WWYD barefoot lami cushings track livery?

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SadKen

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Short version: my mare had an overexcited panniculus reflex (wither twitching) in Feb which stopped me riding. Treated for pain in sacroiliac triggering the twitch, then diagnosed with lami I May, found to have cushings, and believe she also has navicular. Shoes pulled. Box rested but stress through the roof so turned out on a small paddock then strip grazed and muzzled 24/7. Came sound in boots and pads, hacked for 2 months. Moved paddocks, onto rye which has caused footsoreness but no pulses. Now back onto a bigger field with meadow grass, footsoreness easing but not as confident striding out as she was previously. Rode in the school the other day and she was lame even in walk. Hacked and sound on the hard in boots and pads but reluctant to go forward without encouragement, hacked today and had to kick every stride to move at all.

I hate riding her like this. She isn't overweight, she's on prascend, I can't box rest, I can't feed hay in the field on livery. If I turn away at my yard she will be eating grass through her muzzle 24/7. She just doesn't seem to be improving consistently, and I'm worried that hacking will have to be weekends only when we have nights drawing in again. I'd hoped to have her sound enough to maintain muscle (very wasted following cushings diagnosis) mooching round the outside of the school during winter.

I don't really enjoy hacking, want to have lessons and improve and compete at novice dressage, say 60/70cm SJ, fun rides, clinics etc. At 13, I'm not sure she is capable of doing this long term even if I can get her sound. She has had 5k spent on hock arthritis fixes, and around 2k on this year's issues. There is no money left and no insurance as she was excluded for everything on last quote.

Options:
1 PTS. Don't want to do this as she is the kindest easiest mare to do when sound. Nothing can hack like her. She will go alone, isnt frightened of anything. Not a single difficult thing about her.
2 turn away on track livery. It's over an hour away, cost is substantially more than existing livery. Would lose my stable. If she came back unsound I would PTS.
If sound, I'm unsure if she would be able to cope with the normal sort of life most people (including my livery yard) would be able to provide; it's no good if she can only cope with track livery as we don't have any locally and although I love her I'm not paying a third of my income to keep her in luxury retirement an hour away for the next 20 years!
3 wait as it's only been 3 months. Suck up her lack of forwardness. Man up. Hope!

This is the 4th year out of 6 that we have lost the entire competing season due to soundness issues. No other good livery yards locally within a reasonable distance.

Am I shortening her working life by trying to keep her doing what I want to do? Should I find her a loan home at a lower level? Would any homes be prepared to boot and pad/manage the lami risk? This is all assuming she comes sound. I have said if not sound and happy hacking by new year's eve I will PTS as there has to be an end to this, for my own mental health!

Lots of questions. I really hate this process. It's massively stressful not knowing what to do for the best, whilst watching her uncomfortable and watching my bank account empty each month.

Thoughts welcome.
 
lame in walk in the school would concern me.
is she sole sensitive if you tap them?
Is she more comfortable without you on board?
What boots and pads are you using?
Lack of forwardsness, I presume this is not her usual setting?
Is prascend level suitable? could it be increased given she is potentially still symptomatic?
Sorry lots of questions but I think helpful to think of at least.

Advantage of track livery is that it might give you a head start with happier hooves to start with, it might also increase her musculature. Disadvantage is that it isn't unusual for them to blip a bit when they go home.

My inclination would probably be to track livery for 3 months, have her back in winter when grass is less of an issue and see how she copes next spring.

I do know what it's like even though F is much older, we had a really tricky summer last year and I did wonder what on earth we were going to do if that was going to be the new status quo. He's been absolutely fine this summer in comparison!
 
Thanks Ester, that is useful as I've read your posts re your BF horse previously and clung to them a bit in the dark watches of the night!

