WWYD in our situation?

[Velcrobum]

If the land does not have equestrian use but just agricultural use you could find yourself in trouble with the planners. Be aware of this. When we put in an arena we had to do a change of use and planning application. Some planners are very picky, there have been people who had show jumps on agricultural land and got into trouble. Depends on the planners.............

 

[Snuffles]

Sorry if I have misunderstood but someone mentioned 6 spare boxes ? These would need pp as would a livery yard I believe.

 

[Annagain]

She must be open to compromise or she wouldn't have agreed to meet. I'd go along with an open mind and be ready to listen as well as talk. Ask her what improvements she would like to see and if they're doable, agree to them if she'll agree to what you want. Make a list (just for you) of things you want to do on a sliding scale of importance from the walk away deal breakers to those you could live without and see what she'll compromise on.

"A few friends" sounds like you're trying to be very vague on the numbers. I would tell her exactly how many horses will be there (I'm guessing it's 4 or 5 and not closer to 10?) and that owners will only be there at weekends so it's just one car most of the time. Offer to put 5mph speed limit signs up on the lane (not enforceable of course but it might help ease her mind). Explain that the whole reason you've bought it is because you want somewhere quiet all to yourselves and you're actively trying to avoid a busy livery yard - you wouldn't be buying your own place if you were happy with a livery yard environment. If you walk away, the next people may not be after somewhere so quiet.

Hope it works out for you.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

OP, I hope you get this sorted.

You mention 'traffic' in this covenant, using the shared access road.
Have you thought about how many car movements a day? If just you & sister all week, coming twice a day, thats 8 car movements a day.
Factor in an extra 4 mates at a weekend & all coming twice a day to their horses, also factor your/their family/friends etc, and you can see how easily a covenant that has restrictions on vehicle access, could be easily broken, and how much it could pee the covenant holder off.........

Be very careful in any negotiation.
Perhaps explore the possibility of perhaps finding another way to access this land via another track/access? Still wont help the ethical side of any covenant but could remove the access potential issue.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes this is our concern exactly, whilst we do not want a livery yard obviously our friends would not be keeping their horses there for free.


And we are worried that we'll spend 15k on fencing and 15k on an arena then not making anywhere near back what we paid for it/ spent improving it.

Erm, but what you are proposing IS a livery yard, with paying 'friends', on land which is currently registered as agricultural.

This would probably be tricky to get past the planners even without the covenant in place. Of course the liveries will generate extra vehicular traffic.

How good is the access road? Wide or single track? Well surfaced?

 

[NellRosk]

Even if only weekends with 6 spare boxes that has potential to be a fair amount of traffic and poss trailers etc. I'd probably say no if I were her as essentially you will be running a livery yard regardless of whether the clients are friends or not

But the thing is the land will be getting sold regardless. I know if I were her I'd prefer me and my family with my 2 horses and then a maximum of 4 others on a well maintained yard than the previous tenant who had upwards of 30 (yes 30!!) Shetlands and Welshies that she just bred and bred and did no maintenance on the land.

I am confused. Are you:

a) bound by what ever the woman allows? If so could she change her mind.

b) bound by specific restrictions specified in the covenant?

The covenant is very vague, it basically just says that anything we want to do has to be agreed in writing by her. So she could change her mind at any time

Good luck with the meeting, it seems as though it could be a mine field, especially if the woman changes her mind about what is kept on the land, you'd end up well and truly stuffed.

Well exactly.. this is our concern! We really don't know whether to walk away or proceed, but I think we'll know a lot more on Saturday after the meeting.

 

[NellRosk]

Yes but you can buy them .
Covenants are a pain but they can be a manageable pain .
Agree in advance ( hopefully ) what you need to build stressing that it's all stuff needed for the enjoyment of the land school ,hardstanding etc .
the time to agree things in now when she is thinking she's going to get a nice block of money .
Good luck you never know she might be perfectly reasonable about it .

We're really hoping she'll be reasonable GS! Thing is she isn't even the vendor of the land so won't be getting any money for this..

