WWYD - Bone spavin. Retire or?

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DonskiWA

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Retire outright or push on?
He's a 16yo eventer with managed Cushings.
His cortisone injections only last 6 weeks. Do I retire him or push on and get his hocks chemically fused (in which I understand that I can't really compete or train seriously for up to 18 months anyway).
He's no good as a riding horse, he's too hot.
 
I should add, it's no big hassle to retire him. He can just live out his days in our paddock. And I'm 48 and am keen as mustard to keep competing, as my biological clock is ticking and I don't know how many more years I've got left in me!
But having said that, he's a good horse and my partner-in-crime, so the thought of having to establish a partnership with someone else leaves me cold.
 
DonskiWA said:
I should add, it's no big hassle to retire him. He can just live out his days in our paddock. And I'm 48 and am keen as mustard to keep competing, as my biological clock is ticking and I don't know how many more years I've got left in me!
But having said that, he's a good horse and my partner-in-crime, so the thought of having to establish a partnership with someone else leaves me cold.
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With this part in mind I would retire him so you can crack on with something new, the spavins may settle down and give you another year or so but it is a gamble and my mind you would be best getting going with another younger horse that will give you the competing you want, at 16 with cushings there is every possibility something else will flare up even if you do fix the spavins.

A year turned away may mean you can pick him up again if you feel like it and have 2 to ride, look at starting with a different horse as a positive step, if you find the right one you will have years ahead of you to really establish a partnership.
 
He's nearly 17, with two conditions to manage? Realistically I'd let him retire to the paddock and go find a younger horse to achieve the goals you have set yourself, sounds like he has earned a rest.
 
You need to keep working him, keep him moving at least. Spavins need work to fuse ..... Although if he's hot as you say, he may work himself in the field, hopefully correctly and not with too much compensation, leading to back problems. Either way, give him something for inflammatory pain.
 
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DonskiWA said:
Thanks guys, I'm slowly starting to gain clarity in a tough situation.
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My horse has had chemical arthrodesis in both hocks around four years ago and its worked great. He is now 19. It doesn't take twelve to 18 months to be able to compete again, certainly not, although I know all horses are different. THe change is immediate insomuch the pain is taken away. It can take twelve to 18 months for the hocks to fuse, I think that is what you are getting mixed up with. Like any injury a period of rehab needs to take place, with remedial shoeing, low level bute or bute equivalent, careful management, different riding technique - up off the forehand, good joint supplement and physio intervention. Like previous poster says you need to keep an arthritic horse in work albeit at a lesser pace than before, choose your surfaces carefully and start off slowly and reintroduce things gradually. Also as much turn out as possible. They will overcompensate so you need to be on the ball and spot signs and get intervention if and when.

It certainly worked for my boy- for many years and still is. I believe the photo of him jumping in my siggy was taken about 8 months after his fusion. X rays 12 months on showed one hock almost fused and the other (the worse one) fused completely.

You say he is no good as a riding horse as he's too hot, but this may be because he is in pain from his hocks and this is causing him behavoural issues. I'm no vet but the change in my horse after the injections was amazing.

This from a research paper in 2004: At 3, 6, 12 and 24 months after treatment, respectively, 0/57, 14/55, 41/50, and 29/34 of horses were sound. At 3, 6, 12 and 24 months after treatment, respectively, 5/55, 24/38, 26/30 and 18/18 of horses had radiographic evidence of ankylosis of treated joints. Post injection pain was marked in 6.7% of horses and significant complications requiring further treatment occurred in 3.8% of horses.

From another link http://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/client_lib_hockfusion.html :

Surgical Infusion of MIA. This procedure is performed in the standing, sedated horse. Epidural anesthesia in combination with systemic antiinflammatories and analgesics (pain killers) is often used concurrently to address initial postoperative pain. The horse can be extremely painful during the initial 16-18 hours post-treatment and must be monitored closely during this time.

Dramatic Improvement During Initial Post-Treatment Period. After about 18 hours, the horse's comfort tends to improve rapidly. This usually allows the owner to resume exercise the day following treatment. Many horses are sound after 7-10 post-treatment days. The quick improvement in comfort is attributed to presumed chemical neurectomy of the nerves (in the joint capsule) which provide sensory output from the joint. The nerves are essentially "killed off" and can no longer transmit pain signals to the brain. Consequently, the horse's lameness resolves and overall performance is dramatically improved. The fusion process has only begun to occur at this point and is not yet providing any antiinflammatory relief. The effects from the "neurectomy" can last up to 6 months following the treatment.