Re the questions:

She is a little sole sensitive and the trimmer has said she has thin soles but they are improving. It isn't terrible, but she has very atrophied frogs and contracted heels. The trimmer was able to wiggle her hooves separately in two halves, and said the internal structures aren't stable as a result. I think she was very foot sore at the time I tried the school, and she didnt have her boots on at the time and on the soft I didn't think she would need them in walk (she was even footsore in boots and pads then on stony ground, I called her the princess and the pea); I haven't been in the school since.

Apart from the lack of forward ness she gives no hint of discomfort on tarmac and until today's slug behaviour I would say she was the same with or without me on board. I was walking her in hand with and without boots on tarmac quite happily with heel first landing until a couple of weeks ago - I have had a few intermittent days away - but not on the soft. Could try that again I guess. Haven't tried in hand in the school.

She is in cavallo sports with a thick foam pad recommended by my trimmer, I have a sheet of foam and cut new pads every couple of weeks. The cavallos are supposed to be the perfect size but they do twist on the back. I had dispensed with the backs before the move to the rye paddock but she was then too footsore to walk without them so we try and keep on as much as we can, bearing the twisting in mind. There isnt any money for new boots, but the trimmer thinks any boot will twist likely due to the way she is moving.

She has always been relatively lazy but today was utterly glacial.

Prascend: she is on 3/4 tab a day, split in 2 doses. I have recently increased back to 1 tab a day as that is what she is supposed to be on. It may be that the dose is actually too high in the real world; she started on 1 tab per day due to the lami but quickly became zombie-like and extremely miserable, so we went down to 1/2 then titrated slowly up to 3/4 then in last couple of days to 1. her ACTH has been tested twice; in may it was 50, 6 weeks later on 1tab it was 43. So not much of a drop. My vet thought it may need to increase to 1&1/4 as baseline aim was 27, but in the real world it seems that's too much for her. I think we may need to drop back down to 3/4 but obviously that's set against the lami and footsoreness.

I may need to dial down the riding and go back to in hand, I'd just love to have some confidence that I'm not going to be stuck in a cycle of hand walking and plodding the lanes in walk, I.e. that I'm not on a hiding to nothing as I'd rather not put either of us through it unnecessarily.
 
I had a FB reminder a couple of days ago of quite how much retained sole he sloughed off after 3.5 months of hanging onto it and being well transitioned to barefoot by that point. He's old now and we do treat him as metabolic. I'm also aware he is also a lifelong lazy arse in summer, to the point that random people would comment to my sharer who he took the pee out of a bit sometimes so I was just recalling that there are times I've had to nag him a lot for his own good ;) - hence your description being a bit familiar but obviously there is lots of additional info with your girl. - He is bloody terrible to walk in hand, he is long lined for that reason, I even managed to convince mum it was a good idea when we got round the short route in half the time she normally managed.

I do think prascend can be a bit of a balancing act re. pros and cons but it's good that you are aware of that with her and will monitor it. As much as anything I just like to check which pads are used as they vary so much and I do think it's not unusual to get twisting on the back due to shape and horses being a bit more likely to twist a hoof a bit behind. I do think it will be a bit of a balancing act depending how her hocks are though/she might be better with some boot rasping.

In some respects having hooves with loads of room for improvement does at least mean you have somewhere to go with them! It is really hard not knowing whether you are going to gain anything/if it's going to work or not. It takes a massive amount of patience, been there! If you are working in hand I would absolutely make sure she is going correctly or school in walk in hand to help with the muscle situation. But 3 months isn't long especially with a lami/cushings situation so I'd probably hang on in there (I figured at least I'd know I'd tried my best!).
 
My thoughts are that there could well be something else going on to cause her to be obviously lame on the soft yet ok on straight lines on the roads and the only way to know for sure would be to MRI at more expense, which I would not want to do.
I think it is highly unlikely that a 13 year old with hock arthritis, a SI injury, which may be fixed but if it is also arthritic may well come back, add the cushings and ongoing laminitis combined with contracted heels, poor frogs and thin soles will ever come back to a meaningful level of consistent competition work, in part because she has not managed to remain fully sound for 4 years out of the last 6 when she should have been in her prime.

