wwyd? lazy horse, fed up owner!

I could have written that exact post althought we have slightly less trouble hacking, but everything down to the resenting riding her and being close to tears so this has been an intersting read! Mine is generally fine once shes going just needs a reminder to keep going every so often, but it is the initial transition that is slow and reluctant, everytime i ride we go up down up down every possible transition and get to the end of the session and think we have made an improvment, get back onnext day, back to square one! if i get really tough verging on the point of cross with her she goes amazingly but then it makes me feel worse that i feel like i have to beat her up a bit to get some good work! I now bring mine in for 6/8 hours a day with a haynet, and hard feed twice a day, bog chaff and microfeed and linseed oil - so far has not made much difference as far as i can tell but has only been a week. Trying to stay out of the school and hacking more and trying not to give her the option to switch off seems to be helping! i agree its great having a nice quiet type but i also find it a bit heart breaking that she can go so amazingly but just doesnt WANT to unless her hand is forced, that is what im struggling with, need to make a decision whether this is the job for her :( - going to hunt her over the winter and see what happens! i wish you luck OP!
 
Hunt! Mine has gone a bit sluggy compared to normal, hoping hound exercise will give him his mojo back, normally works, he just finds general riding boring. Its about a month since we did anything really exciting and it shows !
 
It's really interesting how people instinctively shy away from using force, yet that's the only solution that seems to be offered on these threads. It is nicely dressed up in acceptable language (a tap, a good short slap, a real good smack, it's just the noise). Stop and ask yourself... if these work, why do they work?

They work because the horse is now working to *avoid* the smack, slap, noise, because it is either painful or unpleasant. If it wasn't either painful or unpleasant, they wouldn't put any effort into avoiding it.

Now ask yourself, when your horse is moving briskly and responding snappily to your aids... why is he or she doing it? Is it because you now have a bond? Have developed trust? Because the horse is really enjoying it? Or is it because, at some point in your training history, you have taught the horse "go forward or there will be unpleasantness"? The key thing about this method is that while it works, you must then stay on top of things for ever after. If the horse subsequently gets even the slightest hint that you are dozing and might not follow up on your threat, all motivation to do anything quickly disappears... because they're not actually doing it for you... all along, they were doing it to avoid the unpleasant consequences. This is why in so many cases, people write about how things slid back and they had to start again. Or how, after a break, the horse seemed to revert to being "lazy" again.

Now, given that we are uncomfortable about using even mild force, and given that we know it only works as long as the horse thinks we will back up our quiet threats (a quiet threat is the lovely gentle leg aid, which means "do what's asked or the slap will follow), would we prefer to move to a method that allows us to motivate the horse by teaching it that responding quickly to aids and being keen EARNS REWARDS? :D After all, that's how we work... we do the bare minimum when not performing results in penalties (how many people drive extra carefully only when they know there's a speed camera or a police patrol, and the rest of the time drive more or less at the speed limit...) and we amp up our performance when we think there might be a chance of a reward (how much extra effort goes into grooming on the day of a show?).

It is possible to improve the performance of a "lazy" horse using reward (although I prefer "unmotivated by what I'm currently offering" to "lazy" ;) ). Learning how to do it isn't completely straightforward, but imagine how nice it feels when a horse offers of their own accord to work with us, rather than having to be either nagged or motivated by a short, sharp slap? If this does appeal to anybody (and I appreciate many may still prefer the traditional route), I would suggest having a look at Connection Training - this is at the heart of what they're doing and it might just transform how you see your horse (and indeed, how they see you :) ).
Shawna Karrasch is one of the people behind Connection Training, and here's a short response from her on a similar topic to the original question :)
http://shawnakarrasch.com/blog/2012/12/12/horse-doesnt-move-forward-from-leg-cue-or-to-a-cluck/
 
My mare can be VERY lazy when it comes to work, having weekly lessons really improved her, lots of fast hacks etc. My previous RI was a huge fan of me using the schooling whip to ask instead of nagging. Also lots of jumping as she loves jumping

At the moment I'm resigned to her being out of work for a while (I'm pregnant) but my plan is to bring her back into work as if she's a baby (she's 11) and totally reschool her to make her much easier
 
