobli]

The owner of the collie needs to stop allowing her dog to do this, it isn’t fair to other dogs and owners.

She should seek help with regard to behavioural modification for her dog.

My collie sounds similar to this one. We recently started agility training. I told the other owners she could be snappy and I keep her focus on me. I don’t want her saying hello to the other dogs (and practising her snapping) so don’t allow it.
It sounds like other dogs in the OP are approaching the collie rather than the other way around (forgive me if that’s wrong OP) so I don’t see it as the collie’s issue tbh.
In the OP position I’d work on getting the JR’s focus away from the collie and on to the owner through play and reward while waiting on lead. While practising a run, I’d ask the collie owner if they’d mind just moving away so the JRT can’t hone in on it.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Flyball is 100% the wrong place for any reactive dog. It's such an unnatural environment ( dogs running straight towards each other at the change over etc) plus you see so many dogs over threshold. I would keep your dog as far away from that collie as you can and to be honest I would give your dog a few weeks off training to chill out and just meet nice dogs, then go back making sure you avoid the collie. The collie owner needs to find a good behaviourist.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The Collie owner might be lovely, but I disagree about her being responsible, when she knows how her dog is, and still allows it to say Hello to other dogs while being on the leash, that's irresponsible, period.

Regardless whether your Phoebe now feels insecure around/offended of/carries a grudge towards that Collie, or a mix of those things, I think you will sadly now have to shift your focus during the flyball training to be less about the flyball training, and more about rewarding Phoebe for being relaxed, and/or focusing on you and the training whilst ignoring the Collie.
Next time you notice that Phoebe keeps glancing towards the Collie at a training, step in, and try to redirect her focus towards you, and the training.

In an ideal world I would've expected that after her dog not only snapped without also snarled towards Phoebe during their first training session together, the Collie owner would've had the sense to not go and stand only metres away from the ball box when Phoebe was going to run to it at their next training session. But obviously she didn't think about that.
So now you know that it is up to you to make sure she doesn't unintentionally set Phoebe up to fail like that again. If you see her + Collie close to the ball box when it's Phoebe's turn, ask her to move, or let someone else run before you so she maybe have to go to continue her own training, or if there's several ball boxes, move yours so Phoebe can't see the Collie...

In one way, you've been lucky Phoebe has been so focused on what to do ever since the start, even when she didn't know what flyball was about. On the other hand, it really sucks that Phoebe lost some of her focus because of the owner to that Collie who randomly shows it doesn't like so or so dog.

 

[blackcob]

Face to face on-lead greetings are seldom a good idea and even less so in a training environment where dogs are often ramped up and the adrenaline is flowing. YMMV with this but I am also of the opinion that a dog not currently working should be out of the ring (or whatever the flyball equivalent is) while the others work, because why invite trouble if you don't have to, so parking the collie right next to the box strikes me as a daft choice even if it weren't reactive. I would stay out of each others way and don't be afraid to kindly but firmly advocate for your dog by asking them to move back when needed.

 

[SusieT]

The barking is a sign she is unhappy, so I would take steps to remove her from that space and work up to what is comfortable.
She's clearly worried by the collie . So this might mean them being out of sight ( a barrier perhaps?) and gradually working up to walking past etc. Speak to the class trainer - you do NOT want this to escalate and develop into reactivity.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Could you and the collie’s owner take them for a nice long walk together, on leads and apart but in a de-escalated environment?

My aunts dog was growly with my collie and that seemed to get him to stop feeling defensive, and relax a bit. We didn’t let them sniff or play together but we just did our own thing in the same general space, and they soon got over the hyper-focus on each other.

 

[Jenko109]

It's unclear if you approached the collie initially and allowed your dog to greet, or if it was a mutual decision.

My collie x is the same. A face to face on lead greeting would likely result in an 'enough, please out of my space' snap. As a result, on lead greetings are not allowed.

If someone allows their dog to enter directly into our space, forcing a face to face interaction, then my dog is absolutely not in the wrong for expressing her discomfort. She would never bite another dog, but she is within her rights to say 'Hey! No thanks! Back off' if an owner is silly enough to allow an uninvited interaction.

We do agility though. Given the nature of flyball, it would seem an odd choice of sport for this dog.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Is there any actual need for these dogs to interact in this way? Sports training is sports training, it's not the right environment IMO, maybe on the outskirts or in the car park or behind the gate but not in the and the collie owner is being unfair on the dog and others by having her at the box like this.







My young female hates other dogs and would react in this way by going for the other dog's face. However once the work head is on she is absorbed in that and in fact, the more dogs that are about the better as she doesn't know who to stare out so just gets on with it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As an analogy (new post as forum keeps jumping about and adding spaces on phone) my young dog also hates a particularly friend. No idea why as he is lovely and very laid back and he has tried making friends with her by feeding her raw mince with no success, but who knows what weird connection she has made.
But there it is.