I am lucky that I have my own land, like ester, which makes everything so much easier to manage and get the balance that is required, I think trying to deal with such a complex case on the average livery yard must be soul destroying at times, if I could I would give her 3 months on the track system then reassess with a view to pts if she is not showing a really positive improvement as I think you are possibly on a hiding to nothing hoping to get her back to be sound to compete on, I would not consider letting her go on loan as I feel it more unfair than having her pts while she is relatively sound and happy, if a loan goes wrong you would have to live with the guilt which will be far harder than making the decision while you have full control.

It is never easy especially when they are genuine and kind, the last one I had pts went a bit on and off following a laminitic episode while suffering from a serious abscess, he never really came back to the level he was at and I struggled to keep him on restricted grass because when he did feel good he jumped out of almost every field, if I thought I had him sorted he found a different way to get out, muzzles made him worse and when I finally called it a day I think he was ready to go after a morning eating as much as he wanted for once, he was very special but I knew I had run out of options.
 
I am going be harsh.
Is she going to be sound enough for what you want to do.
I have a pony with Cushings and reading bits what previous owners had said about him, he has probably been worked with low level laminitis for a while before he got a full blown attack. This may have explained his grumpiness and the quick change of onership.
He is not ridden, on modified track system and has a condition score of about 3/5. He is not lame but I doubt he would be ridden unless it was for a child to have a sit on him. I spend very little money on him apart form his trims and his Paracend.
If the pony is unwilling to work or lame it’s in pain and even if you can resolve theses issues it will stlll probably never cope with work.
I would if possible get it pain free and let it go.
I have had another pony with cushings who didn’t cope with Paracend, she wouldn’t eat anything, the poo ran from her and and she was just generally miserable. She was like a hat rack.
I managed to get her out of her depression but really she was never going to be well, so I let her go.
She was my horse of a lifetime, I had her from a just backed four year old and she was my children’s nanny. It’s hard but sometimes it has to be done.
 
Thanks folks, agree that the history is such that she probably isn't going to be capable of working at my level into the long term. If I could find someone with a perfect set up who wanted to bimble then it might be solvable but as is I'm not convinced myself that that is possible.

She is ultra genuine. I think she's had a lot of issues for a couple of years with hindsight, but she has soldiered on regardless and never really mentioned it. She can't do that now the shoes are off, as it is obvious.

If she wasn't such a darling it would be an easy decision but if sound to hack she would be an older lady's dream horse, which is why I don't want to PTS too soon. Obviously loan only!

I think I may have to give her a chance at track livery, then as Ester said I've done all I can and if i PTS i will have a relatively clear conscience. If she is sound at that point I will look for a loan home, but I'll pay for her prascend and that will give me a good opportunity to monitor her. Any issues once in the loan home, I PTS. If I can't find a loan home I'll ride her as I usually would, and if she goes unsound again, I PTS.

So hard to talk about. She is such a wonderful girl, a genuine unicorn. Until recently she was jumping 1m, dressage novice with scores in the 70s, xc would never stop, and would hack happily down the motorway if I let her! I have been blessed in many ways, maybe that's enough.
 
Get her off the rye grass as soon as you can - it has sugar levels dozens of times higher than meadow grass!!

Sorry, short of time and haven't read all the other posts but I would get her established on a track with minimal grass (feed soaked hay or clean dust free straw to boost the fibre level if you have to but two of mine manage well without on a 2 or 3m wide track round a 1/2 acre paddock, eating the grass as it comes through) with boots and pads if she needs them, where she can see others to keep her stress levels down.

Get a really goof podiatrist/trimmer to get her feet balanced for both the lammi and the navicular, and maybe consider turmeric for the navicular.

I would give her until early winter like that to see how she manages, and then, and only then, make the decision about her future - you may be surprised.
 
