wwyd dilemma

[windand rain]

MBP Munchhausen by proxy
An illness where a person damages hurts or harms someone or some living thing to get attention from medical professionals
Munchhuasens itself is self harming to get the attention of others usually doctors but may be other family members
sufferers can be so convincing they can endure serious surgical interventions and tend to be aware enough to go from hospital to hospital in order not to be discovered by appearing to often at one sometimes even travelling round the country and when wealthy enough round the world

 

[Regandal]

I took on a horse from Horses4Homes. He's lovely, 13 yrs old and capable of light hacking, just what I need. What upset me was the amount of older horses/ponies on that site, most unrideable and seeking a home as a companion. "Captain, 23 years young, plenty left in the tank" etc. Whilst acknowledging that people fall on hard times, the number of older/unrideable horses outnumber the young ones hugely, and you have to wonder how realistic the prospect of rehoming them is. They must have been someone's pride & joy at some point in their lives, how sad to see. I'd rather euthanise mine than send them away at that age.

 

[dogatemysalad]

I have no idea who he felt it was apporiate to disscuss with another cilent .
I made no comment on him personally i don't know him.
Surely better the unneeded call out inexperianced or other wise than the other side of the coin.
I will admit I have seen overhorsed riders looking for medical reasons the horse won't go for them but hey no ones perfect some people are not blessed with self awareness .
But I also know a rider desperately seeking reason from her increasing unpredictable horse who was told to get on and ride the thing she did it hurled itself over a enormous bank side ways and died of a brain tumor she was luckily to escape badly battered .
I wonder how the vet who told her just to get on with it felt about that at the pm her husband demanded .

Are you nit picking ? The vet did not mention a particular client. It was a generalization . He's also astute enough to know the difference between an owner needing advice and one that is attention seeking and using their horse to satisfy a need for drama.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think you miss the point. It's a valid observation about a trait that may not necessarily be severe enough to impede the person's ability to function with daily living.
Not everyone with MBP will kill a family member. Those are extreme cases. Depression is similar in that it can range from a simple case of the blues to a psychotic episode.
The remarks by vets are based on their experience, I don't think it demeans anyone. It's part of being a vet (or doctor).

I did not say all people with MBP kill family members it's incredibly rare .
MBP does not cover the overprotective ,people with MBP harm people , people with Munshausens harm themselves .
The Overprotective are more likely to suffering from anxiety not the same thing at all or they are inexperianced and trying to do the right thing or they are on the forum a lot and realise most horses have ulcers , KS , cushings disease need a new saddle massive amounts of stuff doing to their teeth ( vet , EDT help which one Ahhh ) or perhaps a bodyworker or a chiro or a Bowen therapist . Ps that last bit is ironic .

 

[Flame_]

Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.

 

[Goldenstar]

Are you nit picking ? The vet did not mention a particular client. It was a generalization . He's also astute enough to know the difference between an owner needing advice and one that is attention seeking and using their horse to satisfy a need for drama.

If people call the vet to seek attention then I think thats profoundly sad I really do .

 

[Goldenstar]

Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.

Munshausens by proxy a mental illness where sufferers harm others often by say feeding them salt because they get hooked on the rush of it .
People with Munshausens harm themselves .

 

[MerrySherryRider]

MBP Munchhausen by proxy
An illness where a person damages hurts or harms someone or some living thing to get attention from medical professionals
Munchhuasens itself is self harming to get the attention of others usually doctors but may be other family members
sufferers can be so convincing they can endure serious surgical interventions and tend to be aware enough to go from hospital to hospital in order not to be discovered by appearing to often at one sometimes even travelling round the country and when wealthy enough round the world

The sufferer just commonly largely exaggerates or makes up symptoms.

At the far end of the spectrum, the sufferer may inflict harm of varying degrees.

Most of us have met someone who always has the worst flu, which is really a sniffle, and likes to make sure everyone knows about it.

 

[Flame_]

Munshausens by proxy a mental illness where sufferers harm others often by say feeding them salt because they get hooked on the rush of it .
People with Munshausens harm themselves .

Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.

Hypochondria is thinking your ill
People with Munshausens cause harm to them selves .

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.

