WWYD? New horse is a rig.

hooknowz

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Hi all,

I'm just after some opinions, which would be really helpful right now. A few months ago I paid a fair price for a young "gelding". The owner seemed lovely, and was keen to find him a good home. He appeared safe, sane, and fitted the bill, so he came home. The yard he was sold from was very quiet, and he was on individual turnout. His only stated vice was being a little strong, which I figured was neither here nor there.

On arrival home he became a bit of a handful, bucking and rearing on the ground, vocal and stressy. I assumed he needed time to settle. Due to a change in circumstances I moved him closer to home a month later, so the settling period started again. He spent a lot of time pacing fence lines, dominating the other geldings (inclusive of mounting them), calling to mares, generally tarting around and even tried throwing himself over a stable door (mare the other side) on a couple of occasions. He was appearing more and more stallion-y, so I opted to blood test him.

The tests came back showing huge amounts of hormones. Scans and such later have deemed that the only way to find the offending part would be surgery, at a 4-figure price. This is obviously assuming that the retained testicle can be found, as it was nowhere to be seen on the scans. The vet was certain it's lodged high in his abdomen somewhere.

Now the old owner claims that she didn't know he was rig, however she has made it fairly clear that she was aware of his riggy behaviour prior to the sale. She had him on RigCalm (allegedly to no effect), and found he was better behaved when kept away from mares, but neglected to disclose any of this information before the deal was done. She claimed he was submissive, very friendly and was gelded prior to her owning him.

My question: WWYD? He's a lovely boy who is well behaved ridden (he'll start sweet talking mares, calling and showing off given the chance, but with a firm rider that's all it amounts to), but he can be a handful on the ground and I'm a little concerned. Obviously we haven't hit spring yet, so I don't know the full extent of his behaviour. Do you persevere and take the brunt of a large vet bill / possible liability on your hands, or do you call quits before anyone gets hurt?

Any replies appreciate, my head is running circles at the minute. Thanks.
 
You have several options:
1. Pursue this with the previous owner. If she is a dealer you should have a very good case. If she is a private individual I think you need to get an equine solicitor to advise you before spending any money. If you have evidence she knew he was a rig before he sold him to you, you may have a case as he was mis-sold.

2. You can get him operated. Is he insured? Would the insurance cover this? If not, can you afford the operation plus recovery time? If you like him and can afford the operation then it might be worth doing.

3. Find a yard experienced in keeping stallions and keep him as such to see if his behaviour improves. You may find that with the correct management and handling he is fine.

4. Sell him as a rig. Is he quite a useful horse? That is, can he do a job that people want done so that a new owner might be willing to put up with him being a rig/pay for the operation? If yes, you should be able to find him another home if you are very honest and very careful who you sell him to (as there is always the potential that someone may buy him just to sell on as a gelding). If he doesn't have any particular talents that justify putting up with him being a rig and none of the other options are a possibility then you need to consider drastic messures like PTS.
 
Clearly if he was sold 'as seen' then you have no legal position with the previous owner, however, you probably have a moral one.

I don't think you have much choice other than to go for surgery - and I would ask the previous owner to meet me half way on the costs (given that she didn't disclose useful and pertinent info such as Rig calm etc.). Even if she refuses I would go ahead as it is dangerous to him, others and to you to keep him 'as is', and you couldn't sell him without full disclosure. In any event you think a deal of him, so probably worth the effort and you could end up with a much nicer horse. The alternative is to treat him in every respect as a stallion, as an earlier poster suggests.

If the hormones are still being produced, he still has a testicle somewhere, as your vet suggests.
 
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Thanks Booboos -

1. It was a private seller. I'm going to seek advice in regards to where I stand, as I'm not clued up on equine law.

2. He is insured, a claim has been filed and I'm awaiting a response in regards to whether they'll pay. If they will, he'll be put in for the op, but I can't afford to do so if the insurance slam the brakes on (I'm wondering if they'll find a castration / pre-existing condition type argument).