Thanks JillA she is off the rye and back on meadow grass now. I do think it's likely she would come sound on track livery, but the question is whether she would cope when back on normal livery with me. I don't have the option to do track livery and although we are lucky to have all year turnout in winter it's only during daylight and the paddocks are smaller individual ones. She wouldn't be moving a huge amount as the paddocks are small, and I could only ride at weekends if confined to hacking.

The YO has kindly agreed to a separate paddock which has crap grass I.e. poor quality, and I would muzzle for all turnout. I'm just not sure it would be enough to maintain soundness, but I guess if it isn't that's my answer.

She does have a good trimmer who is happy with her feet, he suspects as I do that she has had LGL for a while but when he trimmed her recently he thought she had improved. He has said she needs to grow a new capsule which is very slow in her case, but it is a much tighter shape. Her frogs are very sad limp things, offering no real support and only contacting the ground on a comfortable surface or in pads.

Thinking about that, she was much perkier when she saw him, but was on the rye then. I'm now wondering if the slowness on the hack was due to the increase in prascend. I'll take it back to 3/4 and see.
 
I agree with the other replies that
I’ve read.

3 months isn’t a lot of time for recovery for laminitis, however this depends on the severity of it and the extent of the damage.

What are you feeding her? Alfalfa chaffs are known to make some of them ‘footy’

To be honest, this horse as a lot of stuff going on for her to be long term reliably sound and sounds like realistically she’ll only be able to hack. If it’s possible for you to keep two, I’d try and find a sharer for her?
 
SadKen said:
Thanks folks, agree that the history is such that she probably isn't going to be capable of working at my level into the long term. If I could find someone with a perfect set up who wanted to bimble then it might be solvable but as is I'm not convinced myself that that is possible.

She is ultra genuine. I think she's had a lot of issues for a couple of years with hindsight, but she has soldiered on regardless and never really mentioned it. She can't do that now the shoes are off, as it is obvious.

If she wasn't such a darling it would be an easy decision but if sound to hack she would be an older lady's dream horse, which is why I don't want to PTS too soon. Obviously loan only!

I think I may have to give her a chance at track livery, then as Ester said I've done all I can and if i PTS i will have a relatively clear conscience. If she is sound at that point I will look for a loan home, but I'll pay for her prascend and that will give me a good opportunity to monitor her. Any issues once in the loan home, I PTS. If I can't find a loan home I'll ride her as I usually would, and if she goes unsound again, I PTS.

So hard to talk about. She is such a wonderful girl, a genuine unicorn. Until recently she was jumping 1m, dressage novice with scores in the 70s, xc would never stop, and would hack happily down the motorway if I let her! I have been blessed in many ways, maybe that's enough.
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I would do this. Review after 6 months or so on track livery then make a decision. My sister's gelding has had a similar number of soundness issues but luckily no lami and he is retired as, no matter how sound he in the field, he just doesn't hold up to much ridden work. My sister is fortunate though - my mum pays for his livery and I look after him as he is a useful companion for my own elderly mare. It's easier to have 2 retired ponies than 1 in many ways!
 
JillA thanks, she is off the rye now and the footsoreness is easing a bit. Feed wise all she has is grass or hay. She won't eat hard feed of any sort since she started prascend, (so no supplements even though I have loads to support feet), unless in overnight then she's hungry!

I am less worried about her coming sound on the track, as I think she will; if she doesn't, it's an easy decision. The problem is more whether she can maintain soundness in normal livery conditions (which for me is out in daylight in winter, out 24/7 in summer, individual smaller paddocks) and working conditions (novice dressage, bit of low level jumping, some hacking, lessons etc). I muzzle 24/7 in summer which whilst not ideal is manageable, but no use if she simply develops LGL immediately when back on grass. That means she can only function under optimum conditions which I can't provide at livery.