Regression of Clinical Signs. Some degree of stiffness may develop as the nerves within the joint capsule(s) grow back. On average, some degree of lameness recurs by 4-6 months post-treatment. Sensory output from the joints has been reestablished but the fusion process has not yet been completed. Lameness will persist until the distal tarsal joints finally stabilize (fuse).

Soundness is Achieved. Fusion typically occurs between 8-10 months following MIA introduction into the affected joint(s). Once fused, the distal tarsal joints are no longer a source of pain or lameness

It costs around £300 pound mark for both hocks and needs to be done at a clinic. From what I can gather the prognosis for return to work is very good. No brainer really.
 
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It costs around £300 pound mark for both hocks and needs to be done at a clinic. From what I can gather the prognosis for return to work is very good. No brainer really.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?736806-WWYD-Bone-spa
vin-Retire-or#tGE7ZieoEeJSWMBc.99

It may be a no brainer in some cases but for the OP who has a 16year old with cushings when she wants to event I think it is a different story, yes it can be treated, yes it may be successful but the horse will be 18 by the time it gets back to full work and even then is it likely to be able to be competitive, taking part is not always what the owner is aiming for, there is no guarantee and to my mind it is a no brainer to be looking for another horse as that is feasible for the OP.

Bailey has had his hocks treated but he has had numerous other issues and while you may deem all the treatments to be successful as a competitive horse he has rarely been able to get out over the past few years, if you had the finances, time and inclination to keep a second horse to compete I think like many you would jump at the chance which it why most of us have suggested that is what the OP should do, it does not mean giving up on the horse just going in a different direction so the OP can achieve her ambitions without putting all of her resources into an older horse who may never be up to what she wants to do.
 
be positive said:
It costs around £300 pound mark for both hocks and needs to be done at a clinic. From what I can gather the prognosis for return to work is very good. No brainer really.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?736806-WWYD-Bone-spa
vin-Retire-or#tGE7ZieoEeJSWMBc.99

It may be a no brainer in some cases but for the OP who has a 16year old with cushings when she wants to event I think it is a different story, yes it can be treated, yes it may be successful but the horse will be 18 by the time it gets back to full work and even then is it likely to be able to be competitive, taking part is not always what the owner is aiming for, there is no guarantee and to my mind it is a no brainer to be looking for another horse as that is feasible for the OP.

Bailey has had his hocks treated but he has had numerous other issues and while you may deem all the treatments to be successful as a competitive horse he has rarely been able to get out over the past few years, if you had the finances, time and inclination to keep a second horse to compete I think like many you would jump at the chance which it why most of us have suggested that is what the OP should do, it does not mean giving up on the horse just going in a different direction so the OP can achieve her ambitions without putting all of her resources into an older horse who may never be up to what she wants to do.
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No it won't be 18 by the time it gets back to full work, you are wrong as I have already stated. THe OP is getting mixed up with between the time it takes for the hocks to fuse and the time you can restart full work which is a matter of weeks or a couple of months I really can't remember, but not much time at all.

I am not sure why it is likely that the horse is unable to be competitive once its had this treatment. There is 'eventing' and there is 'eventing'. Unless the horse up to going around Burghley or Badminton there is no reason why it can't continue to event once its had the treatment, I assume we are talking low level riding club stuff. There are lots of horses resuming their previous level of work/competition following this procedure.

If she can afford two horses by retiring one and buying another then fair enough maybe this would be the better option but for a horse who is 'worth its weight in gold' which she has indicated he is then imho fusion would be worth pursuing but each to their own. If £300 is too much to take a gamble on then so be it. There seems such a lot of negativity on this forum from many whom own horses with spavin, when in reality there appears to be so much treatment on offer but as I've always said ethanol fusion is not a 'magic cure all' and a lot of management needs to go into the horse than just a quick injection of alcohol, like remedial shoeing, joint supplements, care with surfaces, ongoing physio input etc, etc, etc. For most of us on this forum we have no choice but to continue for as long as humanly possible as we can only afford one. Maybe for this 'lucky' OP (and I mean lucky is the sense she has a choice, as she is obviously not lucky her horse has spavin) her horse can be retired and she can get another.
 