I know this is a bit off topic, but hypochondria is when the person believes themselves to be sick. Munchausen occurs when the person lies and /or fakes an illness to gain attention.

 

[Goldenstar]

Munshausens is characterised by self harm .

 

[Flame_]

I know this is a bit off topic, but hypochondria is when the person believes themselves to be sick. Munchausen occurs when the person lies and /or fakes an illness to gain attention.

Yeah, thanks I get that. Never mind, I must not be making the point I was attempting to at all. Was just a thought, and like you say, OT.

 

[doriangrey]

Horses that can live comfortably if not worked but if put in work health or soundness issues show up.

Thanks for clarifying that. It's the term 'field ornament', sounds harsh. I have a retired mare, but would not regard her in that way, she's me friend!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Munshausens is characterised by self harm .

The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.

 

[Froddy]

Give her a decent bucket of grub and put her down at home.

Got to about page 18/19, not sure exactly as lost the plot

AA the voice of reason IMO

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yeah, thanks I get that. Never mind, I must not be making the point I was attempting to at all. Was just a thought, and like you say, OT.

I understood what you were getting at.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

I'm struggling to believe your selfishness Parisexx. You resent the fact that you could be stuck at home for another 10 years. God forbid if you ever have kids! You and OH been together 10 years but you bought the horse 8 yrs ago??? The horse: you can't be bothered to look after her any more and she no longer suits your current lifestyle. Great. Anyway, let's look at the options. It's unlikely you'd be able to sell her because of her age, her health problems and the fact that she can't be ridden. Horses that are given away often face very uncertain futures (because they're always given away for a reason). You could take her to market but she'd probably only make meat money. No charity would touch her unless you abandon her at the side of a road somewhere (please don't). Couldn't you find grass livery nearby and feed/rug her properly or is that too expensive as well? Now hear this: there are a lot...a LOT...worse things for a horse than being put down. A horse doesn't worry about tomorrow or next summer...it only worries about the NOW. If pts is done with compassion and dignity then you remove all the uncertainty of that horse ending up crammed alive in a meat wagon or abandoned and left to starve in a bare field. Do the decent thing and pts. Then off you go, away from mummy and have a lovely life.

 

[khalswitz]

The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.

It is deceit, and exaggeration or *causing* of symptoms in order to deceive. Causing symptoms is not considered high end, causing severe illness and death is high end.

Hypchondrism I agree many, many horse owners display this - and exaggeration of behaviour/severity of symptoms. Intending to deceive a vet, though? Most not.

Implying that a high % of horse owners are actively trying to deceive their vet for attention, and comparing a rational choice to PTS to that, is ridiculous.

The point of MBP, is that it is hard to spot because the assumption that a parent wants the best for their child is natural - not that they are inventing illness and causing symptoms for the rush it gives them to deceive medical professionals. So I'm suspicious of the vet (on a personal level, not medical) who can see that illness in so many clients, as it is notoriously difficult to spot for starters, and very rare. Doesn't say a lot of what he thinks of his clients either tbh.

 

[TarrSteps]

Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.

Although I might add resignation/acceptance. When there was less we could do we more easily accepted that there were limits and not everything was fixable.

Re the tangential discussion, I have met lots of paranoid owners (some rightly, some wrongly) but only one with full blown MBP and she was, frankly, terrifying. We didn't believe it for ages until the horse sustained a mild injury which she blamed on yard negligence, except that it was simply impossible for it to have happened in the way she said. I actually still remember the shock and horror when the yard owner and I realised that our joking diagnosis was probably true.

 

[luckyoldme]

I don t get this whole debate. I have a horse. He is 24 and at the moment he is sound and happy. I wouldnt evan consider any invasive treatment if he had colic or suchlike.thats because it is to exspensive for a horse of his age and ive allready given him 5 years of semi retirement. Does this make me selfish? Money does come into it...in the real world. Whatever the op s reason the horse is unaware of it. Your horse op dont feel the need to base your descision on what a load of strangers on the internet are saying.

 

[Mithras]

The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.

Exactly. The motivation may also be characterised by seeking out the attention of other people, especially those in positions of authority and in the professions.

Munchausens by Proxy is where the deceit is inflicted on a proxy ie a substitute.

