WWYD and How much would you charge?

[Llee94]

I have a lady that has been riding my horse for the last year since she lost her horse. She is a good rider and a really lovely lady as well as being a close friend.
However, what was originally supposed to be a hack every now and then over the summer soon turned into her riding him 3-4 times a week during the season and taking him out competing and even hunting. I was fine with all of that as I was just pleased he was getting all the attention (I got him because I felt sorry for him and he very much plays second fiddle to my competition mare, although he still got hacked/schooled 5-6 times a week and competed with me when I had a free weekend from eventing!) At the beginning we agreed on the sum of £50 a month (for riding him once or twice a week) which she always paid on time, but she doesn't really help out around the yard, feeding, mucking out or poo picking. She literally turns up, rides and then goes again. I have even transported him to lessons she has booked because she is running late and she didn't even offer petrol money, even when the journey was a 40 mile round trip. I think she gets a very good deal but am starting to think maybe I should ask for more as £50 doesn't even begin to cover what he costs and I hardly get to ride him anymore.
This year she is wanting to carry on riding him which is fine by me as I have a youngster to break in and bring on. I will be choosing his riding schedule so that he isn't over galloped or jumped, but I think she has these visions that he will be her next event horse (he is 15 this year, has soundness issues and in my eyes, should be starting to wind down and just have fun). She wants him to have bar shoes on, even though he has been fine with normal shoes on but she thinks these may help with keeping him sound, which I am more than happy for him to have if it will help.
My question is, how much would you charge somebody per week to ride your horse more or less full time, for bar shoes (about £100 a set from my farrier) and cover everything else like vets bills, feed, insurance etc and including my labour looking after him and not even getting to ride my own horse.
Also, how would you go about telling her that she has to follow my fitness plan and my rules without being rude. I really like the fact that I have somebody I can hack out with and that he is getting fussed over (during the season anyway!). Should I draft up an agreement? Last year was all very relaxed, but I think if she wants to do more, then maybe we should have something in writing?
Like I said, she is a close friend, a great rider and a really lovely person so I don't want to upset her or come across as rude, but at the same time I don't want to get taken advantage of.

Sorry for the waffle, I hope it makes sense! I have spent all day thinking about it and just thought I could ask on here what other people would do.
TIA

 

[Yardbird]

If it were me I would be looking to convert the arrangemant to a full loan, to stay at your present yard.

 

[be positive]

I think you need to decide whether you want her to have control, a loan, or for her to just ride him for fun, it sounds as if she is dictating what is going on yet is taking no real responsibility for him either in the day to day care or financially, friends and arrangements such as this don't work once the boundaries become blurred, I think you really need to decide what you want the horse to be doing then discuss it with your friend before she gets completely carried away.
Bar shoes need to be put on under veterinary advice not on the whim of a sharer, they may well do more harm than good especially if he is sound, this is something you need to get the vet involved with, I certainly would not put them on without xrays first.

 

[Llee94]

I can't do full loan as I am far too picky about my horses and at least this way I will still have some sort of control! I think she would get really carried away if she had complete control of what he does. Plus she works very long hours so couldn't have her own.
Think I am going to have to put my brave pants on, have a word with her and get something in writing.
Do you think £25 a week is too much to ask in return for riding 3 - 4 times a week and getting to compete him or should I ask for more? He is £45 a month to insure and is shod every 5 - 6 weeks (about £75 a set at the moment). Feed doesn't cost me a huge amount, maybe £25 a month for him at the most. I keep all of mine at home so I don't have to worry about livery costs, but I do all the work looking after him.
With regards to the bar shoes, he did original come with a set on, but he kept ripping them off so farrier changed them to normal shoes which he has manages to keep on. He doesn't have the best feet (bruises his soles all the time, but I have tried pads and they didn't work with him) and another farrier said he would have him in bar shoes if he was shoeing him, so now she wants to try them to see if they will help. I will ask the vet what he thinks when I get their teeth done in the next few weeks.

 

[be positive]

I would try and get the insurance, shoes and feed pretty much paid for, which is probably around the £25 per week, I don't blame you for wanting to stay in control but you really do need to set out some basic ground rules, she could at least do a few jobs to help you out, if you transport the horse she needs to pay for the derv otherwise you will start to resent her and it will rumble away underneath the surface which could end badly, get those brave pants on if she is a true friend she should realise she has got a good deal and has been taking liberties.

