MidChristmasCrisis
Well-Known Member
So many good suggestions and thoughts above I can’t add anything except I’m sorry this is happening and I hope it’s teenagery belligerence and passes soon.
WWYD - Loan/Sell/Persevere/Give my head a wobble?
- Thread starter AShetlandBitMeOnce
- Start date
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Thank you for all the replies everyone! I will try and get back to your suggestions separately, so many thoughts are super helpful.
To summarise though: I have binned the Valerian this AM (already titrating down so not a sudden change), I will take him off the alfalfa based feed (and I think put him on Allen & Page Fast Fibre) and I will call the vet on Monday to query how much a scope is - I think I would rather do this and than a bute trial straight away as if it is ulcers I don't want bute to worsen. I will also continue doing bits with him within his 'comfort zone' to keep him entertained.
To summarise though: I have binned the Valerian this AM (already titrating down so not a sudden change), I will take him off the alfalfa based feed (and I think put him on Allen & Page Fast Fibre) and I will call the vet on Monday to query how much a scope is - I think I would rather do this and than a bute trial straight away as if it is ulcers I don't want bute to worsen. I will also continue doing bits with him within his 'comfort zone' to keep him entertained.
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AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I added it in just after, and he has been on it before for a short period last time we changed turnout with no ill effect - but I have put it in the bin this morning as we were titrating it down to take him off it anyway, I have never really also seen much of a calming effect with it in all honesty.
I know my original post has made it sound worse than it is, he's only bronced twice in all honesty and one was in a clinic in high wind with another horse kicking off, but it's just the change in attitude to tense and having his back-up which is his version of the threat, from super easy and willing that is more concerning. You can feel immediately when his back is up as soon as bum hits the saddle so I haven't been pushing it to that point but just doing a little walk work and then calling it a day.
It's honestly not that he has definitive moments enough to pin point it like this, as I have said to SP above, it's more of a change in attitiude than he has big explosive moments.
I will take him off it to err on the side of caution, but I'm sure he's had alfalfa prior and been okay. Believe me I'd love to have him out 12 hours a day, but if I want him to have more turnout I'd have to sell him, it's that simple - we are surrounded by clay and everything is either hock deep in mud or closed Oct to Mar. He has done 2 years on this routine in the winter and has been absolutely fine after the first week or two of adjustment.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Did you scope and treat or just go in blind for treatment and see if they improved?
Jacksie
Well-Known Member
I don’t know where you are in the country and if you have access to this but there are some vets who just scope for ulcers. They’re often better value than using your own vet practice or your vets may do scoping days at a lower rate. I’d advise scoping so you know what you’re dealing with especially as they don’t always clear on first treatment and so you could mistakenly rule them out, thinking you’ve treated and it can get costly
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Speaking g
Speaking from personal, human experience, reactions to food can build up over time. You (one) can eat something for years, apparently with no problem and then develop noticeable symptoms which prompt investigations.
My own worst affected horse had to be fed on alfalfa because sugar and cereals caused her problems but her most obvious symptom was unpredictable explosiveness.
Speaking from personal, human experience, reactions to food can build up over time. You (one) can eat something for years, apparently with no problem and then develop noticeable symptoms which prompt investigations.
My own worst affected horse had to be fed on alfalfa because sugar and cereals caused her problems but her most obvious symptom was unpredictable explosiveness.
lme
Well-Known Member
Treated and gave instructions to the yard that she have backup haynets in addition to her normal loose hay so she always has forage. There's not much difference in cost and our vets know our horses well. I do think the switch to in overnight is hard on them because they go from being in 8-10h during the day (probably with time hand grazing and/or being ridden) to being in 14-16h.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Your latest update also sounds like you are scared of him - this + an excited or unhappy 5 yr old has massive ramifications. I'd suggest see if you can weedle out some local suggestions of a good young rider ( cheaper than pro) who is good at riding youngsters to come ride 2 times to see how he gets on with them also
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I'm not scared of him, that's a bit far, I just don't enjoy the 'what's coming next' feeling he's giving me and don't want to feel like this for the remainder of his ridden life, or even the next two years, if it is the kevins.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
Tbh I would also be looking at any neurological issues. Maybe speak to the vet or chiro about doing some perception tests? Tail pull whilst walking, crossing hind leg at halt and seeing if he corrects himself.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Has been done - I always ask this to be done as part of a lameness work up as it's no extra money and you never know, he passed it both before the surgery, after and post medication 3 months down the line.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I've gone in blind (horse not insured) treated for a month, weaned off slowly and only had an issue the following year at same time. 2nd time I treated with the off the counter stuff and my own version of colicare.
