WWYD in our situation?

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NellRosk

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We've been trying to purchase 11 acres for months now but problems keep getting thrown our way. It's perfect for what we want.. good off road hacking, mains water and electricity, 8 stables that can be opened out (our horses like to come in and out as they please) and good location for us. However the grazing is in awful condition, hardly any grass and loads of weeds, all fencing needs to be done.

The big problem we are facing is that the land has a restricted covenant on it. This is held by a woman who lives on the lane leading to the land. She has stated she does not want us to build on it. All we want is a small arena (which is invisible from the lane) and an area of hard standing for winter. We are meeting with her on Saturday to discuss this but ultimately I'm worried she will say no to all of this.

The dilemma is I'm worried we are paying over the odds for this land as the covenant was not made clear when we put the offer in. It is also an investment, we don't want to lose money on this land and if it all goes tits up we'd like to be able to sell it for the same we purchased it or more in years to come. If we go in with a lower offer now the seller is very likely to tell us to clear off as they are keen to sell (they inherited the land when a family member died and have been waiting for probate to clear for months now).

Would you walk away from the purchase? There is no way we'll find the same amount of land with water/ electricity in such a lovely off road area with off road hacking (roads are awful where I am now). But I don't want my whole time at the horses dominated by this woman on the lane dictating everything we can and can't do. Nothing is ever simple is it :(
 
All you can do is ask! I imagine she is thinking more along the lines a development of houses being build perhaps? What you're proposing is not out of the way at all. Would you eventually want to build a house on it to live there?
 
Before you go take some photos of the worst bits, then in "exchange" for you putting in some hard standing, exercise areas, be careful how you word it, you will make the whole place look more attractive, plant trees etc. it sounds like an eyesore now so if you can use that to your advantage she may come round, covenants are usually to prevent house building so again make it clear that is not what you want.
 
depends on the wording of the covenant and with that wording what is the definition of building. sometimes it means that you cannot build houses on it so you would need to have it looked at. I would be chatting to her along the lines of you want to make it look better and do not want it to be mud and horrible through the winter so want to have a small area put down where you can ride and where horses can turn out when the weather is bad (without floodlights as a lot of people and planners will say no to them if they are included in the application) so that the fields do not get ruined. discuss with her about what she thinks and stress that you are not wanting to build a house on there and that the improvement will give her a nicer view from her house. certainly with what you have said I would not walk away from it
 
Even without a restricted covenant, neighbours can find ways to make life difficult, so you could easily have the same problems with a different property. Go and meet the lady, you never know, she may be nice! You could do an arena with boards instead of fence, that will be less visible.

Personally I would go for it- 11 acres sounds like heaven. Is anywhere flat enough to school on the grass?

You will have to ask yourself, can you live without an arena? Because unless you buy a property that already has one, or has concrete planning permission for one, it is a possibility that you will have to face.
 
lottiepony said:
All you can do is ask! I imagine she is thinking more along the lines a development of houses being build perhaps? What you're proposing is not out of the way at all. Would you eventually want to build a house on it to live there?
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Well that's what we thought but sorry I should have mentioned, the estate agen advised us to put in writing what we wanted to do with it. We said we would improve the appearance of the land massively (as currently it is a wreck), remove all broken farming equipment etc. We said we wanted an area of hard standing to improve drainage at the front of the yard and wanted to build 'an area' (was careful not to use arena) to ride on. She came back to estate agent and said no to all of this. I have spoken to her on the phone and she says she doesn't want a huge livery yard because she's concerned about traffic on the lane which is fair enough. I said we would only have our 2 horses and a few friends and would absolutely not be operating a livery yard. This is when we suggested a meet up.

be positive said:
Before you go take some photos of the worst bits, then in "exchange" for you putting in some hard standing, exercise areas, be careful how you word it, you will make the whole place look more attractive, plant trees etc. it sounds like an eyesore now so if you can use that to your advantage she may come round, covenants are usually to prevent house building so again make it clear that is not what you want.
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We've done all this!! I can understand why she is concerned but honestly, we just want to improve it and could make it 10x nicer. We'd restore all the falling down stables and remove all the weeds and make it look loads better.