3. Current yard is being very understanding and he's in a gelding-only field, but as fencing is only standard and the (indoor) stable block has both mares in there too, I'm unsure how manageable he'll be come spring. I'm not aware of any stallion-friendly yards in the area, but maybe it's worth a look into.

4. He's a green 13.3hh cob type... bombproof, but I doubt (in this market, anyway), that his value would justify an op. I don't know. He's quiet as a lamb when away from other horses, but he just loses his head at times when they're around.
 
Clearly if he was sold 'as seen' then you have no legal position with the previous owner, however, you probably have a moral one.

I don't think you have much choice other than to go for surgery - and I would ask the previous owner to meet me half way on the costs (given that she didn't disclose useful and pertinent info such as Rig calm etc.). Even if she refuses I would go ahead as it is dangerous to him, others and to you to keep him 'as is', and you couldn't sell him without full disclosure. In any event you think a deal of him, so probably worth the effort and you could end up with a much nicer horse. The alternative is to treat him in every respect as a stallion, as an earlier poster suggests.

If the hormones are still being produced, he still has a testicle somewhere, as your vet suggests.

...but in fairness, the testicle couldn't be seen? LOL. I am going to speak to her and ask what she suggests, I'm aware that it isn't good for him to stay as he is, and I don't have enough experience with stallions to really take that on.

C&O, thank you, I will PM you :)
 
So did you not find out that he was on rigcalm, acted like a rig before and was kept alone until after you'd bought him? Does this mean that you have already spoken to the owner about it? Just wondered how and when you found all that out..

Are there any yards that do individual turnout around? It sounds as though that system perhaps worked for the previous owner.

I know that horses are sold as seen, but this does sound as though a fair bit of information was withheld to secure the sale. I'm not sure why they would tell you afterwards though, its like admitting they lied.
 
Sadly, I think the market for a green cob-type rig is going to be extremely limited. I've worked on yards with true rigs, who were managed as stallions, and were no trouble, but they were competition horses who were exceptionally good at their job, so their quirk was deemed acceptable.
If he's the right horse for you in every other respect, I'd suggest trying to find a stallion-friendly or gelding-only yard, and seeing if his behaviour can be moderated to a point where you feel comfortable with it. If you do want to keep him on a mixed yard, or sell him,I think you're going to have to bite the bullet, and get the op done. Another thing to consider is that, even after successful surgery, he may well continue to display stallion-y behaviour for the rest of his life, so you need to think long and hard about whether this is ok for you and your circumstances.
 
So did you not find out that he was on rigcalm, acted like a rig before and was kept alone until after you'd bought him? Does this mean that you have already spoken to the owner about it? Just wondered how and when you found all that out..

Are there any yards that do individual turnout around? It sounds as though that system perhaps worked for the previous owner.

I know that horses are sold as seen, but this does sound as though a fair bit of information was withheld to secure the sale. I'm not sure why they would tell you afterwards though, its like admitting they lied.

His old owner has kept in touch since the sale to see how he's doing. I've had a few chats with her via email and such, and I've discussed the vet's findings. That was when she came forward and said that she'd had him on RigCalm and how she managed him. I asked prior to sale when he was gelded, how he was with other horses, behavioural problems / vices etc and nothing was said (my last boy was late gelded, so I was quite aware that I'd rather not have a "stud"). As there were no other horses around at the time of the viewing (strange, eh?), he didn't display any riggy behaviour. All I thought at the time was "isn't he good alone!" :( I was aware he was on individual grazing, but as far as I was aware it was just yard rules.

There are yards around that do individual, but whether they'd accept a rig is another matter. I don't know.
 
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I think that she's been a bit rotten to you. It may be worth asking other yards if they would take a rig. It may be worth trying him as she kept him before.

I really hope that the insurance comes through on this. I would also be speaking to an equine solicitor to find out where you stand on this. Good luck.
 