Or deceit may not be involved, but there may be a psychological need for attention which causes the sufferer to believe that they suffer from a real problem.

OP - none of this is aimed at you in the slightest, its just that the discussion has moved on. Your problem is very much genuine.

 

[Mithras]

It is deceit, and exaggeration or *causing* of symptoms in order to deceive. Causing symptoms is not considered high end, causing severe illness and death is high end. I know a couple of genuine hypochondriacs and they just tend to make stupid decisions around horses, rather than exaggerate or imagine fake problems with their horses.

Hypchondrism I agree many, many horse owners display this - and exaggeration of behaviour/severity of symptoms. Intending to deceive a vet, though? Most not.

Implying that a high % of horse owners are actively trying to deceive their vet for attention, and comparing a rational choice to PTS to that, is ridiculous.

The point of MBP, is that it is hard to spot because the assumption that a parent wants the best for their child is natural - not that they are inventing illness and causing symptoms for the rush it gives them to deceive medical professionals. So I'm suspicious of the vet (on a personal level, not medical) who can see that illness in so many clients, as it is notoriously difficult to spot for starters, and very rare. Doesn't say a lot of what he thinks of his clients either tbh.

Who said it was a high proportion of horse owners? In real life, I've only met one, plus a farrier who seemed to attribute various fictional ailments to a high number of horses he shod, to impress their owners I suppose.

On here though the constant number of threads about pts is noticeable. I don't think its beyond the realms of probability that you could get a very mild manifestation of it played out by posting on a website about what is for many, the most taboo, final and private of things, and by constantly commenting on the topic and claiming to be an expert on it.

I became aware of it because I had a client who almost certainly had Munchausens by Proxy - its something anyone working in the professions has to be aware of, because sufferers so frequently try to attract attention from doctors, lawyers, etc for their perceived condition. The senior partner instructed me to research it in some detail and he concluded that it would be unethical to continue to take fees from that client. It was sad, but absolutely fascinating.

Some sufferers can be very clever in their deceit indeed, and it is important to realise that they may be suffering from an actual mental disorder and are not necessarily "bad" people.

I also suspect a lot of it has to do with control - sufferers of Munchausens by Proxy are known to target the professions for attention, because professionals are bound by professional standards of conduct and it is very difficult for them to refuse to take them seriously - they are almost compelled to listen to them, for a time at least.

 

[khalswitz]

Who said it was a high proportion of horse owners? In real life, I've only met one, plus a farrier who seemed to attribute various fictional ailments to a high number of horses he shod, to impress their owners I suppose.

On here though the constant number of threads about pts is noticeable. I don't think its beyond the realms of probability that you could get a very mild manifestation of it played out by posting on a website about what is for many, the most taboo, final and private of things, and by constantly commenting on the topic and claiming to be an expert on it.

I became aware of it because I had a client who almost certainly had Munchausens by Proxy - its something anyone working in the professions has to be aware of, because sufferers so frequently try to attract attention from doctors, lawyers, etc for their perceived condition. The senior partner instructed me to research it in some detail and he concluded that it would be unethical to continue to take fees from that client. It was sad, but absolutely fascinating.

Some sufferers can be very clever in their deceit indeed, and it is important to realise that they may be suffering from an actual mental disorder and are not necessarily "bad" people.

Actually, you guys did. "high incidence" to be exact.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.

My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.

I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld.

I would completely have understood if you had said HYPERCHONDRISM - but MBP, as you have said yourself, is a mental disorder, and I stand by my opinion that claiming that there is a "high incidence" and it is "on the up" is ridiculous. It's like saying that the high incidence of matchy on the forums is due to a rise in OCD...

I know what MBP is, I am sorry to say. And it is shockingly difficult to pick up on, especially when symptoms are caused by parents in children and presented to medical professionals. So I do think the comparison of horsy owners worrying about small/no symptoms, and needing to 'get on with it' as was quoted, to this illness are belittling what is a serious disorder.

I agree that there are too many threads on this subject, and personally I think it is very sad - I don't go around posting about the death of my loved ones, yes it is part of life but a choice between cremation, burial, whether to bring the casket home etc are very personal and I don;t feel should be shared, same as when pts-ing an animal - it's about respect. But I think comparing this to MBP is ridiculous in the extreme.