I think i would want to clarify the traffic restrictions, it seems to suggest the type of vehicle as well as the volume?? what if she suddenly doesn't want a tractor to pass or hay lorry , also the land use , as you say she might not mind horses now but they need to be officially agreed upon, seems to me she wants it all ways and will be a pain in the arse, however if you don't want to share tea and cakes with her later i would try and reach a compromise with her now and be super nice! as long as all the legalities are met it doesn't really matter if she's not your best mate later on

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the covenant doesn't specify traffic restrictions on the lane.. that's just a personal concern of hers and a reason why she's making things difficult for us. The covenant can only cover the land and she can restrict vehicular use on this. We're going to ask what she means by this as we have a trailer so would be useless buying land we can't keep it on!

It might take a time to get the fine details I guess. From my personal experience (I'm not sure about the rules of property adverts) but all the land for sale round here is made reasonably clear on the sales particulars that there is a restrictive covenant on the land - the price would then normally reflect this.

Has the solicitor not offered a reason for the delay?

What you're going through is the reason we held off as we knew that's what we'd be up against. You can never ask to many questions, but you might need to start listening to your gut instincts and make the decision to pull out now and incur costs that could be far less than what you will spend in the future trying to fix things

No there was literally no mention of a convenant until we were months into the buying process (it had to go to probate to sort the will so this took a while). We are so annoyed about this. The fact it then took weeks more for us to actually see it has made us suspicious. The price does not reflect a covenant either!

If it's an agricultural restriction you have a problem she ( or her successors )can complain any time they want and then your in trouble .
Have you checked that your solicitor has checked properly that the land has the correct planning status for equestrian use if it has not that is a bigger issue than the Covernants.

Another point we are worried about.. it just says agricultural use currently but has had horses on for 17 years so I think we're fairly safe it's okay for horses.

Get a new solicitor - reporting on title deeds is one of the first things I'd do for a client. As to the covenant, unless you can get her to give her consent in advance (documented legally in writing) then I'd advise you to walk away. Do you know if you'd get PP for the arena/hard standing anyway?

We've paid out a lot on searches already so we didn't really want to have to change, especially as we were so close to signing before. I think if we try change solicitors the vendors will get fed up of waiting . I think we'd get PP for hard standing/ arena... at least that's what current solicitor said but I don't really trust them anymore!

We looked into covenants a few years ago and I'm pretty sure they expire when the person dies. We actually wanted to tie one to our house.

This covenant gets sold with the house unfortunately.

Honestly, if it were me, I'd either put in a lower offer to reflect the hassle of the covenant, or walk away. Probably the latter.

I'd also find a new solicitor.

This is honestly what we're thinking right now, just fed up to be honest but going to see what happens after Saturday..

Do you know anyone who could do you a nice drawing as to what the finished place will look like? That way rather than her putting down everything you want to do she can see how nice it will possibly look.

No I don't know anyone but that is a fab idea, worth looking into if we decide to go ahead

 

[Goldenstar]

But the thing is the land will be getting sold regardless. I know if I were her I'd prefer me and my family with my 2 horses and then a maximum of 4 others on a well maintained yard than the previous tenant who had upwards of 30 (yes 30!!) Shetlands and Welshies that she just bred and bred and did no maintenance on the land.



The covenant is very vague, it basically just says that anything we want to do has to be agreed in writing by her. So she could change her mind at any time



Well exactly.. this is our concern! We really don't know whether to walk away or proceed, but I think we'll know a lot more on Saturday after the meeting.

You don't need to accept her wording of the Covernants if it's being set up for the first time you can negotiate .I have done this myself I did not like the wording of the Covernant When I was buying a wood so I negotiated with the seller and came to an agreement .
The holder of a Covernant can't give permission for things and then change their mind however you can't run a livery yard without having permission for equestrian business use there is no recognition for just a few friends paying you either are private use or you are running a business which would need LA agreement and a rating inspection as well.
Equestrian buildings not within the curtlage of a home can attract rating even if for private use only .
If you solicitor a generalist or do they have special experiance in equestrain/ land matters if not you might need a specialist or advice from a land agent who works in this field .