 

[_Annie_]

I think £25 p/w is more than reasonable, that's a bargain!

 

[OldNag]

A friend was charging £100 per month for sharer to ride 3 x per week, no jobs.
Sharer did tend to do jobs anyway and was really helpful. Didn't compete or get anything extra. Think yours sounds a bargain!

 

[Uliy]

definitely a bargain! I paid £30 a week to ride 3 times a week and do jobs (in London, however).
What a fantastic opportunity for her! I'm sure she would have no issue, and possibly be expecting a price increase. Good luck!

 

[Kezzabell2]

I think £25 a week is more than fair! but you also have to consider, if she doesn't want to pay that, will she stop riding all together and will you manage with all the extra exercise without her help?

I guess its difficult when its your friend, especially if she's had it so cheap for so long?!

 

[HaffiesRock]

£25 a week is a real bargain! My sharer pays £80 a month for as many days as she likes but it is normally 3-4. My pony is nothing special and my sharer gets free rein to do what she. If I could afford to have her without charging, I would. She is a complete godsend! She is so hardworking, always poo picks, cleans tack, buys things for the ponies, looks after my other one to give me a break when I need it, I just love her!

 

[fjordhorsefan]

You should also refuse to take her out to lessons and such like if she won't pay petrol money - if she's late and loses out, it will make her be on time in the future! Best of luck, she is very lucky to be able to have such a nice owner as you to let her ride!

 

[blowsbubbles]

Cost wise work out how much he costs you per day, divide by no of days Your happy for her to ride.
Ask her next time she has some time at the yard to have a catch up and put together a plan for the year for him. Then you can sit and discuss his fitness/ wind down plan.
Don't know much about bar shoes but if she pays for them then give it a try?
She should def pay for petrol cost. You should of asked first time but def say in future.
Ultimately you have to decide how important it is to have her doing yard jobs, and paying more. If you have a good arrangement you could risk losing her altogether.Personally I'd go in saying 'i sat down and realised how much X was costing me and how much time, and would she be willing to increase her payment, yard jobs. Let herofferwhat she feels is a fair amount and see how close that is to your estimate. If close compromise good sharers can be hard to find

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If the horse has poor hooves already (in what way - flared, flat, under-run heels, contracted heels, long toes, poor horn quality?), I would be very, very wary of bar shoes as they do tend to negatively affect the back half of the hoof. If you want to improve his hoof shape/balance, there are things that you can do but they might not go hand in hand with a competition plan. You need to decide what you want and if it's to keep him in this level of work (or slightly lower), then consider keeping him in standard shoes that he doesn't rip off regularly. You can of course keep him in the same level of work and feed for better horn quality.

 

[Llee94]

Forgot to add that he is eating about £40 worth of haylage a week at the moment! I reckon he is costing me over £200 a month at the moment on average. I can afford him without the sharers help (have managed fine for the last 5 years) and exercise wise, before the sharer I used to ride him 5-6 times a week along side my other horse, so that is no problem if the sharer decides to stop if she doesn't want to pay more. My mum loves him to bits and the plan was for her to take him on this year and contribute but she doesn't want to step on the sharers toes.
The jobs don't really bother me as again I would obviously do it whether she was there or not, although it is annoying when I am trying to feed 5 horses and she doesn't even offer to carry a bucket!
I originally offered him for her to ride occasionally over the summer as she had to have hers put down and she said how much she would miss riding but she was starting a new job in the Autumn so didn't feel she would be able to get her own again and it has just grown into her riding him more and more.
Like I said, I love the fact that he is somebodies 'no.1 horse' and gets fussed over and I let her do whatever she wants to with him. I even ask her if it is okay for me to take him out at the weekend for a lesson or competition incase she has anything planned for him. Its just the fact that she rides (including competing) him much more than I get to, but I am the one who is paying the majority of the costs and looking after him, including all winter.
She stopped paying in October as she wasn't able to ride him again until now, so I have been working hard and paying for him all winter, and she will just get to hop back on at the beginning of the season and crack on with the fun stuff. During her holidays (all 18 weeks of them!!) she rides him up to 6 times a week.
I work full time and bloody hard at that (as well as doing a degree) to afford my horses, I can't move out at the moment because of them and I just feel like she is getting a very good deal and maybe I should be asking for a little bit more help financially for what she is getting in return.
She is double my age and earns 3x as much as I do, so its not like she is short of money!