 

[Arizahn]

Hi all, moral dilemma here. I have a 20+ mare that I have owed for 6 years. Long story but didnt realise she was this old when I bought her (passport wrong/fake) .
Dilemma is that I cannot afford her anymore. I need /want to move out of home as im 25 years old and want to start a life of my own. Trouble is what to do with the mare?
She has sweet itch and arthritis but not currently on any medication. I dnt enjoy horses anymore and resent the fact that I could be stuck at home for another ten years or so and me and my OH desperately want a place of our own. Shes a lovely mare and its not her fault
Open to ideas please thanks

To get back to the actual topic of this thread.

 

[Pigeon]

Brave? Did you not see the part about the horse NOT being ill. This is a selfish and irresponsible act that is only because the owner can't be bothered any more. That is NOT responsible horse ownership.

I have an older horse and I get fed up with not being able to join in with everyone else jumping and schooling, but my mare is happy and is not ready to die just because I want to do more. She is 24 and could live for another 10 years. I will just have to continue to look after her well and enjoy her company until she is ready to go. Of course I would love a faster model and/or no responsibility, but I took on my mare and so I must look after till the end. I knew that when I bought her as an 8 year old and she has spent the majority of the time out of work or recovering, but that's just what comes with the territory. They are pets first and work animals second. You have to look after them even if they are no longer what you wanted.

What so palming her off on someone else is the responsible option?!?!? Putting her at risk of an uncertain future?

Horses don't know that they're being put down, their brains don't work that way. Far better a peaceful end than many of the (likely) possibilities.

 

[Mithras]

Actually, you guys did. "high incidence" to be exact.

I think you must realise that not everyone will know if you classify people in a certain way in your head. I have no idea whom you are referring to as "you guys". However I will repeat what I said above - I do not think that Munchausens by Proxy has a high incidence in the horse world at all. This is not the same however as its not existing, and it does have different levels of severity. Some sufferers may manifest just by talking about it and making suggestions.

I would completely have understood if you had said HYPERCHONDRISM - but MBP, as you have said yourself, is a mental disorder, and I stand by my opinion that claiming that there is a "high incidence" and it is "on the up" is ridiculous. It's like saying that the high incidence of matchy on the forums is due to a rise in OCD...

I know what MBP is, I am sorry to say. And it is shockingly difficult to pick up on, especially when symptoms are caused by parents in children and presented to medical professionals. So I do think the comparison of horsy owners worrying about small/no symptoms, and needing to 'get on with it' as was quoted, to this illness are belittling what is a serious disorder.

I agree that there are too many threads on this subject, and personally I think it is very sad - I don't go around posting about the death of my loved ones, yes it is part of life but a choice between cremation, burial, whether to bring the casket home etc are very personal and I don;t feel should be shared, same as when pts-ing an animal - it's about respect. But I think comparing this to MBP is ridiculous in the extreme.

No, I'm quite clear that its Munchausens by Proxy that I'm talking about, and it doesn't only attract people to seek attention from the medical profession. It is a phonomenon well known in all professions - I suspect its rarity is what makes sufferers stand out, and to anyone in a position of authority, whether they are a professional or not. Sometimes people seek to persuade an audience that what they are saying is true.

A horse could certainly be a proxy, and in many ways is an ideal proxy, as they cannot speak out for themselves. It is absolutely illogical to argue that no sufferer of Munchausens by Proxy could ever not use a horse as their proxy, or that that disorder could not eventually lead to putting to sleep that horse unnecessarily, or to talking about it in a less grossly manifested presentation of the disorder.

I'm not aware of any guidelines which restrict its manifestation to the limited and rather specific categories you outline.

 

[HazyXmas]

Anyone got any idea how the thread got here????

Poor OP, she must be very confused, i know that i am.

 

[undergroundoli]

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.

However I will repeat what I said above - I do not think that Munchausens by Proxy has a high incidence in the horse world at all.

Well, I'm confused.

 

[Mithras]

Well, I'm confused.

Oh well fair enough. I think we can assume that I now do not think it has a high incidence! I don't really concentrate when I'm writing on here, I do it for relaxation believe it or not! I think theres definitely an incidence of a manifestation of it, at varying levels.