He was sold as a gelding? What does it say on the passport? Although there is not always a gelding certificate, there may be a vet record and tetanus jab.
It is just not normal for a young pony to be on Regcalm, it indicates a known vice which was withheld from you at the time of sale, a bit like buying a car with no engine but not specified in the ad.
I think the best thing is to offer him back to vendor and ask for your money back.
I found the BHS legal helpline was very good.
 
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His old owner has kept in touch since the sale to see how he's doing. I've had a few chats with her via email and such, and I've discussed the vet's findings. That was when she came forward and said that she'd had him on RigCalm and how she managed him. I asked prior to sale when he was gelded, how he was with other horses, behavioural problems / vices etc and nothing was said. As there were no other horses around at the time of the viewing (strange, eh?), he didn't display any riggy behaviour. All I thought at the time was "isn't he good alone!" :( I was aware he was on individual grazing, but as far as I was aware it was just yard rules.

There are yards around that do individual, but whether they'd accept a rig is another matter. I don't know.

Keep those emails. Speak to an equine solicitor. You were miss sold a horse. If you are a BHS gold member, call their helpline.

She withheld information which to me is very pertinent. A rig can be a dangerous horse in the wrong hands and if you are not experienced enough to deal with it, she should not have knowingly sold him to you without disclosing that information.
 
I don't know how helpful this is to you but I bought a three year old who was used as a stallion and the apparently gelded at 3. He is now 6 1/2 and up intil I moved to my current yard excibithed most the behaviour that your does although he sounds a bit better behaved than yours tbh I was honest with new yo when I moved and he is now in a field at the back of the yard with other geldings and as far away from mares a a possible, there is one mare in his stable block and sometimes he does show a bit of interest but I think keeping him away from them in the field has made all the difference, I have also found that he needs to be out with bigger horses who won't let him get too big for his boots. I asked my vet about a blood test and he was of the opinion that as long as I could manage him we would try without
 
Sadly, I think the market for a green cob-type rig is going to be extremely limited. I've worked on yards with true rigs, who were managed as stallions, and were no trouble, but they were competition horses who were exceptionally good at their job, so their quirk was deemed acceptable.
If he's the right horse for you in every other respect, I'd suggest trying to find a stallion-friendly or gelding-only yard, and seeing if his behaviour can be moderated to a point where you feel comfortable with it. If you do want to keep him on a mixed yard, or sell him,I think you're going to have to bite the bullet, and get the op done. Another thing to consider is that, even after successful surgery, he may well continue to display stallion-y behaviour for the rest of his life, so you need to think long and hard about whether this is ok for you and your circumstances.

I know :( I'm aware he'd have little to no resale value now anyway... he's only a dot, but he's a handful. One of the teenage girls at the yard tried to do me a favour a couple of weeks ago and brought him in for me (I didn't realise she was). Because she didn't hold him tight enough and walk between him and the mares, he tried to take her over one of the stable doors. I was told it took 4 people to drag him off. If you keep on top of him at all times, he's manageable. The minute you slip, he's gone.

He's a good horse, hence buying him in the first place. Having said that, I haven't really had him long enough to be completely heart-ruled when looking at it. We're on the yard we're on because they allow 24/7/365 turnout, which suits me as I work strange shifts and he's a hardy type. The vet has already said that behaviour is likely to stick around, I just don't know whether it's worth the battle or not. I'm feeling a bit deflated, really.

I think that she's been a bit rotten to you. It may be worth asking other yards if they would take a rig. It may be worth trying him as she kept him before.

I really hope that the insurance comes through on this. I would also be speaking to an equine solicitor to find out where you stand on this. Good luck.

Yeah, just a bit :( I will seek advice, and I'm keeping fingers crossed on the insurance... if that doesn't come through, I'm going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place, I think.
 
Another thing with my boy is that I have to be firm with him, he doesn't get the chance to misbehave if you know what I mean, if I think he's having a daft day he gets a control head collar on and has quite a strict routine- having been at this new yard he is a completely different boy now
 
Yeah, just a bit :( I will seek advice, and I'm keeping fingers crossed on the insurance... if that doesn't come through, I'm going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place, I think.