I've had a think through today and we are going to give the track livery a go. I'll take a break while she is there and we will reassess in jan/Feb next year. If unsound, PTS. If she comes back amazing and capable of working in the school at prelim level I'll take her home, bring back into work and muzzle in the day for turnout, whilst urgently looking for a low level riding club home that can keep her in better conditions than I can at livery, I.e. at home, restricted grazing, off grass with hay during the day in the summer and out at night muzzled. If sound to hack (in 3 gaits, barefoot for the most part), ditto, but hacking home only. If no suitable homes, will ride her myself at a lower level, and if not able to cope with conditions on livery will PTS.

I think this is the best plan; although I don't want to let her go as she is such an easy horse for me, I think she will have a longer happier working life with someone who can control living conditions better than I can, and who wants to do some fun low level stuff.

ETS I would love to have 2 but beyond the reach of my pocket unfortunately!

This is my favourite picture of her, if you look close up at her face you can see she's got a lot of personality and sadly loves her grass! This is pre lami of course but you can see the pot belly likely related to cushings. Hers, not mine. Ha

20190818_200013.jpg20190818_200031.jpg
 
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I suspect you will feel better with a plan, unfortunately there is genuinely no way of knowing how she will do once home which does mean you end up having to make a call without all of the info that would be helpful. But hopefully you will at least know then what you have got and much as I don't like to get too airy fairy given her system a good settle.

I don't think I've ever seen a pic of her :).

I'm also sure if she is as good a hack as you say that loaning would be a potential option if you want to do more, just one you'd have to be careful with/monitor. I know a couple of similar horses loaned out and doing well with their owners who really want good hacks :).
 
That's what I'm thinking, thanks Ester. I have considered the idea a short while back and just casually mentioned it to friends, two people were interested so I think there will be someone for her. I'm not even over selling her skills, she just isnt afraid of anything and merrily marches out on her own!

Do feel better for the plan. I might update with this thread when back from grass livery in case it is useful to anyone else.
 
I loaned one out in similar circumstances. She looked after him far better than I ever did and they were just the perfect match. I gifted him to her in the end and I've never once regretted it. She kept him until his last day and made sure he was always comfortable and happy, and in return they hacked for miles, went on fun rides and even tried hunting. I actually found her through this site and I'm forever grateful for that.
 
That is good news LW. I think we always believe we are doing our best for our horses and it is difficult to think that someone else might be better at it than we are, given the time, effort, money and heartache we put in. In my case I'd like to think I would be able to manage my mare wonderfully if I had the facilities to do so, but I don't. It is pretty likely that someone else could offer her a better home where she might go on to do a fabulous job for many years. Very hard to let go when we love them but your result would be my perfect outcome... and maybe I could have her back for retirement (although it would be nice to find her a match as good as yours, until the very end). Odd to think about as I thought we would be together forever, but I'd rather she had a longer happier forever with someone else.
 
You can indeed. Here is are two grim front hoof current pics to be going on with. They are wet hooves as just been soaked, so not as squishy as they look altho still not great. Also the side pic suggests there is a really high heel, which isnt the case excessively!20190819_194833.jpg20190819_194848.jpg20190819_194902.jpg We have had deep seated thrush so they are scrubbed every day with milton solution and packed with hoof clay. She has had clean trax treatment on all 4 and I'll do that monthly. She is growing her hooves very slowly, so the post lami growth is pretty much confined to just past the periople; I think you'll be able to guess where the shoes came off. You can just about see the new angle coming in, and all the event lines. She has long toes but the trimmer doesn't want to cut back yet.

She's still quite footsore. It's awful going about 10 steps back!

Thoughts welcome thus far.
 
I've definitely got a pic some where close to the second frog, as expected plenty of room for improvement and you can tell the heels is a bit of a perspective thing from the sole shots.