An old instructor of mine had a mantra. "Click, Kick, Stick" It works!
It's not quite as it seems as the "kick" stage was actually two stages. Make a clicking noise and if no reaction, gentle kick followed by sharp kick and finally use your whip. My boy only gives you just enough to get the job done but goes on a click nearly every time and certainly goes on the first kick if we get that far. He also does a downward transition if I say "good boy" so I've had to train myself to say 'well done' instead if he's being good and I want him to continue!
She maintained you ride a lzy horse as if it's whizzy so no nagging with legs and a whizzy horse as if it's lazy so lots of leg. Although it sounds wrong, it sort of makes sense!
 
merlin12 said:
Cobs can be hard work.
Click to expand...

No, cobs can be badly schooled, just like any other animal. That's not necessarily a reflection of yours, OP, he's young and there's plenty to consider on here. But cobs can (and should) be trained to move off the leg in a mannerly fashion and this attitude of "well cobs are just like that" really annoys me - talk about blaming your tools!

My old cob has always been mannerly off my leg, as is one of my highlands. Fergs is naturally more backward, but he responds to my leg because he respects it, and there are serious consequences for ignoring it. I have no qualms about sending a horse forwards dramatically, assuming it is fit, sound and capable of offering what I want...
 
I would really want to know that there is no physical problem before anything else. A vet check and possibly bloods. Also remember that it's a youngster and might need some time off.
Maybe he's just lazy, but I would want to be very sure before using a stick all the time.
 
JFTD said:
No, cobs can be badly schooled, just like any other animal. That's not necessarily a reflection of yours, OP, he's young and there's plenty to consider on here. But cobs can (and should) be trained to move off the leg in a mannerly fashion and this attitude of "well cobs are just like that" really annoys me - talk about blaming your tools!

My old cob has always been mannerly off my leg, as is one of my highlands. Fergs is naturally more backward, but he responds to my leg because he respects it, and there are serious consequences for ignoring it. I have no qualms about sending a horse forwards dramatically, assuming it is fit, sound and capable of offering what I want...
Click to expand...

Agree. Not that I am suggesting it is definitely the cause OP, but fitness, suppleness, balance and the general ability of your horse to be able to do what you are asking is all something to take into consideration. My mare, though not as 'lazy' as you say yours is, did have the tendency to be a bit of a struggle to get working correctly, though she was quick off the aids in transitions, she seemed to be reluctant to go up that extra gear within the paces and I really struggled. My instructor has been schooling her whilst I am pregnant, and it's taken a lot of hard work, but she is a different horse now, and a lot of it was down to her fitness/suppleness - she was struggling herself to do what I was asking, and that coupled with my lack of fitness to a certain extent was making it almost impossible, and pretty unpleasant, to school her.

I've also been doing a heck of a lot of groundwork/lunging with her (as it's all I can do to try and keep her fit in between my instructor schooling her twice a week), and using a pessoa (well, a copy), starting off in the first few months on the lowest setting to allow her to stretch, then building her up to the second setting. I'm just at the stage now where I can actually control the tempo and speed of her trot by voice on the lunge and the difference in her is amazing. She's balanced, has rhythm and consistent in her work (though canter still needs work), and what I've found is that she's a lot more willing to listen and try what I am asking with little resistance. A lot of it is a confidence thing with her too - it's as if she was always 'hanging back' in her paces because she was unsure of herself, her balance and lack of strength to do what was asked.
 
Assuming that he is fully sound & bloods are fine, It sounds like you have effectively 'trained' him not to go forward by nagging with your legs and accepting no forward movement. Personally I would give him a kick, then a good flap/touch with whip- anything to send him forward as once you've failed to send him forward he's learned he doesn't have to! Not blaming you OP, no rider is perfect! Maybe you could get some lessons to help- beat of luck ;)

The fact that he did go forward when you made him (spat the dummy!) tells me that he is capable but evading your aids.
 
I have come to the conclusion that I do need to feed Frank for the work he is doing, and the fitter he is and the more I can feed the better he is. He does get quite a lot of oats these days (and not much grass ;)).

