WWYD - Loan/Sell/Persevere/Give my head a wobble?

AShetlandBitMeOnce

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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Apologies in advance for the essay!!

So most of you will probably know of Dex through my posts but I am having a bit of a moment with it all.. The last month or so he's had his back up, bronced a few times and been a bit spooky and testing me a bit more, but nothing remotely nasty or that would challenge a confident every day rider, but it is challenging me somewhat and he's gone from being a horse you'd put your granny on and could do anything with a smile on your face, to one that I am having to manage and adjust what I am asking because I am getting slightly nervous of what is coming, when he has his back up you can immediately and considerably feel it and it's really disconcerting. I have had this before for a week or so come coat change time but it's usually short lived, whereas this is ongoing.

It's honestly making me question everything and wonder just what to do. Is this just a moment, or is this the new him now he is 5.5yo and the kevins are setting in.

Pain? He had surgery for an OCD bone chip in his stifle in June easy surgery and no arthritis or cartilege damage apart from one crack that isn't that major, came back into full work from thatover 3 months, had the joint medicated 3 weeks ago now as it was slightly swollen but it's gone down completely and signed off sound, it's definitely not his usual pain reaction as when his saddle hurt he went stuffy and didn't want to move, not spooky and back up broncing. We x-rayed fetlocks, feet, hocks, other stifle and full spine/neck when he first went lame just to check and the vet said they are about the cleanest xrays he's ever seen. He also has monthly bodywork sessions and nothing of note there. Dentist came a month ago. Saddle Fitter a month ago. He has also had really wonderful lessons interspersed with dickhead behaviour, so it feels like it's mood related.

Overfed? He grazes from 7:30am till 4pm on fair grass and has 15kg of good quality hay overnight, he gets 1/3 stubbs scoop of Dengie happy hoof molasses free, a joint supplement, boswellia and I added valerian in when they swapped from night to day turnout about 7 weeks ago (that's when it feels like this all started). So nothing much for a 17.1hh 700kg animal really.

Turn away for winter? Problem with this is I love my yard and I would lose the space, as I cannot afford to pay for two places. Spaces rarely come up and I don't know another yard anywhere near here that I would want to be, literal hens teeth livery space. Plus this may be pushing the issue down the road, and he'd lose even more muscle.

I don't want to give up on him too soon, but I make considerable sacrifices to keep him now I have the house to pay for, and I am just not feeling any joy from it and other than after the odd good lesson I haven't since he had his surgery really - he was going so well then too. I don't have the money to have him pro schooled, and if this is just his adult attitude that wouldn't fix it anyway.

I don't think he's saleable due to the surgery, and do I want to sell him? He's brilliant usually in every other way. Good to clip, bathe, dentist, handle, travels well, behaves fab away from home, groundwork is brilliant, does great liberty work, great to hack would nanny youngsters, first or last, hold gates, not arsed about dogs, cows, tractors, traffic or otherwise. Easy to turnout with others, respects fencing, tidy in the stable and a super nice person to be around. No vices at all.

But I also don't think he's really loanable due to the time of year.

WWYD?!
 
Clodagh said:
Loan him to a hunting home. Carefully vetted etc etc.
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I thought about this but we have deep country around here, and I'm not sure I'd want a big 5yo with fairly recent stifle surgery to be hunting deep country. Without the surgery I'd consider looking up north where the country is slightly more forgivable than in Sussex
 
In your situation I would stick him on Danilon for 2 weeks. Week 1 I would do normal routine and note all my observations - weather, temperature, what you did and how he was. If he is better then it kind of gives you an answer. If no change, week 2, I would work him a lot harder, again noting any changes. If no improvement I would be concerned. If an improvement, week 3, I would continue working hard with no Danilon and observe. Essentially you will know a lot more by the end of doing this and have more data as such.

To add to the data I would lunge on hard, on soft and video. Then do same on Danilon under same conditions.

Other things I would do - buy a decent antacid and feed it one week before starting Danilon and work. Handful of chaff before any work. Feed antacid twice a day and before work. It won't heal ulcers but they can improve on it quickly and it's more data. On Danilon, I would continue to feed antacid.
 