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Also if I can add, I know Bailey has had numerous problems (three suspensory branch sprains which the vet said yesterday was very common - we have two others with this on our yard of nine horses at the moment!) but also that none of these can be attributed to his hocks - a suggestion which has been made on this forum before (not by you be positive, I know).
 
applecart14 said:
No it won't be 18 by the time it gets back to full work, you are wrong as I have already stated. THe OP is getting mixed up with between the time it takes for the hocks to fuse and the time you can restart full work which is a matter of weeks or a.

I am not sure why it is likely that it is able to be competitive. There is 'eventing' and there is 'eventing'. Unless the horse up to going around Burghley or Badminton there is no reason why it can't continue to event once its had the treatment, I assume we are talking low level riding club stuff.

I am not sure why you think the OP can afford a second horse either, she has said she can retire the present horse in the paddock
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It depends what you consider full work, to me that is being 100% sound and able to compete regularly, if he is not 100% until the hocks fuse then he will be nearer 18 than 16, if he is not 100% he will not be competitive eventing as it will get noticed in the dressage or will have to be withdrawn before iit gets in the arena.
I think of eventing or an event horse as one doing at least 90/100 level BE, not low level RC or BE80's but I may be wrong in interpreting what the OP means by "eventer".

I don't know the OP's financial circumstances but her second post implied that this horse could live out his days and that another horse was an option, I really think that is none of our business but don't understand the need to keep chucking everything possible at an older horse, who can probably enjoy retirement, in an attempt to prolong it's ridden life just for our own needs especially if our requirements may be beyond the horse within the net year or two.
I appreciate not everyone has a field they can retire their horse to but equally I am not sure of the ethics of keeping a horse in work by regularly treating with steroids or whatever is the drug of choice, just so they can do what we want, as long as they are field sound and comfortable then many will enjoy years of retirement, as that is an option for the OP then I think she needs support so she can find a new partner and move on to another stage of her riding career without feeling guilty. .
 
be positive said:
It depends what you consider full work, to me that is being 100% sound and able to compete regularly, if he is not 100% until the hocks fuse then he will be nearer 18 than 16, if he is not 100% he will not be competitive eventing as it will get noticed in the dressage or will have to be withdrawn before iit gets in the arena.
I think of eventing or an event horse as one doing at least 90/100 level BE, not low level RC or BE80's but I may be wrong in interpreting what the OP means by "eventer".

I don't know the OP's financial circumstances but her second post implied that this horse could live out his days and that another horse was an option, I really think that is none of our business but don't understand the need to keep chucking everything possible at an older horse, who can probably enjoy retirement, in an attempt to prolong it's ridden life just for our own needs especially if our requirements may be beyond the horse within the net year or two.
I appreciate not everyone has a field they can retire their horse to but equally I am not sure of the ethics of keeping a horse in work by regularly treating with steroids or whatever is the drug of choice, just so they can do what we want, as long as they are field sound and comfortable then many will enjoy years of retirement, as that is an option for the OP then I think she needs support so she can find a new partner and move on to another stage of her riding career without feeling guilty. .
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Like I say, each to their own and maybe I am going by my own instinct too much. Everyone is different and the lengths that people will go to in order to support their horse under veterinary guidance is determined not just by their patience and perserverance but also their pocket. Some horses (mine included) cannot be retired, they require work as this is literally the 'glue' that holds them together, with certain conditions they need the movement that work gives their tendons/ligaments and joints that they would not otherwise get in a field. It costs me a fortune to maintain my horse and a lot of time and effort but I have no choice.

The ethics are keeping a horse in 'work' by treating with steroids is preferable in my opinion to a horse in living in pain but retired 'happily' in a field. I'm not suggesting that all people who have retired their horse fall into this catergory but I suspect there are many horses that are not quite as 'happily retired' as people like to believe and in my humble opinion I don't see an issue with giving a horse a bit of alcohol in their joints if it prolongs their working life or makes them more comfortable (actually hugely more comfortable), nor do I see giving my horse steroid in his neck to make him more comfortable because his neck may be aching an ethical issue either.