With the side on photos just make sure you are perpendicular and a little further away (but still on the ground). It's always been a bit further round than I think it is, even using a middle of toe marker! an old 2012 pic of ours approx 3 months in :)
200727_10152057236780438_917200068_n.jpg
 
I think it's an art form taking pics of hooves! Long way to go to be David Bailey!

Quite encouraging to see your feet there 3 months in, I think if mine had grown more quickly we would be further along so hopefully the track livery will help. I think the shape of my mare's hooves is pretty unhealthy so it really isn't a surprise that she is struggling. I feel more surprised that she didn't go lame earlier, the shoes were masking some fairly significant problems.
 
I’m not a foot guru like ester et al, but I do think that there is plenty of room left for improvement in those pics. The frogs look rather puny, which is not surprising after the thrush, but you are on top of treating it now. The track livery sounds like a good idea, along with continuing with your current podiatrist :). Fingers crossed that she will come good, but at least by sending her there you will have tried everything.

If she comes sound but not up to the level work you want to do, I agree that she could be loaned out to a suitable home who will love and cherish her, and who just want a safe horse to potter about on. I had a Cushing’s mare on loan once, and I paid for the Prascend.
 
Micky said:
Just a question, you say you think she has navicular..did you have x rays done?
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Hi, no xrays. The fund for any kind of diagnostics and most treatment (bar the bare essentials) is utterly exhausted, it's been around 7k so far of which I have paid over 4k, so my savings have gone and I have drawn a line. I won't borrow to fund more treatment.

She did see an excellent vet chiro who is one of the best, and our own vet is a lameness expert. There was some fluid around the coffin joint, and she was intermittently lame on a circle in the school, plus into trot on a hard surface at first, improving after rest. Their opinion was that navicular syndrome is probably a contributing factor, affecting both her general health and biomechanics. It is secondary to the bigger issues going on in her feet; looking at old videos she is toe first landing in shoes so a good candidate for it. The primary issue really is footsoreness and intolerance to grass. I think navicular is just in the mix, but not the primary problem.
 
No, no xrays. My vet is as confident as he can be that any rotation, if it has occurred at all, will be minor. My trimmer also believes that there are no signs of rotation in her feet. He is also confident that her foot balance is ok. Of course xrays would show for sure but they would be a few hundred pounds. At this point there are no funds to support further diagnostics. We are just having to do it the old fashioned way!
 
I know that you said that the piggy bank is empty, but I couldn’t not get the feet x rayed if she was mine, in case there is rotation from the laminitis. My vet told me when she came to X Ray my suspect laminitic horse that there may be rotation present even if there are no outward signs. A set of foot x rays should cost in the low £100s, can you off set that against the cost of the track livery?

The other thing is saddle fit. Apologies if you’ve mentioned if you’ve had it checked, but with her issues her back profile may have changed quite a lot, and if it no longer fits that could make her reluctant to go forward under saddle.
 
In an ideal world I would xray. And I'd have arthramid in the coffin joint. And I'd have had bar shoes and an MRI for navicular, and the other investigations and treatments, like I did with the hocks to keep her sound and in work. But fundamentally x ray results won't change anything in terms of next steps, unless the rotation was so awful that I would PTS, and there is no indication of that. My trimmer is quite happy to trim her without xrays, so although they are a nice to have, I'd rather spend the money on treatment (which would be track livery). For the fronts to be done my vet estimated £250+VAT for xrays; that's 3 months of track livery over and above my normal livery cost. My cushings tests and treatments this year will come to over £500 before I allow for anything else that might be needed. Believe me I already feel bad that I'm not doing everything that is feasibly possible, but the outlay really has to stop for the sake of my mortgage, marriage and mental health!

I think you may be right on saddle fit, she has lost a lot of muscle and although I had put a sheepskin on, it may not be enough. I decided I won't ride her now anyway, she has said she doesn't enjoy it. I doubt a few weeks in the field before going off to track livery will do any real harm, she isn't fat and I can always hand walk if needs be.
 
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