amymay said:
Was this lady the original owner of the land?
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She owned it 20 years ago and put the covenant in place when she sold it to the lady who has sadly died since.

crabbymare said:
depends on the wording of the covenant and with that wording what is the definition of building. sometimes it means that you cannot build houses on it so you would need to have it looked at. I would be chatting to her along the lines of you want to make it look better and do not want it to be mud and horrible through the winter so want to have a small area put down where you can ride and where horses can turn out when the weather is bad (without floodlights as a lot of people and planners will say no to them if they are included in the application) so that the fields do not get ruined. discuss with her about what she thinks and stress that you are not wanting to build a house on there and that the improvement will give her a nicer view from her house. certainly with what you have said I would not walk away from it
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Without looking it up again it's a very brief paragraph in the deeds which says something along the lines of 'the owner of the covenant must give written consent to any building work undertaken and also has the right to restrict any vehicles used on the land'. Yes that's a good idea about an all weather turnout space for winter, could definitely word it that way!! And she can't even see the land from her house!!

Pigeon said:
Even without a restricted covenant, neighbours can find ways to make life difficult, so you could easily have the same problems with a different property. Go and meet the lady, you never know, she may be nice! You could do an arena with boards instead of fence, that will be less visible.

Personally I would go for it- 11 acres sounds like heaven. Is anywhere flat enough to school on the grass?

You will have to ask yourself, can you live without an arena? Because unless you buy a property that already has one, or has concrete planning permission for one, it is a possibility that you will have to face.
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I think ultimately we could live without one. It just makes things hard in the winter but I think the security of our own land far outweighs the benefits of an arena. The only other massive thing that worries me is that we are paying far far too much for this land if the covenant will make it tricky to sell in future, should we ever need to. We are investing everything we have in this so it's not a light decision to make. And most of the land is on a hill but there's a flat bit at the top that we could school in in winter. I also know people within a 10 min hack away who I'm sure would hire their arena out to us.
 
It is very sensible of you to have a chat with her and get a signed agreement from her drawn up by a surveyor on what she is prepared to allow you to do (if anything). That way you know what you can do once you have purchased the field.
Hopefully in the future if you get on with her she may sell you her house and then you will have a nice self contained unit.
 
OWLIE185 said:
It is very sensible of you to have a chat with her and get a signed agreement from her drawn up by a surveyor on what she is prepared to allow you to do (if anything). That way you know what you can do once you have purchased the field.
Hopefully in the future if you get on with her she may sell you her house and then you will have a nice self contained unit.
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Yes that would be perfect wouldn't it! But honestly we are nice people (I'd like to think) and both the estate agent and solicitor have told her that the vendors could sell to people a lot worse than us. So we'll see what happens after the chat on Saturday!
 
What is your solicitor suggesting?
On the basis your EA didn't make the original covenant clear, I would be wary of accepting further advice from them! You solicitor should be able to advise what you can and can't do, and what the timescales are, and when the covenant will cease to be in effect. They will also be able to make sure the contract is in your favour as much as possible for permitted development, like more stables/shelters/barns/stores etc.

We looked at lots of land before deciding to not go down this road - all of the covenants stated no residential development of any sort, not even an agricultural tie but you could build buildings associated with agriculture and equestrian needs. As other have said, ask. But I wouldn't hold out hope on light the arena!
 