 

[Llee94]

If the horse has poor hooves already (in what way - flared, flat, under-run heels, contracted heels, long toes, poor horn quality?), I would be very, very wary of bar shoes as they do tend to negatively affect the back half of the hoof. If you want to improve his hoof shape/balance, there are things that you can do but they might not go hand in hand with a competition plan. You need to decide what you want and if it's to keep him in this level of work (or slightly lower), then consider keeping him in standard shoes that he doesn't rip off regularly. You can of course keep him in the same level of work and feed for better horn quality.

His feet are much better than when I got him. They were held together with plaster cast! The are just a little flat and he has sensitive soles. Nothing major at all. I think he copes fine, but a different farrier (mine was on holiday) just mentioned that if left up to him, he would put him in bar shoes to help with support. I asked my farrier who I have had for 10 years and he didn't think they would make any difference. He does get hoof supplements in his feed like farriers formula and lymestone flour.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

She stopped paying in October as she wasn't able to ride him again until now, so I have been working hard and paying for him all winter, and she will just get to hop back on at the beginning of the season and crack on with the fun stuff. During her holidays (all 18 weeks of them!!) she rides him up to 6 times a week.

That would annoy me.

I think that you can't continue with the old arrangement. As there has been a break, it is now the start of a new arrangement. Maybe call it a part loan or share and it's x days per week for £x per week (whatever you are happy with) and she has to do jobs and there will be strict rules about transporting her and the horse to comps and lessons so you don't feel taken advantage of.

 

[Llee94]

there will be strict rules about transporting her and the horse to comps and lessons so you don't feel taken advantage of.

The crazy thing is that she has her own trailer and 4x4! My mum and I are just far too soft. She was running late from work and mum said that she would take him there in our lorry and that if she didn't make it in time, I would take the lesson and pay for it so that she didn't loose any money. I tacked him all up, got in the arena, was just discussing what I wanted to work on and she turned up. I got straight off and gave her a leg up and she had the lesson. She helped me un-tack him but then got in her car and went home.
I try to be as helpful as possible, I even get him ready for comps for her if she is having to work in the morning, so that all she has to do is load up and go. I don't want the arrangement to stop, I just think I should ask for a little more 'help'.

 

[McFluff]

At the risk of being unpopular - you are being far too kind. The arrangement feels more like a lease - I paid £65 a week for similar (and felt it was fair). Perhaps a wee choice - continue at £25 a week, but ride twice a week so your mum can ride too, or a much more realistic price for the access she has at the moment. Also agree what happens if she can't ride - either cause he is lame or if she is away.
Why doesn't she do jobs - is she worried about getting in your way or doing it wrong? As someone who has owned before she must know what is involved...
Good luck in whatever you arrange, you sound very kind and thoughtful - she is one lucky lady.

 

[cobalobM]

I really think you need to tell its its a set amount of money for set days.. so say to her she can have him wednesdays and saturdays or something? and that she needs to let you know if she has entered a comp or has a lesson. that way your mum and you can both ride him still on the other days?

oh and I would also say on her days she has to do the jobs! or at least skip out/make haynet etc?

 

[Arzada]

Forgot to add that he is eating about £40 worth of haylage a week at the moment! I reckon he is costing me over £200 a month at the moment on average. I can afford him without the sharers help (have managed fine for the last 5 years) and exercise wise, before the sharer I used to ride him 5-6 times a week along side my other horse, so that is no problem if the sharer decides to stop if she doesn't want to pay more. My mum loves him to bits and the plan was for her to take him on this year and contribute but she doesn't want to step on the sharers toes.
The jobs don't really bother me as again I would obviously do it whether she was there or not, although it is annoying when I am trying to feed 5 horses and she doesn't even offer to carry a bucket!
I originally offered him for her to ride occasionally over the summer as she had to have hers put down and she said how much she would miss riding but she was starting a new job in the Autumn so didn't feel she would be able to get her own again and it has just grown into her riding him more and more.
Like I said, I love the fact that he is somebodies 'no.1 horse' and gets fussed over and I let her do whatever she wants to with him. I even ask her if it is okay for me to take him out at the weekend for a lesson or competition incase she has anything planned for him. Its just the fact that she rides (including competing) him much more than I get to, but I am the one who is paying the majority of the costs and looking after him, including all winter.
She stopped paying in October as she wasn't able to ride him again until now, so I have been working hard and paying for him all winter, and she will just get to hop back on at the beginning of the season and crack on with the fun stuff. During her holidays (all 18 weeks of them!!) she rides him up to 6 times a week.
I work full time and bloody hard at that (as well as doing a degree) to afford my horses, I can't move out at the moment because of them and I just feel like she is getting a very good deal and maybe I should be asking for a little bit more help financially for what she is getting in return.
She is double my age and earns 3x as much as I do, so its not like she is short of money!