He is also quite whip proof and inclined not to be off your leg/will try not to although conversely he is actually quite responsive. I had a lesson the other week with a FBHS which was really interesting with regards to getting a few more tools in the bag and looking at exactly how I ride him - and how much of his 'laziness' at the start is more likely due to stiffness. He saw how little response a smack got/how hard you would have to use it to get a proper response - although it usually only takes the once in a session but I hate having to go through that every bloomin time! - and suggested making a noise with the stick instead (that doesn't really work either! as F blankly ignore him).

I have recently tried to be even stricter with myself with not nagging, I had been trying to get legs off = forwards but the FBHS pointed out that I was only taking them off from the knee down - He wanted them off from the hip so that they are only ever used when I want something. Work in progress. - Also being as good with my position as I can so that I am not blocking him (tendency to nag/grip with legs essentially results in blocking).

I prefer to ride without spurs and with 2 schooling whips - mostly because this means I can tap up whichever hindleg I want to without having to change over etc.

I think it is a combination of ability/fitness to do what you are asking, feeding for the level of work and being strict with yourself. A friend rode him last night and exclaimed he was really off the leg and responsive after a few minutes of their initial warm up so he perhaps isn't as bad as I portray him as her eventing TB about to go novice can get really stuffy and even worse if you put your leg on.
 
I would be wondering - does he REALLY know what your nudge with your leg means, and is he adequately conditioned to react to it without question. It might be worth going back to a voice aid (on the lunge if necessary) and ensure that he responds instantly to it. Reward him by not repeating (he has done it, no need to keep on ;) ), taking the pressure off, whatever you think. Once you have him conditioned to go forward from the word, preface the word with your leg aid - LIGHTLY. So he knows the leg aid is followed by the word - operant conditioning as in Pavlovs dogs - and he is conditioned to respond to the word. Soon you will no longer need the word but (and it is a big BUT) you must never use your legs to nag, and you must never block the response.
Then use transitions to consolidate and at the same time engaging his hinds - a lot of so called lazy horses are just dragging themselves around on the forehand. But take care, just remember the cue needs to be as light as possible and not desensitised by constant use, think legs OFF all the time!
 
I know a cob type who really benefits from a summer clip. I know you say he is not used in the heat of the day, but if he has a thick summer coat, this may be something to consider? It has been fairly muggy/humid recently, even in the evenings.

As well as this, if he is 6 and you have upped his workload then are you sure he is getting enough energy from his diet? There are feeds that are energy giving and non-fattening or less fattening, and if he is in enough work to need feed for energy, it shouldn't cause him to put weight on.

There is lots of good advice on here about reschooling him to be more off your leg, and hopefully that will work, maybe alongside giving him a small feed?
 
Sounds disheartening OP. I have a little cob who was completely dead to the hand and leg. I thought that once he lost weight and learnt leg means go it woulds be better, but no. My instructor suggested physio, who said that he was lacking in strength and balance and couldn't physically do what he was being asked (poor fellow!), he was 4 at the time. Nearly 2 years on and lots of ground work and pole exercises and he is much better. We are working on a lightest touch on his side for go, and most of the time he responds, I use the whip occasionally, but more often use it to wave or slap my boot to give him a 'listen to me and pay attention'. My daughter had a horse who had historically had a badly fitting saddle, even with the pain gone she would nap and cow kick if you used a whip. We were recommended a whip whop or giddy up rope, which is basically a natural horsemanship name for a soft plaited rope with a tassely end, you use it in the same manner as kiddies use their reins when you are doing mounted games in a flip flap on each side of the neck they can see, hear and feel it. It worked a treat and we just used it until she got the idea that going forward didn't hurt. I see you have physio coming out, see what they say and let us know how it goes.
 
In addition to the very good advice you've already been given, I have three other things that I've found help this problem.

Blue Chip Original calmed the over excitability at shows and also increased the stamina in general. The horse wasn't any faster or any more responsive, but he stopped trying to slow down every 30 seconds and we no longer had the excitable/asleep/excitable/asleep thing going on. This allowed me to work on the schooling for responsiveness.

If you stable at night, ride in the morning before turnout as a fresh horse is naturally more lively.