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Cloball said:
I'd be a bit suspicious it's sort of come on since his surgery. Could he have found the whole thing quite stressful and developed ulcers?
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He came back into work like a lamb for the 3 months post surgery - totally his normal self, and then this started at time same time we changed onto day time turnout from night time which was about the beginning/middle of Sept.

He could be ulcery and I'll definitely keep it on the backburner as an option, it's always an option with a change in behaviour, but overall it's not shouting ulcers to me - he is happy with his girth and being saddled, he's not super negative/ears back/sensitive to the leg, his coat/condition looks great and he's the same happy go lucky him on the ground. The other issue I have is that his insurance has been used this year due to the surgery and it being a per annum limit, not per claim, so I don't have money to throw at investigations right now.
 
Pain causes ulcers. My husband got ulcers this year from three back to back injuries at work. He was unbelievably foul tempered and explosive and just not himself at all. He also developed sour smelling breath at which point I put my foot down about going to the GP. Within days of starting the meds I had my sweet, kind husband back. They must really hurt!!

A Bute trial would worsen ulcers and thus worsen behaviour; it should improve symptoms if there is still pain.

I would check worming first though - two of mine are super sensitive to any worm burden and the first I know of it is them dumping their riders.
 
My cob was a terror at 6 - he deserved his nickname the Hooligan. I have found a pectin / lecithin mix great for grass flush and gut issues. He's definitely sharper at the moment which i think is grass.

I did have both the vet and a very experienced physio take a look when he was being a terror and there was nothing obvious. Tbh once I'd given myself a kick up the backside and decided he needed to be ridden forwards he remembered his manners.

ETA after reading Maya's post - his tapeworm burden has been a nightmare to shift which i don't think helped
 
The whole yard is on a worm testing programme every quarter so definitely not worms, we just tested for worms and tape.

I do think the grass flush hasn’t helped! Bute trial definitely looks to be the next step, I guess it may answer both questions as if he gets worse all of a sudden then it’s ulcers.. and in the meantime I’ll save for a bootcamp. I was blindly hoping that he’s such a genuine horse the Kevin’s won’t be so bad, and really he’s not, but I guess I’m more broken/pathetic than I believed myself to be!
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I was blindly hoping that he’s such a genuine horse the Kevin’s won’t be so bad, and really he’s not, but I guess I’m more broken/pathetic than I believed myself to be!
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Don't do yourself down, like you said earlier this is supposed to be a fun hobby. If it turns out that he is just testing you past the point that it's fun, there's no shame in employing a professional to do that bit for / with you. Your happiness and confidence are too important, if you can afford to pay for help then....that's why professional riders and trainers exist!
 
I wouldn’t turn him away as like you said - he needs to keep the muscle around the stifle to help keep it comfortable. Why don’t you be a bit easier on yourself and do do groundwork with him for a bit? Lots of polework/walk poles to help him use himself without going crazy. Is there any particular thing that makes him buck or is he even like it walking down the road?
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
He came back into work like a lamb for the 3 months post surgery - totally his normal self, and then this started at time same time we changed onto day time turnout from night time which was about the beginning/middle of Sept.

He could be ulcery and I'll definitely keep it on the backburner as an option, it's always an option with a change in behaviour, but overall it's not shouting ulcers to me - he is happy with his girth and being saddled, he's not super negative/ears back/sensitive to the leg, his coat/condition looks great and he's the same happy go lucky him on the ground. The other issue I have is that his insurance has been used this year due to the surgery and it being a per annum limit, not per claim, so I don't have money to throw at investigations right now.
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The only thing I’d say to this is don’t get stuck on the ‘classic’ ulcer symptoms. Of all the horses I have had scoped and had ulcers, they have all presented differently. Every one of them had a shiny coat, 24/7 turnout with company, well covered (or fat!). Only 1 has been girthy and aggressive. She is my classic ulcer symptom horse but to the extreme. Rears and will take herself almost over backwards, ear pins and is worst around food.
One was super anxious, frightening to hack and would plant and pin ears if asked to trot in the arena, but never showed the slightest objection to being saddled/girthed or handled in any way and other than being more anxious was always lovely to handle.