I'm not going to start a huge debate about ethics as I am aware what people think of me on this forum and I don't really care, but whilst I have the ability to finance my horse and a vet that is willing to go the extra mile to ensure my horse remains happy and healthy then I will do so. The vet didn't say my horse was a credit to me and that he looked fit and otherwise healthy for no reason. If I can continue to compete its a bonus, if I can't then so be it, I will still have fun with my boy, chatting away endlessly to him as we go on our lovely long hacks because I love him to pieces and because he enjoys what he does.

I hope the OP gets lots more advice before ruling out fusion completely, especially from people who have already had the procedure carried out on their horses as I would have thought that those are the best people to talk to, rather than take advice from people who have not had first hand experience (that is not a knock at anyone who has replied, just a helpful insight).
 
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As is so often the case you have to turn a thread into being about you, this is not your thread, what suits you and your horse is down to you and has little bearing on the OP and their horse who probably will be more than happy retiring to the field, no one is starting a big debate other than you.

I just don't see the point in the OP trying to get this horse to be what she wants and will support anyone who prefers to retire than to keep going when the outcome is unlikely to be fully "successful" in other words a competitive future.
 
If it were me, I'd consider looking at treatment options if I could fund it, but more with the aim of making the horse comfortable at this stage in his life and then see what you've got later on. If he can come back into work, then great, but in the meantime I'd be looking for something else as hinted about. With the right horse, you can get a good partnership going quite swiftly. Then your oldie might be able to do a bit, or he might just be happy pottering around at home.

I've done this for my old girl - different condition but basically expecting her not to return to full work (was competing AM and playing with advanced). If she does come back to some work, it'll be a lower level and I can't ethically bring myself to push her any more. She'd be a great medium horse all day long and who knows, perhaps she could be a schoolmistress in a very part time way.

The older they get, the longer things take to heal IME. Plus at that age, sometimes when you let them down a bit they get older, faster. Mine still looks pretty well muscled despite being in very light work for months, but I know it won't be long before she starts to lose suppleness etc if she can't stay in work and I wouldn't consider jumping her again.
 
agree that it also depends on individual definition of full work. As OP described the horse as hot I'm assuming it was competing to a reasonably high level and in a lot of work.
Mine was working hard before she broke again. Pretty sure both would be able to do a bit of a job but it's not what either I nor the OP want for ourselves.

I know another horse that developed spavins at a fairly early age, terrible shame as it was a promising event horse with scope for 3* but it just never came right despite xraying fused already. so even if the treatment goes to plan, chances are that the owner might have to adjust expectations anyway.
 
It's good to know that it's not a clear cut decision for others as well. It's doing my head in. It is pretty low level stuff currently - 80cm, but it would be nice to have the option of going up to 95 in the future.
I'm thinking of going the middle route as milliepops suggests. I'll get my boy fused for his comfort, but keep my eye open for a new horse as well. Then I'll whinge when I have two horses needing full time work!
 
How lame is he once the steroid wears off?
I'm really not keen on ethanol treatment as a concept, I would have a serious chat with your vet about it. Given his age and the cushings I don't think I would proceed that way and if he was comfortable enough in the field as he stands and you are able to I would probably retire him.
 
He isn't that noticeably lame in his normal paces in the paddock really. But it's obvious in the arena.
Can I ask why you're aren't a fan of the ethanol treatment please?
 
be positive said:
As is so often the case you have to turn a thread into being about you, this is not your thread, what suits you and your horse is down to you and has little bearing on the OP and their horse who probably will be more than happy retiring to the field, no one is starting a big debate other than you.

I just don't see the point in the OP trying to get this horse to be what she wants and will support anyone who prefers to retire than to keep going when the outcome is unlikely to be fully "successful" in other words a competitive future.
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I wasn't turning it around to be about me, that is really unkind of you to say that. I have obviously touched a raw nerve somewhere along the way without meaning to or maybe someone is hoping for a bite on the line ready for the next 'big argument' and upset again. Sorry I am not hungry anymore.

I am not sure how by saying all this I was going off topic and talking about myself. Usually when you talk about something you are knowledegable about you talk from experience, whether that be personal or professional. If I mention my horse it is giving an example from experience of something I have learnt. I don't know how else to reply in a way that you would deem suitable. Maybe I should make up names of horses and of people so I am 'not talking about myself'. That is really sad.