I am stunned! She is walking all over you and you are letting all of this happen to the point that you are now comparing your lifestyles etc. I agree with Faracat " I think that you can't continue with the old arrangement. As there has been a break, it is now the start of a new arrangement. Maybe call it a part loan or share and it's x days per week for £x per week (whatever you are happy with) and she has to do jobs" You don't need to worry about transport for her because she has her own. If she's running late then that is her problem.

Work out what you want from a sharer, work out the cost of your horse and go from there. Oh and if you're happy with your farrier and you are happy with the improvement in your horse's feet then there is no need to listen to any other farrier's opinion.

 

[Pinkvboots]

The crazy thing is that she has her own trailer and 4x4! My mum and I are just far too soft. She was running late from work and mum said that she would take him there in our lorry and that if she didn't make it in time, I would take the lesson and pay for it so that she didn't loose any money. I tacked him all up, got in the arena, was just discussing what I wanted to work on and she turned up. I got straight off and gave her a leg up and she had the lesson. She helped me un-tack him but then got in her car and went home.
I try to be as helpful as possible, I even get him ready for comps for her if she is having to work in the morning, so that all she has to do is load up and go. I don't want the arrangement to stop, I just think I should ask for a little more 'help'.

Thats really rude to just expect you to takie the horse to a lesson then just drive off and leave you to it, I think you need to have words I would sit down and really think about what you want for your horse then decide on the money you want and then some ground rules, it really does sound like she is taking advantage of your good nature, even if you charge £30 a week and she mucks out and does other chores she is getting a very good deal, I know its difficult as she is a friend and you obviously dont want to fall out but you are being far too nice about it all, if she is unhappy with the new arangement you put in place you will easily find someone else and at least you will have all the control.

 

[be positive]

The crazy thing is that she has her own trailer and 4x4! My mum and I are just far too soft. She was running late from work and mum said that she would take him there in our lorry and that if she didn't make it in time, I would take the lesson and pay for it so that she didn't loose any money. I tacked him all up, got in the arena, was just discussing what I wanted to work on and she turned up. I got straight off and gave her a leg up and she had the lesson. She helped me un-tack him but then got in her car and went home.
I try to be as helpful as possible, I even get him ready for comps for her if she is having to work in the morning, so that all she has to do is load up and go. I don't want the arrangement to stop, I just think I should ask for a little more 'help'.

She is treating you as if she were a paying livery owner, competition livery at that, I get that she is "helping" you out, I have people ride mine and wouldn't dream of charging them to exercise but they would never expect to treat me as if they are the client, my paying liveries can and do but even they would be less cheeky than to always turn up without offering to help or pay extra for my time.

Did she have her own horse on full livery? it seems that she is older than you, more of your mums age and is taking advantage of this, you need to sort this out quickly, get your mum involved if you cannot deal with it on your own, make a firm but fair plan and stick to it, it is not really about what she is paying, or not, it is about her taking liberties with your good nature and not putting in anywhere near as much as she gets out.

 

[southerncomfort]

Crikey!

Well I think I'd sit her down and explain that your Mum would like to take over some of the riding and care of the horse this year so it's an ideal time to make a more formal arrangement.

Explain that costs have risen over the Winter and so to make it work you can offer her X amount of days riding for X amount of money. You could offer a small discount if she is willing to help with some chores on her days if you like.

To be honest, if she doesn't like and decides to walk away I don't think it will be any great loss!

 

[misskk88]

I think you need to sit down with her and explain that you would like to review your agreement and contract, given that the situation has now changed from what was originally agreed for the money/times ridden per month.

You need to firstly have a clear picture in your mind of what you want for YOUR horse and what fits in with YOUR schedule. I personally think she is royally taking the p**s, whether that be on purpose, or just through the habit/routine that has become of your original situation, but unless you talk to her, it won't change anything. If your mum is also involved due to your age etc, then ask her to be part of the chat with your sharer too, so that you can both stick to your guns.