 

[mariew]

By the sounds of it unless you will be able to get the covenant lifted, she choses what happens and you need anything she agrees with legally drawn up and agreed on so it is part of deeds (whatever) going forward. My guess is it could be lifted at a very expensive price, if she needs money. If she doesn't, you're just going to have to speak to her to see what her concerns are. It's all in the wording and regardless of planning permission I think you need to meet with her then personally i would walk away if it turns out non-negotiable. Obviously her covenant doesn't negate planning permissions required (if any) from the council. I presume you have checked what kind of planning area the piece of land is in (area of outstanding beauty etc) - these also cause problems!

We were looking at something that had both planning issues as well as a total covenant by a neighbour as to whether you could build on a piece of land. We stopped considering this at this point, just not worth it. Even if by some miracle you would have got planning permission, the neighbour could put a stop to it.

 

[NellRosk]

Sorry if I have misunderstood but someone mentioned 6 spare boxes ? These would need pp as would a livery yard I believe.

I might be getting confused now but there are currently 8 stables, we don't want to build anymore

She must be open to compromise or she wouldn't have agreed to meet. I'd go along with an open mind and be ready to listen as well as talk. Ask her what improvements she would like to see and if they're doable, agree to them if she'll agree to what you want. Make a list (just for you) of things you want to do on a sliding scale of importance from the walk away deal breakers to those you could live without and see what she'll compromise on.

"A few friends" sounds like you're trying to be very vague on the numbers. I would tell her exactly how many horses will be there (I'm guessing it's 4 or 5 and not closer to 10?) and that owners will only be there at weekends so it's just one car most of the time. Offer to put 5mph speed limit signs up on the lane (not enforceable of course but it might help ease her mind). Explain that the whole reason you've bought it is because you want somewhere quiet all to yourselves and you're actively trying to avoid a busy livery yard - you wouldn't be buying your own place if you were happy with a livery yard environment. If you walk away, the next people may not be after somewhere so quiet.

Hope it works out for you.

Yes that's a good plan and we'll do that. I'm not going to be passive aggressive or confrontational at all, what will be will be. And it is very vague because people are flakey and we don't actually know who'll come once we're up and running! Obviously when we've told friends we're getting land they say 'oh yes we'd love to come' but obviously when push comes to shove you can't rely on people. We would have 4 friends max (we already have 2 horses) so the max amount of horses is 6 although I imagine 1 or 2 might drop out when it comes down to it. Thank you, I'll certainly update on what happens!!

OP, I hope you get this sorted.

You mention 'traffic' in this covenant, using the shared access road.
Have you thought about how many car movements a day? If just you & sister all week, coming twice a day, thats 8 car movements a day.
Factor in an extra 4 mates at a weekend & all coming twice a day to their horses, also factor your/their family/friends etc, and you can see how easily a covenant that has restrictions on vehicle access, could be easily broken, and how much it could pee the covenant holder off.........

Be very careful in any negotiation.
Perhaps explore the possibility of perhaps finding another way to access this land via another track/access? Still wont help the ethical side of any covenant but could remove the access potential issue.

Thanks Fuzzy. Sorry if I mentioned traffic restrictions earlier, I can't remember saying that but I must have got confused. There are no restrictions in the covenant on the lane, just purely the land but it is the woman who's concerned about the extra traffic. She said as it is there's tractors going up and down the lane and there's also a shoot that go up and down several times a day during the season. I could have pointed out she chose to buy a house on a farm track but didn't... see earlier point about not saying anything passive aggressive! And there is actually another track at the top of the land, on Saturday we were going to explore the possibility of accessing it via this... lots to think about!!

Erm, but what you are proposing IS a livery yard, with paying 'friends', on land which is currently registered as agricultural.

This would probably be tricky to get past the planners even without the covenant in place. Of course the liveries will generate extra vehicular traffic.

How good is the access road? Wide or single track? Well surfaced?

Well yes technically but to be honest, 99% of the land round here is not sold for private sole use so the likelihood of this happening to our land is very very small. What I'm trying to say is we are not the worst people that could be buying the land. We're quiet and respectful. I've been on enough awful livery yards to last me a lifetime and never want to go through that again!! It's single track with passing places and poorly surfaced.