It sounds to me like she is most concerned about traffic on the lane than what the land looks like as she can't see it and possibly more building traffic than the arena itself etc. Also though you might only have you and a few friends once you have put arena in etc you will have set it up for possibly more commercial use if you were to sell it. A few friends also sounds non commital to me, it wouldn't matter if they were friends or clients to her if visiting daily.
 
ester said:
It sounds to me like she is most concerned about traffic on the lane than what the land looks like as she can't see it and possibly more building traffic than the arena itself etc. Also though you might only have you and a few friends once you have put arena in etc you will have set it up for possibly more commercial use if you were to sell it. A few friends also sounds non commital to me, it wouldn't matter if they were friends or clients to her if visiting daily.
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A "few friends" is a livery yard it may not be huge but having other people paying to keep their horses there means it is a business and there will be extra traffic and potential for further growth, running a livery yard is one way of possibly getting planning consent for building a home, if you do plan on having liveries then you may be best walking away as the covenant will restrict the use, it will make it tricky to sell and if you invest heavily in improvements you may not get it back as there is little upward potential on the land with the restriction in place.
 
meleeka said:
What happens to the covenant once she pops her clogs?
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Nugget La Poneh said:
I think bumping off covenant beneficiaries is generally considered poor form :D
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Whilst it did cross our mind.... (kidding :D) The covenant gets sold with the house so if/ when she dies it would still be in place. We looked at getting it lifted but solicitor advised it would cost as much as the land to take to court etc.
 
be positive said:
A "few friends" is a livery yard it may not be huge but having other people paying to keep their horses there means it is a business and there will be extra traffic and potential for further growth, running a livery yard is one way of possibly getting planning consent for building a home, if you do plan on having liveries then you may be best walking away as the covenant will restrict the use, it will make it tricky to sell and if you invest heavily in improvements you may not get it back as there is little upward potential on the land with the restriction in place.
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Yes this is our concern exactly, whilst we do not want a livery yard obviously our friends would not be keeping their horses there for free. The thing is we'd be having more of a full livery yard as my mum is semi retiring in the New Year so there wouldn't be a lot of traffic as most of our friends work full time so would only be coming up at weekends. And we are worried that we'll spend 15k on fencing and 15k on an arena then not making anywhere near back what we paid for it/ spent improving it.
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
What is your solicitor suggesting?
On the basis your EA didn't make the original covenant clear, I would be wary of accepting further advice from them! You solicitor should be able to advise what you can and can't do, and what the timescales are, and when the covenant will cease to be in effect. They will also be able to make sure the contract is in your favour as much as possible for permitted development, like more stables/shelters/barns/stores etc.

We looked at lots of land before deciding to not go down this road - all of the covenants stated no residential development of any sort, not even an agricultural tie but you could build buildings associated with agriculture and equestrian needs. As other have said, ask. But I wouldn't hold out hope on light the arena!
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The solicitor has been bloody useless to be honest, he didn't tell us about this covenant until about 8 weeks into the buying process and it's taken about another 6 weeks to actually see a copy of said covenant. Estate agent is similar, they just seem to be batting us off to one another and not really giving us any answers!! One thing is it does say for agricultural use only but the woman has stated she doesn't care what's kept on the land. This was a concern for us as agri can mean that absolutely no horses are kept on it at all!
 
Even if only weekends with 6 spare boxes that has potential to be a fair amount of traffic and poss trailers etc. I'd probably say no if I were her as essentially you will be running a livery yard regardless of whether the clients are friends or not
 
NellRosk said:
The solicitor has been bloody useless to be honest, he didn't tell us about this covenant until about 8 weeks into the buying process and it's taken about another 6 weeks to actually see a copy of said covenant. Estate agent is similar, they just seem to be batting us off to one another and not really giving us any answers!! One thing is it does say for agricultural use only but the woman has stated she doesn't care what's kept on the land. This was a concern for us as agri can mean that absolutely no horses are kept on it at all!
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I am confused. Are you:

a) bound by what ever the woman allows? If so could she change her mind.

b) bound by specific restrictions specified in the covenant?
 
Good luck with the meeting, it seems as though it could be a mine field, especially if the woman changes her mind about what is kept on the land, you'd end up well and truly stuffed.
 