I was just trying to explain things as you mentioned steroid and people using all manner of things to make their horse comfy. I ended the post by saying that I hoped that the OP gets lots more advice before ruling out fusion completely, especially from people who have already had the procedure carried out on their horses as I would have thought that those are the best people to talk to, rather than take advice from people who have not had first hand experience (that is not a knock at anyone who has replied, just a helpful insight).

I also said about the retirement suggeston that some horses (mine included) cannot be retired, they require work as this is literally the 'glue' that holds them together, with certain conditions they need the movement that work gives their tendons/ligaments and joints that they would not otherwise get in a field.

I also said the ethics are keeping a horse in 'work' by treating with steroids is preferable in my opinion to a horse in living in pain but retired 'happily' in a field. I'm not suggesting that all people who have retired their horse fall into this catergory but I suspect there are many horses that are not quite as 'happily retired' as people like to believe and in my humble opinion I don't see an issue with giving a horse a bit of alcohol in their joints if it prolongs their working life or makes them more comfortable.
 
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AC did the vet not at one point want to put lateral extensions on bailey because they thought that fusing the bottom plates had had a resulting concussive effect on the higher parts of the joint that were struggling?
 
ester said:
AC did the vet not at one point want to put lateral extensions on bailey because they thought that fusing the bottom plates had had a resulting concussive effect on the higher parts of the joint that were struggling?
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that is correct ester. unfortunately i think it is four to eight % of horses that have the procedure the concussion thing is a side effect which can manifest itself some three to four years following fusion but following a course of anti inflammatories and lateral extensions to alter foot placement this was rectified and following check ups the vet was satisfied the treatment had worked well and the horse was able to continue at a level he was comfortable with as agreed in conjunction with the vet. As with any treatment you can get complications. i wasnt made aware of it at the time but it didnt deflect from the fact that it has worked very well and was very worthwhile.
 
DonskiWA said:
Can I ask what lateral extensions are please?
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Putting on a shoe which is wider than the foot, forcing the foot to land differently.

OP I'd buy another horse. My eventer with spavins was never sound enough to event again and it was the end of my serious competing. I didn't have the bottle by then to take a new horse over 'Novice' size courses. The fusion process that Applecart described says the horses come sound but many go unsound again at 4-6 months, so you are very likely to lose next season at BE anyway.
 
ycbm said:
Putting on a shoe which is wider than the foot, forcing the foot to land differently.

OP I'd buy another horse. My eventer with spavins was never sound enough to event again and it was the end of my serious competing. I didn't have the bottle by then to take a new horse over 'Novice' size courses. The fusion process that Applecart described says the horses come sound but many go unsound again at 4-6 months, so you are very likely to lose next season at BE anyway.
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many go unsound at 4 to 6 months??? Please where do u get this info from. I have never heard of this. i was told on this forum by someone that having the procedure done made my horse more liable to suspensory branch injury and when i queried this with vet he said i had been told utter rubbish. OP PLease if you wont take the word of someone with experience of these matters i would suggest you do some reading up or ask others that have had the procedure or better still speak to a vet that has experience of this procedure. As for lat exts forcing feet to move differently they do not 'force' instead they encorage better foot placement which can only be acheived alongside pain relief because the reason the horse is placing foot midline is to take weight of the joint because it hurts. When the horse stops taking the weight in the incorrect place he will over time be accustomed to the new way of going and will stop placing unaturally.YBCM i am curious to know did your horse actually have ethanol?
 
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The spavins may or may not heal in 1 year to 18 months. Every horse is different - I am four years in on mine after injections.

However how do you 'manage' Cushings? The only way I know is Prascend (Pergolide) and it is illegal for competition horses. Testing is even taking place at Riding Club and Pony Club level nowadays and very regularly at even low level affiliated sports. There are more amateur riders falling foul of the testing because they are not clear that 'it applies to them'. Rest assured it does!