 

[NellRosk]

You don't need to accept her wording of the Covernants if it's being set up for the first time you can negotiate .I have done this myself I did not like the wording of the Covernant When I was buying a wood so I negotiated with the seller and came to an agreement .
The holder of a Covernant can't give permission for things and then change their mind however you can't run a livery yard without having permission for equestrian business use there is no recognition for just a few friends paying you either are private use or you are running a business which would need LA agreement and a rating inspection as well.
Equestrian buildings not within the curtlage of a home can attract rating even if for private use only .
If you solicitor a generalist or do they have special experiance in equestrain/ land matters if not you might need a specialist or advice from a land agent who works in this field .

It's been in place for 20 years so not being set up for the first time . Yeah I think if we walk away from this and do find more land we'll be getting a land agent, this was the solicitor that the EA recommended and they have been awful. I ring them most days and they just don't return my calls or emails anymore! A few times I've considered driving into town and demanding they speak to me!!

By the sounds of it unless you will be able to get the covenant lifted, she choses what happens and you need anything she agrees with legally drawn up and agreed on so it is part of deeds (whatever) going forward. My guess is it could be lifted at a very expensive price, if she needs money. If she doesn't, you're just going to have to speak to her to see what her concerns are. It's all in the wording and regardless of planning permission I think you need to meet with her then personally i would walk away if it turns out non-negotiable. Obviously her covenant doesn't negate planning permissions required (if any) from the council. I presume you have checked what kind of planning area the piece of land is in (area of outstanding beauty etc) - these also cause problems!

We were looking at something that had both planning issues as well as a total covenant by a neighbour as to whether you could build on a piece of land. We stopped considering this at this point, just not worth it. Even if by some miracle you would have got planning permission, the neighbour could put a stop to it.

Yeah there is no way we could afford to get it lifted, it would cost the price of the land again. Haha I don't think anyone has ever called where we live a place of outstanding beauty but jokes aside I think we would get planning for what we need. My friend has a yard literally a stones throw from our potential new one (you can actually see it) and she has got planning and built a large arena, hardcore track and area of hardstanding with a field shelter. We'll have a much better feel of what we'll do after Saturday I think, fingers crossed!

 

[ester]

Re. She should rather you had it than someone else, well as she gets nothing out of the sale I don't see why she is likely to be any less difficult to any other buyer which might mean it doesn't sell for rather a long time which wouldn't bother her at all. I think she holds rather a lot of the cards ATM! And she sold it with that covenant for just that eventuality.

Also I mentioned the 6 spare stables for livery just on basic math not suggesting you were building any bit if there is 8 and you have 2 horses

 

[NellRosk]

Re. She should rather you had it than someone else, well as she gets nothing out of the sale I don't see why she is likely to be any less difficult to any other buyer which might mean it doesn't sell for rather a long time which wouldn't bother her at all. I think she holds rather a lot of the cards ATM! And she sold it with that covenant for just that eventuality.

Also I mentioned the 6 spare stables for livery just on basic math not suggesting you were building any bit if there is 8 and you have 2 horses

Oh yeah I know that, but all I'm saying that it will get sold eventually! I'm with you now I've been off work dying with food poisoning today so brain not engaged. Just sat in the house stewing! But we'd need at least 2 of the stables for tea room/ tack room. We did at first want a metal container for that but have abandoned that idea..

 

[Clodagh]

I imagine you may need to offer to repair and upkeep the access road? That might sweeten her up - and will cost you a fortune. I would walk away, what if one of your horses neighs at 6am and she objects?

 

[NellRosk]

I imagine you may need to offer to repair and upkeep the access road? That might sweeten her up - and will cost you a fortune. I would walk away, what if one of your horses neighs at 6am and she objects?

Well there is that. She said she had no objection to horses being on it though so that's a plus I guess. At the moment it just sounds like a huge amount of stress and hassle though

 

[MrsNorris]

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally, far too risky, and your EA and solicitor want shooting, what on earth are you paying them for if not to inform you of this sort of thing? And to have let the sale go this far before bringing it to your attention, that's truly shocking.