NellRosk said:
Whilst it did cross our mind.... (kidding :D) The covenant gets sold with the house so if/ when she dies it would still be in place. We looked at getting it lifted but solicitor advised it would cost as much as the land to take to court etc.
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Yes but you can buy them .
Covenants are a pain but they can be a manageable pain .
Agree in advance ( hopefully ) what you need to build stressing that it's all stuff needed for the enjoyment of the land school ,hardstanding etc .
the time to agree things in now when she is thinking she's going to get a nice block of money .
Good luck you never know she might be perfectly reasonable about it .
 
I think i would want to clarify the traffic restrictions, it seems to suggest the type of vehicle as well as the volume?? what if she suddenly doesn't want a tractor to pass or hay lorry , also the land use , as you say she might not mind horses now but they need to be officially agreed upon, seems to me she wants it all ways and will be a pain in the arse, however if you don't want to share tea and cakes with her later i would try and reach a compromise with her now and be super nice! as long as all the legalities are met it doesn't really matter if she's not your best mate later on
 
LD&S said:
Good luck with the meeting, it seems as though it could be a mine field, especially if the woman changes her mind about what is kept on the land, you'd end up well and truly stuffed.
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Covernants would not give that type of right it's might prevent you building a big shed but they can't stop you using the land in the way it was used before .
 
NellRosk said:
The solicitor has been bloody useless to be honest, he didn't tell us about this covenant until about 8 weeks into the buying process and it's taken about another 6 weeks to actually see a copy of said covenant. Estate agent is similar, they just seem to be batting us off to one another and not really giving us any answers!! One thing is it does say for agricultural use only but the woman has stated she doesn't care what's kept on the land. This was a concern for us as agri can mean that absolutely no horses are kept on it at all!
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It might take a time to get the fine details I guess. From my personal experience (I'm not sure about the rules of property adverts) but all the land for sale round here is made reasonably clear on the sales particulars that there is a restrictive covenant on the land - the price would then normally reflect this.

Has the solicitor not offered a reason for the delay?

What you're going through is the reason we held off as we knew that's what we'd be up against. You can never ask to many questions, but you might need to start listening to your gut instincts and make the decision to pull out now and incur costs that could be far less than what you will spend in the future trying to fix things
 
If it's an agricultural restriction you have a problem she ( or her successors )can complain any time they want and then your in trouble .
Have you checked that your solicitor has checked properly that the land has the correct planning status for equestrian use if it has not that is a bigger issue than the Covernants.
 
Get a new solicitor - reporting on title deeds is one of the first things I'd do for a client. As to the covenant, unless you can get her to give her consent in advance (documented legally in writing) then I'd advise you to walk away. Do you know if you'd get PP for the arena/hard standing anyway?
 
NellRosk said:
Whilst it did cross our mind.... (kidding :D) The covenant gets sold with the house so if/ when she dies it would still be in place. We looked at getting it lifted but solicitor advised it would cost as much as the land to take to court etc.
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We looked into covenants a few years ago and I'm pretty sure they expire when the person dies. We actually wanted to tie one to our house.
 
Honestly, if it were me, I'd either put in a lower offer to reflect the hassle of the covenant, or walk away. Probably the latter.

I'd also find a new solicitor.
 
cobgoblin said:
We looked into covenants a few years ago and I'm pretty sure they expire when the person dies. We actually wanted to tie one to our house.
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Not all of them, unfortunately :( The last one we looked at had a restrictive covenant in place for 75 years, with 45% of the uplift in value payable to the vendor and any successive heirs for successful development, but was at least buildable but our solicitor basically said that as it was a new covenant, to walk away. If it was 30+ years into it you could risk it being overlooked as the heirs are likely not known or traceable for whatever reason. There were others that were in place for eons and you couldn't fart without consulting counsel :D
 
Do you know anyone who could do you a nice drawing as to what the finished place will look like? That way rather than her putting down everything you want to do she can see how nice it will possibly look.
 
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