Retire you old friend and start again.
 
applecart14 said:
many go unsound at 4 to 6 months??? Please where do u get this info from. I have never heard of this. i was told on this forum by someone that having the procedure done made my horse more liable to suspensory branch injury and when i queried this with vet he said i had been told utter rubbish. OP PLease if you wont take the word of someone with experience of these matters i would suggest you do some reading up or ask others that have had the procedure or better still speak to a vet that has experience of this procedure. As for lat exts forcing feet to move differently they do not 'force' instead they encorage better foot placement which can only be acheived alongside pain relief because the reason the horse is placing foot midline is to take weight of the joint because it hurts. When the horse stops taking the weight in the incorrect place he will over time be accustomed to the new way of going and will stop placing unaturally.YBCM i am curious to know did your horse actually have ethanol?
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for me it is the more long term complications that mean I wouldn't do it, even the current merck vet manual states it is a treatment 'difficult to recommend' even if you don't fancy going searching out the papers yourself.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/m...is_of_the_distal_tarsal_joints_in_horses.html

Ermm how have you missed that when the very page that you linked to for atlanta equine states this AC! the initial ethanol infusion destroys the nerves = soundness, at the 4-6 month point feeling returns but the hock is not yet fused so the horse will likely be lame again until fusion occurs. Maybe you should read the links you post more fully?

http://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/client_lib_hockfusion.html

Typical Course of Events:

Surgical Infusion of MIA. This procedure is performed in the standing, sedated horse. Epidural anesthesia in combination with systemic antiinflammatories and analgesics (pain killers) is often used concurrently to address initial postoperative pain. The horse can be extremely painful during the initial 16-18 hours post-treatment and must be monitored closely during this time.
Dramatic Improvement During Initial Post-Treatment Period. After about 18 hours, the horse's comfort tends to improve rapidly. This usually allows the owner to resume exercise the day following treatment. Many horses are sound after 7-10 post-treatment days. The quick improvement in comfort is attributed to presumed chemical neurectomy of the nerves (in the joint capsule) which provide sensory output from the joint. The nerves are essentially "killed off" and can no longer transmit pain signals to the brain. Consequently, the horse's lameness resolves and overall performance is dramatically improved. The fusion process has only begun to occur at this point and is not yet providing any antiinflammatory relief. The effects from the "neurectomy" can last up to 6 months following the treatment.
Regression of Clinical Signs. Some degree of stiffness may develop as the nerves within the joint capsule(s) grow back. On average, some degree of lameness recurs by 4-6 months post-treatment. Sensory output from the joints has been reestablished but the fusion process has not yet been completed. Lameness will persist until the distal tarsal joints finally stabilize (fuse).
Soundness is Achieved. Fusion typically occurs between 8-10 months following MIA introduction into the affected joint(s). Once fused, the distal tarsal joints are no longer a source of pain or lameness.'
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Interesting thread for me as Fatty has some mild hock changes he's fifteen and has been hunting since he was four .
He was 1/10 lame on the lunge on the hard on work up but the thing that lead to me finding it was he stopped with MrGS at the end of last season when asked to turn quickly and jump out of deep mud with a very short approach .
When represented he said no again he never says no out hunting .
He's had some steroid jabs and Tildren but sadly he did the mad drinking thing some horses do after Tildren so can't have that again he has lateral extensions and he has just finished a course of cartofen and is doing really well ATM .
I am hoping that cartofen the extensions and managing work load a bit differently we will be ok.
He hunted this morning and was really enjoying himself .
He's still out ATM but soon this will have to change I hope he will be ok when he has to be stabled at night , we are giving him the huge foaling box I can't do anything more .
I am considering ethanol fusing for him not at the moment but I think it may be better in the long term than repeated steroid jabs .
He's such a good doer the future is not bright for him as a retired horse .I have to restrict him aggressively to manage his weight even when he's in work .
The vet says( and he right) if he's happy at the moment then we wait and keep the ethanol for further down the road .
I still have the option of Danilon to manage him as well.
You just have to make the best choices you can and they will vary depending the horse it's job and your situation .
 
ycbm said:
Putting on a shoe which is wider than the foot, forcing the foot to land differently.

OP I'd buy another horse. My eventer with spavins was never sound enough to event again and it was the end of my serious competing. I didn't have the bottle by then to take a new horse over 'Novice' size courses. The fusion process that Applecart described says the horses come sound but many go unsound again at 4-6 months, so you are very likely to lose next season at BE anyway.
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I certainly was told timing with fusion is important .
 
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