 

[Goldenstar]

The EA is not working for OP .
The solicitor ,perhaps they are more used to dealing with the purchase of nice houses in neat estates all the same no brain power required .

 

[NellRosk]

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally, far too risky, and your EA and solicitor want shooting, what on earth are you paying them for if not to inform you of this sort of thing? And to have let the sale go this far before bringing it to your attention, that's truly shocking.

To be fair to the EA they didn't know about the restricted covenant.. it came to light when the solicitor found it in the deeds!

The EA is not working for OP .
The solicitor ,perhaps they are more used to dealing with the purchase of nice houses in neat estates all the same no brain power required .

Yes I think that's it. I actually managed to get through to solicitor today and said that I was majorly reconsidering and that I'd seen other land for sale where it said in the ad there was a covenant on it (land was completely unsuitable and too expensive but still wanted to get my point across). He said they hadn't known about it until he informed us. But surely it should have been brought to our attention a lot lot sooner??

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I think I'd be considering finding a new solicitor and not paying the current one, since they haven't done their job properly.

 

[Jnhuk]

Surely it is the sellers and their EA who should be liable for not being fully honest at the start regarding the convenant rather than the solicitor who found it in the deeds?

I would see what the face to face meeting brings but you maybe need to advise the sellers of the land that value of their land is not what they thought with the convenant and they should have been more honest upfront as you have wasted time and money trying to purchase this land.

 

[gunnergundog]

Your priorities and those of this lady are different - therein lies the problem. You appear to want some nice land for your two neds and a few friends paying livery to subsidise the cost of your acquisition.

The lady concerned appears to value her privacy and peace and quiet and would therefore find one person more appealing, albeit with 30 ponies and the land degrading as opposed to multiple people going up and down several times a day - even if only at weekend - and the land being kept pristine.

You need to understand what is important to her in order to negotiate.

 

[tristar]

my experience of property dealing is if there are problems now they will most likely get worse, they may well get sorted later, but it will be a load of hassle,.

the best advice i can give you is to find a solicitor whose expertise is land law

i`ve been there several times and its always worked in the end , but if you want to spend time with your horses instead it could wear you down.

 

[NellRosk]

Your priorities and those of this lady are different - therein lies the problem. You appear to want some nice land for your two neds and a few friends paying livery to subsidise the cost of your acquisition.

The lady concerned appears to value her privacy and peace and quiet and would therefore find one person more appealing, albeit with 30 ponies and the land degrading as opposed to multiple people going up and down several times a day - even if only at weekend - and the land being kept pristine.

You need to understand what is important to her in order to negotiate.

I do understand what's important to her but please don't make us out to be the bad guys here. But I think some sort of compromise needs to be made. The house I live in is on a farm track; on the farm there's also some liveries. I don't begrudge tractors going past my house and cars because... I bought a rural house on a farm track. The thing is her house is not even on the lane in question, it forks down to the left and the yard is to the right at the junction. So cars wouldn't even be going past her house! And anyway the covenant doesn't cover the lane anyway so it's irrelevent! But we'll see what Saturday brings .

 

[NellRosk]

my experience of property dealing is if there are problems now they will most likely get worse, they may well get sorted later, but it will be a load of hassle,.

the best advice i can give you is to find a solicitor whose expertise is land law

i`ve been there several times and its always worked in the end , but if you want to spend time with your horses instead it could wear you down.