The others have been more subtle. Two have seemed a little shut down, with eyes a bit staring instead of soft and engaging. Of those two, one is good in the school but far more anxious and spooky out hacking. The other was a bit stressy out hacking and a bit back up and feeling like she would buck in the arena. My young horse who isn’t backed was camping under and would kick when you picked his hind feet out.

The worst ones have had pyloric ulcers. The mildest have had squamous only.

Sadly in my experience, putting off a scope has just led to prolonging the problems and every time I wish I had done it earlier. My vets can do it at home, think it cost me about £250, which I know isn’t cheap but does at least give a definitive answer either way.
 
I also would question the valerian and consider a slow withdrawal of it until off it completely and monitor.
In humans it’s advised not to be taken longterm, and there are side-effects. It’s mainly used as a sleep aid during difficult nights, stressful times, for sedation, rather than a constant ongoing dose.
It’s become a popular equine supplement without any testing at all, as a constant dosing agent, and I’m not sure why, as it’s pretty powerful.
My personal experience with it is daytime drowsiness, dizziness and a ‘can’t be a*sed’ attitude with irritability due to feeling a big drugged sedated still, that’s on a small dose 1/3tsp decocted in tea the night before.
The dose matters with these supplements too - so either trial dropping the dose, or withdrawal of it altogether. Especially if his behaviour started after starting on it, suggests it’s a worthwhile candidate for consideration.
 
If the problems coincided with the change in routine, then I'd think ulcers and start there - try equine exceeds step 1 gut supplement if you can't go down the investigatory route at the moment - it is excellent stuff. And definitely ditch the valerian
 
Number of possibilities:
Not enough exercise - 16 hours stabled is a fair bit. Does he need more work?
Ulcers - stabling + recent surgery- high risk for ulcers
Other pain
I think you need a competent vet to check him for pain +- scope or trial ulcer treatment + check saddle.

None of which are insurmountable but if he used to be a happy chap and is now not happy something is probably the issue.
 
My gelding got a bit weird on valerian. I keep it around as an aid for short term stress, i.e. box rest or Nov 5th, but don't give it as a regular thing. A few years ago, I put Hermosa on valerian for some reason (can't remember), and man, it made her act totally weird. Whatever I was trying to solve (like I said, can't remember), it totally f*cked with her head. When she was on box rest in June, I gave her like 5mls. That was kind of okay, but wouldn't use it for anythng else.

Dengie Happy Hoof has alfafa in it. That doesn't get on with every horse. I don't give Fin alfafa products. It ends badly. Both of mine are on Dengie Meadow Lite.
 
I would immediately stop the Happy Hoof quite a lot of horses can't tolerate alfalfa. If that doesn't work I would add Aloe Vera juice to his feed to protect the stomach lining and wean off the valerian. If you really think he needs a long term calmer try magnesium but do everything gradually and monitor carefully. As above, I would give him plenty of groundwork rather than riding to keep yourself safe but I think 16 hours is a long time inside for a big 5 yr old.
 
I give Fin ashwagandha powder. When it ran out a couple months ago, I didn't buy a new baggie, to see if it actually made a difference. Both me and my sharer found him spookier to ride and less attentive. It clearly does something, and he's not had any weird side effects. I put him back on it, and within a week, he was as normal as he ever is.

I've recently got it for myself. Jury is still out. Not sure if it cures serious seasonal depression or helps with insomnia.
 
Dengie Happy Hoof. Main ingredient alfalfa.

Alfalfa, alfalfa pellets, rapeseed oil, vitamin and mineral premix, postbiotics, yeast, prebiotics, herbs (oregano, cinnamon, ginger, rosemary and thyme)

Some horses, my saintly IDx included, cannot tolerate alfalfa at all. I have posted before how once I accidentally gave her about 200ml of alfalfa pellets meant for another horse. It took 48 hours for her to come down from the ceiling, she was WILD.
 
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