Take him to new places, he needs mental stimulation. Even places you don't want to go like dressage comps when you like jumping or a hack round the local housing estate to look at the roadworks. Try putting some music on when you school (not an ipod for you, music for him) or setting up a home made trec course or doing gymkhana games. Take every opportunity to do something different.
 
I can't begin to explain how useful so much of this advice is!!! And glad I am not alone in a few places!

Dont laugh when I say I am printing this thread out to be able to read alot of this advice.

Thank you all so much!!!!

I have a lot to consider and some time off for him is in the bag while I put everything in place and get my head straight, I want to enjoy him and if he can go forward through the slightest touch is a dream come true and I really see now that I need to come right back down to basics and reestablish every thing from the ground up including myself!!

Love this forum, thank you thank you all xxxxxxxxxx
 
I suspect it is lack of vitamins, minerals and salt. grass is high in potassium so you will also need to supplement magnesium and calcium to rebalance his system. it may take a week or so to have an effect and if he has learned behaviour probably at least one tussle with him. Also make sure he is drinking enough. If you don't feed at all his levels of vits and mins will be depleted and this causes bad behaviour ( lazy horses more lazy, sharp ones more sharp etc) A 600kg horse needs 3 tablespoons of salt in hot weather per day, most get nothing like that. Levels are very low in horse feed and they get very little from salt licks. you will need some chaff for him to eat it in and make sure its not molassed as this will make him worse. have a very laid back warmblood and this has made him very forward going, like you I was fed up with squabbling with him. He is now forward going and very much the horse under saddle that is forward going under his own steam. and he is happy. Worth a try. I have tried over five years all the bumping, leg sharpening tricks, ropes with knots in etc non worked for more than one or two rides, he now swings off in trot straight away and really powers in canter. Has stopped spooking and tried lowering the salt to see if it was real and he started straight away, backed off my leg and spun etc. Upped salt and within 24 hours back to a jolly ride . He does not do this when in 24/7 so figured it must be the grass and researched on google.
 
You probably need to try a management change, feed salt and minerals, give him a couple of hours in the stable to empty his gut before work, find something he likes and arrange his work around that, I think I would start off with a few weeks not riding, but I would be doing some long reining some loose jumping, things that should make him more interested, nothing that would be considered stressful, but you need to keep his weight under control.
He may be unwell, so that has to be considered, sometimes a vitaminB injection will give them a jolt, and thus indicate a problem. There is also liver function and I am sure other problems to be considered.
He may of course be a plod, but even a plod should respond to aids, so both an experienced instructor and a vet are indicated.
 
Last edited:
Mitchyden said:
I have an Arab mare that was incredibly lazy to the extent I'd have to use a schooling whip out hacking. It became such a chore for me especially around August time when I felt I could have got off and carried her quicker than we were moving!

I decided to have her tested for Equine Cushings as lethargy is a symptom and although she was only 6 at the time, it came back positive. Now she is on medication, she is more forward going although from around now until November she is still very lazy. I believe this is due to the seasonal rise in her ACTH levels so I arrange my competition season around this.
Click to expand...

cushings will produce the lethargy/laziness problem you describe. It certainly did for my 6yo.
I would make sure a horse did not have cushings, which means due to illness it cannot help being lethargic, before I used a stick, my leg or any other methods of motivating it.
 
PeterNatt said:
Sounds like he has got a lovely laid back temperament. If you are not happy with him then I am sure that there are plenty of people out there that would love to own and ride him.
Click to expand...

A horse which is unresponsive to the aids is not a horse which many people would want to ride. Being of a quiet temperament has nothing to do with being unresponsive.
 
I was also in the same situation with my own mare, was doing all the work all the time, was fit to cry every time I got off her. Then I got her seen by a chiropractor and her poll and pelvis was out and the poor divil was in pain.. is like a different mare now. Would you consider getting him checked by a chiropractor just in case? :)
 
Thanks again for more very thought provoking answers! Couldnt possibly pick all of them to reply to individually so do forgive me!! Just picked a couple to highlight!! Thank you everyone!!!

cptrayes said:
How fat is he?
Click to expand...

He isn't lean, but he is actually slimmer than he has been in previous years. However no, you can feel his ribs but I am not happy with his shoulders or hindquaters and he does need to shift a few kg's.