This is our main concern. At the moment we're just fed up. It will take a lot of time, money and work to get this land up to scratch and we really don't need added obstacles! If the chat goes well we'll get in writing what she'll approve (arena/ hardstanding) and if not then we'll just cut our losses and walk away

 

[honetpot]

First of all she sold the land with the covenant on and god knows what has gone on for several years. I would go to the land registry and get your own copy of the land registry record, it about £10, can not understand why the solicitor was being such a plank. Then look hard what it actually says.
I would then go on google earth, Facebook and prove what was there and how long its been there, so that on planning law its been there for over four years, so you can get retrospective planning permission if needed.
If there have been 30 plus horses there , there has obviously been regular access, get people to confirm this, and any other information about the amount of people who went there. The rubbish got there somehow.I would imagine the covenant has been broken( 30 horses probably means breeding business) and she is trying to re-establish it.
It not her right to put in objections before you actually do anything and actually on past form she will probably do nothing. I would just meet her and really just be pleasant and listen, if you are lucky she will reveal how much went on there and for how long and write it all down.
Remember it here interests to put you off, she sold it, has the money and I am sure she would rather it was vacant. But you can haggle with the venders for money off.

 

[Cobbytype]

If I were in your shoes I think I'd be inclined to go ahead with the purchase and try to circumvent any potential issues as best as possible if/when they arise.

With regards to a potential problem with change of use from agricultural to equestrian. As the land has been used for over ten years for equestrian purposes, if push came to shove and you are reported to the planning authorities you could request a Lawful Development Certificate.

With regard to the building of an arena. Are there ways to get around the need for pp for this with something like an area of bark chippings for schooling purposes which may not require planning consent? I realise it's not ideal, but in the short term it might help you ease yourselves into the neighbourhood and reassure the lady that you're not going to cause her disturbance. Maybe not having a lesson at 6.30am on a Sunday morning with my old instructor whose voice was like a foghorn and who could be heard throughout the village barking and shrieking non-stop

It's a shame to abandon an opportunity such as this - we spent years looking for a small parcel of land locally and it's something we've never regretted.

 

[Tyssandi]

We've been trying to purchase 11 acres for months now but problems keep getting thrown our way. It's perfect for what we want.. good off road hacking, mains water and electricity, 8 stables that can be opened out (our horses like to come in and out as they please) and good location for us. However the grazing is in awful condition, hardly any grass and loads of weeds, all fencing needs to be done.

The big problem we are facing is that the land has a restricted covenant on it. This is held by a woman who lives on the lane leading to the land. She has stated she does not want us to build on it. All we want is a small arena (which is invisible from the lane) and an area of hard standing for winter. We are meeting with her on Saturday to discuss this but ultimately I'm worried she will say no to all of this.

The dilemma is I'm worried we are paying over the odds for this land as the covenant was not made clear when we put the offer in. It is also an investment, we don't want to lose money on this land and if it all goes tits up we'd like to be able to sell it for the same we purchased it or more in years to come. If we go in with a lower offer now the seller is very likely to tell us to clear off as they are keen to sell (they inherited the land when a family member died and have been waiting for probate to clear for months now).

Would you walk away from the purchase? There is no way we'll find the same amount of land with water/ electricity in such a lovely off road area with off road hacking (roads are awful where I am now). But I don't want my whole time at the horses dominated by this woman on the lane dictating everything we can and can't do. Nothing is ever simple is it

No I would not walk away - the land condition and fencing is small fry and you can repair in time.



I would go meet her and be extra nice and get her onside and maybe show her some pictures of what it will be like and where you are thinking of putting it so she has an idea what it looks like. Some come round to it un due course and maybe in a few years she may move on and it can be done at a later stage.


If you go in like a bull in a china shop it will get her back up, I would leave it as they are now and in time when you get to know her she may think differently.

 

[Clodagh]

I assumed -never do that - that the traffic would be going past her house, if it is not that makes life easier.

 

[Leo Walker]

I do understand what's important to her but please don't make us out to be the bad guys here. But I think some sort of compromise needs to be made.

Thats the problem. You want and expect her to compromise, but she doesnt have to, which well she knows which is why she put that covenant in in the first place

 

[Sparemare]

My husband calls covenants 'development blockers'. The land at present is classified as agricultural green belt is that correct? If you got planning permission for an arena - which involves a load of draining and tons of sand, hardcore etc coming in, the land gets reclassified as having amenity use, which is quite different from grazing. I wonder if the covenant holder is aware of this? When we put in our arena the planner told us that if we wanted to go for housing at some stage in the future it would be more likely to be granted because the land now has amenity use.