IF you like her, and want to continue with the share, it needs to be on your terms, to benefit both parties, and to take into account your horses age and what you wish for him to be doing. I would explain that you are happy with their partnership, but that if this is to continue as it is, you need either more support financially, and/or through her help around the yard and with his care. Any agreements and decisions should be listed within the contract, so that you always have something to refer back to.

As for the bar shoes, and his soundness issues, I would not act upon her own views, but under the advice of your farrier and vet according to his history and reasons for lameness, and with the current/new routine you would like him to have in mind. If you decide this is right for him, then personally I would be asking her to either pay for the shoes herself, or cover the difference from her normal shoes. It is completely unfair for her to assume (but may be out of general concern and enthusiasm to help) that as the owner you even want to make changes to his current shoeing whether that be due to personal preference of how to manage him, what is best for him, or financial reasons. At the end of the day, as a sharer she has to accept that any final decisions about this type of thing do lay with you as the owner.

As I said, a share should benefit all involved and at the moment you seem to be her personal groom, taxi and skivvy, and that is just not on!!

I would stop doing her so many favours too as she seems to be taking it for granted. If you don't like the confrontation of simply saying 'no', you could use your new youngster as an excuse for not transporting her places i.e 'sorry I am breaking/riding/schooling/competing my own this weekend', and if you do offer her transport, put in place an agreement that means you either split costs, or if it is just her going somewhere that she covers the full cost of the fuel.

If she does kick up a fuss, or does not then listen to any new agreements, maybe you are best off without this sharer- there are many other great sharers around who would be more than willing to pay a bit more, to listen to you as the owner, and to help out with day to day care and chores.

I hope it does work out for you either way - he sounds like a lovely horse!

 

[9tails]

You're already feeling animosity as this woman has taken advantage, whether she realises or not. I suspect she does realise but that's by the by. What makes you think she doesn't have time for her own horse? She seems to be making a lot of time for yours. Ground rules are your friend, a written contract explaining exactly what you want from this relationship.

1. Horse ridden no more than 3 times per week for maximum 2 hours session, one weekend day
2. On ridden days; feed, muck out, turn out after riding
3. 1/2 competitions per month no more than novice dressage or 90cm jumping
4. All entry fees to be paid by sharer
5. If competing or having a lesson, transport to be provided by sharer
6. Contribution, £25 per week is an excellent deal but must be paid every week unless horse is out of work for any length of time.

ETA I wouldn't be changing a horse's shoes on the whim of a non-owner! What a joke.

 

[Llee94]

A little update. I finally managed to put my brave pants on and talked to the Sharer. I put down everything that my horses costs me per year (turns out its a lot!) and then divided it to get an average monthly cost and showed her. I did feel dreadful about doing this and I did get a little upset but I think it had to be done.
I asked for £30 per week which covers just under half of what he costs me per month, excluding unexpected vet bills and different types of shoes, and in return she would get him for three days per week including competing. She seemed to take it quite well but did say about work being very busy, which is understandable as it is coming into a very busy period for her, so she wasn't sure exactly how much she would be able to ride until after May. She has gone home to discuss it with her husband and hopefully I will know soon whether or not she wants to carry on. If she does, I will then put it all in writing so that it is clear what is expected and so there can be no confusion.
Thank you so much for all of your advice! It really helped make this easier and hopefully she will still want to ride him after all of this!!

 

[Handsome Jack]

A little update. I finally managed to put my brave pants on and talked to the Sharer. I put down everything that my horses costs me per year (turns out its a lot!) and then divided it to get an average monthly cost and showed her. I did feel dreadful about doing this and I did get a little upset but I think it had to be done.
I asked for £30 per week which covers just under half of what he costs me per month, excluding unexpected vet bills and different types of shoes, and in return she would get him for three days per week including competing. She seemed to take it quite well but did say about work being very busy, which is understandable as it is coming into a very busy period for her, so she wasn't sure exactly how much she would be able to ride until after May. She has gone home to discuss it with her husband and hopefully I will know soon whether or not she wants to carry on. If she does, I will then put it all in writing so that it is clear what is expected and so there can be no confusion.
Thank you so much for all of your advice! It really helped make this easier and hopefully she will still want to ride him after all of this!!

and surely it needs to be £30 per week every week, she cannot just pick him up and put him down as she sees fit?