Young horses can be reactive though. I'm gently trying to coax a friend into getting some ridden support because her 5yo is being a bit of a madam. Nothing obvious medical (better on a gut support) but i think a more experienced rider right now would either deal with the tantrum or have a better feel for not quite right.
rextherobber
Well-Known Member
I have treated a horse for ulcers without scoping, a little while after a vet hospital stay. Vet suggested it, said " it would be a miracle if he didn't have ulcers after the time he's had". Followed the treatment with Ron Fields ulcer supplement. If you suspect the current issues with Dex are a combination of the operation, change in turnout hours and his age, maybe speak to Simon at Trinity Consultants, they do a supplement called Evenkeel which doesn't have Valerian in, but does help with anxiety and tension. How is he if you just hack out?
spotty_pony2
Well-Known Member
Is there a possibility you could get someone really confident and experienced to sit on him once or twice per week? This might help, as he may be feeling that he is intimidating you. (I know a few like this) and it might break the habit. Alternatively just do what you feel confident with over the winter. It’s meant to be an easier time for both horses and riders. Pick your days, don’t ride in high winds. Maybe give him a quick lunge before you get on if he’s a feeling fresh.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I do have a fabulous pro friend who has stepped in to help me a couple of times in the 2yrs since I backed him so she is always willing to help me, but I think at this point it really is prudent for me to at least scope or treat first. My vet sometimes does scope clinics so I'm going to call them this morning.
I asked her to ride him after he decked me as i was convinced that it was related to the time of day I rode him, he was an angel in the PM twice and in the middle of the day she agreed with me and said he's like a different horse and that if she let him go he would bronc, but then I thought he looked slightly short behind one side and he was then medicated as the stifle operated on was a little fluidy, so I haven't had her back since as I didn't want to rush him back into work.
He's an angel on the lunge, always has been, sometimes I wish he would let it all out and mess about but I think we have done so much groundwork together he enjoys it and engages rather than expels the excess energy!
I haven't really gotten this far in the few recent times I have sat on him, we have a mounting block on the yard that we use when hacking, and one in the school that we use for schooling and they know the difference. His back is up under the saddle immediately that I sit down from either mounting block, it's an incredibly palpable difference to when his back isn't up - I haven't been confident enough that it's not pain to push him past it, I have always tried to show him that if he communicates I'll listen so I think that's half the reason I overthought myself into such a mess that I made my original post!
I asked her to ride him after he decked me as i was convinced that it was related to the time of day I rode him, he was an angel in the PM twice and in the middle of the day she agreed with me and said he's like a different horse and that if she let him go he would bronc, but then I thought he looked slightly short behind one side and he was then medicated as the stifle operated on was a little fluidy, so I haven't had her back since as I didn't want to rush him back into work.
He's an angel on the lunge, always has been, sometimes I wish he would let it all out and mess about but I think we have done so much groundwork together he enjoys it and engages rather than expels the excess energy!
I haven't really gotten this far in the few recent times I have sat on him, we have a mounting block on the yard that we use when hacking, and one in the school that we use for schooling and they know the difference. His back is up under the saddle immediately that I sit down from either mounting block, it's an incredibly palpable difference to when his back isn't up - I haven't been confident enough that it's not pain to push him past it, I have always tried to show him that if he communicates I'll listen so I think that's half the reason I overthought myself into such a mess that I made my original post!
foxy1
Well-Known Member
It really doesn't sound like you are overthinking at all- something has changed and you are taking notice, very wise!
tda
Well-Known Member
ASBMO, I know you said saddle has been checked, but it sounds like it needs a second opinion if he's that reactive immediately on mounting
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Horses don’t put their back up instantly on mounting for anything other than pain. You sit down, it hurts, he tenses.
If it was remembered pain from saddle you would sit, he would feel it was ok and relax. If remembered pain from moving with a rider on it would only take a couple of rides.
So I am guessing current pain. Saddle check with different fitter. Scope. Watch that hock. If none of those then it’s likely something he tweaked while compensating for the hock.
Squeak
Well-Known Member
Out of interest which off the counter stuff did you use and what do you use now in your own version?
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I have also had 3-ish rides where he's been wonderful and moved beautifully, whereas closer to when I first backed him and the saddle wasn't right he was really back up and stuffy and didn't want to move, rather then back up yet still willing to move forward - I would also have thought it would be every ride.
(As a side note, having his back-up and a bit of a bronc is his go-to move, the only item in his repertoire and remains relatively low level, not rodeo style, it's perfectly sittable really and he's not expressly trying to get me off but the feeling remains disconcerting, especially the rounded tension filled stiff feeling it comes with beforehand. He has done it at times throughout the 2 years I have owned him as a result of many things, freshness, overwhelm, spook, sore saddle, angry at the rain, angry at the time of day he's being asked to work - so whilst I realise it's relevant, please note that it remains that it could be anything)
However, message sent to saddler. It's worth ticking off the list for the sake of £95
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SEL
Well-Known Member
esomeprazole - Nexium is one brand but others are available
I use pectin and lecithin in my own brand mix, but they are both in at least one vet advised gastric aid. Then depending on whether I've got gassy issues with the grass I may also add fennel and marshmallow too. I get stuck into what is in the various gastric aids that are out there and have a play with what works.