If I'm competing and he's there, which is twice now, I've just told him to get out of the picture. Which was hilarious when he was the event manager and the German judge was wondering why I kept hissing 'would you clear off' at my so-called mate but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the owner of your dog's bête noire to give you some space.
If you were down the street and some random started giving you grief, you wouldn't be trying to be bezzie mates with them, nor would you be expected to.

 

[DabDab]

General responses rather than quoting individually....
It's not a case of dogs on leads walking up to each other in open space to greet (although some people do do that), the dog to dog greetings are more incidental as you are walking past in a relatively tight space. The venue is an indoor arena with maybe 5m between the flyball run and the arena wall (another run on the other side). People stand along the wall with their dogs, which you then have to walk past to get to the box end of the run to do run backs or close box t. Usually not an issue, but you have to make sure you put yourself between dog and wall standing people and dogs if you want to keep separation as you walk past. And obviously if you have a dog that is already stressed about passing another do even with you in the way it must be quite a lot to cope with.

This is why this week I ended up at the far end in the corner with me and dog sat on a mounting block, which is generally OK and she did relax, but when the dog she's uncomfortable with is doing runs it is of course then running direct at us at the end of it's runs, so still not ideal.

Thanks for generally confirming/clarifying thoughts that I need to be clear with owner of the other dog owner about need for our two dogs to have space from each other and work out how we are going to do that. And that I need to work on keeping her below threshold and building her confidence again. A shame when she was so focused prior to this but I guess in the long run it's a training opportunity.

 

[DabDab]

Could you and the collie’s owner take them for a nice long walk together, on leads and apart but in a de-escalated environment?

My aunts dog was growly with my collie and that seemed to get him to stop feeling defensive, and relax a bit. We didn’t let them sniff or play together but we just did our own thing in the same general space, and they soon got over the hyper-focus on each other.

Might be an idea if the issue persists, will see how it goes

 

[DabDab]

The barking is a sign she is unhappy, so I would take steps to remove her from that space and work up to what is comfortable.
She's clearly worried by the collie . So this might mean them being out of sight ( a barrier perhaps?) and gradually working up to walking past etc. Speak to the class trainer - you do NOT want this to escalate and develop into reactivity.

Yes you are right, I need to make sure I'm managing the situation for her before we get to barking.

 

[DabDab]

Flyball is 100% the wrong place for any reactive dog. It's such an unnatural environment ( dogs running straight towards each other at the change over etc) plus you see so many dogs over threshold. I would keep your dog as far away from that collie as you can and to be honest I would give your dog a few weeks off training to chill out and just meet nice dogs, then go back making sure you avoid the collie. The collie owner needs to find a good behaviourist.

Yes it is. The collie's owner is aware of his dog being a bit twitchy and is working on keeping forcus from what I can tell, but you do get the odd dog barrelling over from the other lane because they haven't stuck back to their owner, which again causes this collie to get quite upset and start reactive-barking. Hopefully it will settle with a bit more exposure and work from owner

 

[SusieT]

'This is why this week I ended up at the far end in the corner with me and dog sat on a mounting block, which is generally OK and she did relax, but when the dog she's uncomfortable with is doing runs it is of course then running direct at us at the end of it's runs, so still not ideal.'

Oh yes, I appreciate it isn't the best socially- but I would say you need to ensure that this is a never event by e.g. leaving the space. I'd probably as I say get a proper chat with the group trainer as set up sounds not suitable for dogs anyway - non training dogs need to be separate so accidents cant happen and everyone else isn't wound up.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

General responses rather than quoting individually....
It's not a case of dogs on leads walking up to each other in open space to greet (although some people do do that), the dog to dog greetings are more incidental as you are walking past in a relatively tight space. The venue is an indoor arena with maybe 5m between the flyball run and the arena wall (another run on the other side). People stand along the wall with their dogs, which you then have to walk past to get to the box end of the run to do run backs or close box t. Usually not an issue, but you have to make sure you put yourself between dog and wall standing people and dogs if you want to keep separation as you walk past. And obviously if you have a dog that is already stressed about passing another do even with you in the way it must be quite a lot to cope with.

This is why this week I ended up at the far end in the corner with me and dog sat on a mounting block, which is generally OK and she did relax, but when the dog she's uncomfortable with is doing runs it is of course then running direct at us at the end of it's runs, so still not ideal.

Thanks for generally confirming/clarifying thoughts that I need to be clear with owner of the other dog owner about need for our two dogs to have space from each other and work out how we are going to do that. And that I need to work on keeping her below threshold and building her confidence again. A shame when she was so focused prior to this but I guess in the long run it's a training opportunity.

Since Phoebe is a JRT x Pom, I presume she's not huge in size. Would it perhaps be an option for you to bring a small pet carrier that doesn't have windows on all sides, which you could put her in e.g. when the Collie is running, and Phoebe isn't. So that she isn't exposed to the trigger of having to see the Collie come running towards her?

Not suggesting it as a permanent solution, but perhaps something to use a few times in the beginning while you build her confidence again.