A vicious circle of course that I haven't been feeding him and he is out on v v poor grazing (shale wooded area with unfertilised pockets of grazing) but this of course could be a major benefactor to having no energy to shift himself when asked to help get rid of excess weight!

PeterNatt said:
Sounds like he has got a lovely laid back temperament. If you are not happy with him then I am sure that there are plenty of people out there that would love to own and ride him.
Click to expand...

Moomin1 said:
A horse which is unresponsive to the aids is not a horse which many people would want to ride. Being of a quiet temperament has nothing to do with being unresponsive.
Click to expand...


Thank you moomin.

Peternatt I would not put a novice or nervous rider on him. Reason a) in the school he would not move, I mean literally they may get a small crawl out of him.
b) out hacking the crawl would become slower and he would without doubt forget to pick up his feet, falling over and pitching them off.

He has a gorgeous temprement and I appriciate him down to the very bones of him, however his downfall comes from his laid back attitude and I see no reason not to better him and develop his potential which is very much there!!!

I find your response rather rude and I do not want people believing I don't care about him, he is the absolute love of my life. Having issues with your horse doesn't mean he isn't in the right home, it means I care enough to make our partnership better!!!!


Small update: I have brought him in, and as per a previous reply I am treating him as pre-laminitic (farrier checked him friday and he isn't but suggested the hay may be too rich for him as it is) as it can't harm him!! He is on 12hr soaked hay and has started a broad spectrum balancer plus I have spoken to my vet yesterday who suggested red cell or propell plus to try and spark him up first off incase of underlying virus or just feeling a bit blurgh. I got propell as that is what the shop had in, and if ridden work does not improve after a week of rest and more time in then he is going to come and do full blood work.
Fingers crossed!!
Physio is being booked and we have a lesson for next monday if he feels well enough.
 
This is how my boy is when he is pre-laminitic. Unfortunately we didn't know this until he had a full-blown bout but we now know to watch him like a hawk. Pre laminitis is not always obvious so if it does turn out to be that, don't beat yourself up about it as you are taking steps to deal with it.

Otherwise, transitions transitions transitions! I understand that it's exhausting for the rider so maybe stick to 30min intense sessions until he gets a bit more responsive. Some great exercises have already been posted so I won't repeat any more, I hope that he improves.
 
Great reply, thanks. It sounds like you are doing your best, but the only other horse I have seen like this had EPSM and sore feet. I think I would have him tested for Cushings and EPSM if he was mine. One is a blood test, the other a biopsy of muscle from near the tail. If they come back clear then I would be trying the squeeze, kick, whip technique that others have described to you.
 
Thanks Cptrayes, for peace of mind I am certainly considering a full diagnostic run down for him. Just can't be too careful and I have let this slide for too long :(

Teabiscuit I am showing my ignorance now! Heads off for a through google!!
 
From my experience with my haffy I would say it really sounds like his attitude and a schooling issue, and God knows it is not easy to work with those type of horses. I had never met one quite this backward until her. It seems so obvious to some 'just give him a tap!' My haffy is not an easy ride at all, I have had other people ride her, seen her kicking out and plunging when she's had enough, she's very nappy and will test and test you! The fact that she is so strong sometimes now is really just another evasion. I try to make it so that my requests are VERY achievable, all about rewarding good work, even if that is walk and halt which is our default!

She's improved ten fold over the past few months, she's 7, and honestly she has matured a lot in general.

Brightbay that video could have been about my mare, right down to the breed and the leg resting!! It's uncanny! Hey I'm open to positive reinforcement definitely, I've just found it difficult to implement when ridden.
 
teabiscuit said:
Try the epsm diet, if he responds to it, Bob's your uncle .
Mine of info on Google, and chronicle of the horse forum.
Click to expand...

Darn why did I forget that!!! So easy, and much cheaper than a biopsy! Feed very low carbs, no added sugar, 500ml of oil (supermarket will do) a day, (build it up our he'll get the squits) and 12,000 iu of vitamin E. The cheapest way to give vitamin E is to buy the human gel capsules online and cut them up into the feed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top