My little cob will do silly broncs when she is over excited or tense - or I have the cheek to ask her to ride in rain. She is 13 and otherwise bombproof and I laugh it off. She will absolutely do it if she is unhappy with the saddle as well, but that would be an every ride situation (& was when she disliked her saddle)
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Pain from a bone surgery or limb is quite different to back pain. I've had both and the former for me was sharp stabbing, whilst the latter was dull achey. I would just give him some downtime (where he is if you don't want to lose the space) and do some gentle groundwork. I agree with those being suspicious that it's come on since the surgery. If the pain is neuropathic, all the X-rays in the world won't show it. Intermittent could just mean that in those 'good' sessions, he worked really hard and triggered the issue. At this time of year you could look for some horse agility, indoor trec kind of events and reassess in the spring.
Squeak
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I'm always looking in to options for my two. How much Nexium did you have to feed a day and was it split in to two feeds? And do you just buy the powders for pectin and lecithin?
Sorry for all the questions! There are so many options these days.
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
Not much to offer besides wishing you and Dex well, and hoping you get to the bottom of it all!
One of mine did similar around the same timeframe, and I got everything checked, even her ovaries! Got the all clear and got a young, kind lad to ride her for a few weeks and it ended up just being a case of the Kevins thankfully, fingers crossed it's the same for you and he's not hurting anywhere
One of mine did similar around the same timeframe, and I got everything checked, even her ovaries! Got the all clear and got a young, kind lad to ride her for a few weeks and it ended up just being a case of the Kevins thankfully, fingers crossed it's the same for you and he's not hurting anywhere
BBP2
Well-Known Member
I know you weren’t asking me, but I’m becoming way more of an ulcer nerd than I ever wanted to be, so I’ll chip in.
You’ll see on Facebook groups people saying they use 3-5 Esomeprazole tablets 1x per day and getting results, but my vet has prescribed 25 x 40mg tablets for my 450kg horse, to be taken with feed 1x per day. On prescription that is costing me approx £30 a week, vs £300ish a week for the omeprazole injections or £140ish a week for omeprazole paste. She also gets sucralfate.
Recommendation I had by nutritionist was 10g pectin, 10g lecithin, 10g magnesium hydroxide mixed with warm water to form a gel, added straight to feed or syringed orally once or twice a day. (Not prepared hours in advance). This was recommended for use in high risk periods once ulcers are healed, like travelling or pre-exercise. My ingredients have only just arrived and I haven’t yet switched over from omeprazole and sucralfate yet, so can’t say how this works yet. I may try it on my young gelding. I haven’t scoped him yet but he shows similar symptoms to last year when he was scoped with mild squamous ulcers. He is currently on marshmallow, slippery elm and aloe but I have seen no improvement on these.
The Arab held on to her ulcer behaviours for quite a long time after she scoped clear last time, so I can’t use her behaviour as a mark of healing, so she will be rescoped in 2 weeks.
Squeak
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much. That’s really helpful, I’ll look into it.
catembi
Well-Known Member
My youngster came from the same dealer as yours. Long story short, she had a looooong phase of being very reactive and explosive so even in hand work was dangerous. I came across kpu via a FB faecal water support group. I switched from haylage to hay, stopped all commercial feeds and only fed soaked sainfoin pellets and soaked hay care pellets and stopped all treats, carrots and apples. In 6 weeks’ time, she was rideable. She hasn’t bucked me off or threatened to since the diet change in March. She won her first ever sj comp and has just come equal first in dr. The person who advised me to get rid before I got myself killed now wants her on the dr to music team. We can even hack! If genuinely startled, she will react but then it’s blown over two seconds later and she is back to chilled.
If you want to know more about kpu, try looking up Alex Geudon on FB. She helped me to understand the whole thing. If not, you could just try the diet change for 6 weeks…after all, you’ve got to feed him something…and then see where you are.
Good luck!
If you want to know more about kpu, try looking up Alex Geudon on FB. She helped me to understand the whole thing. If not, you could just try the diet change for 6 weeks…after all, you’ve got to feed him something…and then see where you are.
Good luck!
canteron
Well-Known Member
Hope someone else has mentioned this (haven’t read all the thread) but if it is ulcers, bute will aggravate it, so just be aware if you do this.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Thank you everyone - just in the process of getting a few appointments booked in so fingers crossed I get to the bottom of it soon - will update when/if I have an answer
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
If you have a look at the research papers the dose is nowhere near 25 tablets! I cant remember the figure now, but 3 to 5 sounds about right.