You're right, more than a bit! I totally used the wrong word.

I hope the insurance comes through so that you can keep the pony you like, however if not I think you should definitely take legal action. Surely in this case she has shot herself in the foot by telling you about how she had to deal with him!
 
MrsD - The advert and receipt both said "gelding", I'm sure his passport does too, but I'll double check that one. She claims she doesn't think the gelding was done professionally(?!), not by her I might add, therefore there's no records of it. It's not normal, and had she said she had him on RigCalm it would have set alarm bells off and I'd have walked. Having had another large vet bill earlier this year (horse lost at the end of it all), I just can't go through it all again. I'm not a member of BHS... do you think they could still offer some advice or would I need to sign up?

Jinglesmells - I will do, thank you. Perhaps I need to join the BHS... I know they can be dangerous, from what I can gather I think he was her first horse. Perhaps ignorance, or perhaps she knew she wouldn't sell him if she were brutally honest.

asommerville - Thank you. My YO is being as good as he can, I just worry about spring. He's spending most of his time staring out the mares from the bottom of his field at the minute. Not getting out, but to a point of choosing to mare-stare rather than eat. He's dropped a lot of weight since moving onto that yard. I'm very firm with him and he's always led in a halter or dually - after the last time he went up trying to dive into a mare's stable (and caught me on the way back down), I won't risk it. He's not given an inch, and 9 times out of 10 he's very well behaved. Having said that, I still can't risk having others handle him, and I'm still wary of spring.
 
I am so sorry this has happened to you. It's devastating. My last horse turned out to be a rig - after four years of ownership, he suddenly turned on a very old mare in the field, and tried to kill her. It took seven people to get him off, and thankfully the poor mare wasn't too badly injured (I paid for the vet to see both her and my horse). It was devastating, and my lad was in a solo paddock from then on.
 
Id put money on the fact that she knew (or at least strongly suspected).
I'd be looking to return him for the original purchase price as he's been mis-sold. Horses are expensive and time-consuming enough without messing about with this.

Do you have a receipt? Does it say 'gelding' on it?
 
I am so sorry this has happened to you. It's devastating. My last horse turned out to be a rig - after four years of ownership, he suddenly turned on a very old mare in the field, and tried to kill her. It took seven people to get him off, and thankfully the poor mare wasn't too badly injured (I paid for the vet to see both her and my horse). It was devastating, and my lad was in a solo paddock from then on.

Bloody hell :( See this is my concern... rigs can be fine for so long, but as the hormones build they can just snap... Did you have him operated on in the end, or did you just manage him?

Id put money on the fact that she knew (or at least strongly suspected).
I'd be looking to return him for the original purchase price as he's been mis-sold. Horses are expensive and time-consuming enough without messing about with this.

Do you have a receipt? Does it say 'gelding' on it?

She claims she thought he was "just a riggy gelding", other snippets lead me to believe she knew (or at least had suspicions) that it was more than that. Had she said at time of sale that he was a bit of a handful / had a few riggy tendencies, it would've covered her back. She didn't. I do have a receipt, worded and printed by myself as she was dragging her feet with doing one. It is signed by her, and the word "gelding" is on it, as that's what he was advertised as.
 
If he were mine, I'd wait to see what the insurance say. If they'll pay then get the op done. If not, then I'd find a yard where you could keep him as if he were a stallion, he'll probably settle a lot better if treated as one. If he's perfect for you to ride etc. then I'd persevere personally, if you sell him on then you'll have to let it be known (or should do, unlike the seller!) and will then have to take a hit on what you paid for him.

We had a 13.2hh trakhener x welsh rig many years ago, he was dreadful - a real handful on the ground, he'd jump fences to get to my mare and beat the hell out of my gelding in the process. He bolted with me one day back to the field with my mare in it, that was the end of it. I was only 11 and luckily he was only on loan - my parents had been told he was safe! We returned him to the owner where I heard he's gone through several Pony Club homes since sadly :( It's really hard when they're this small as only kids tend to ride them.
 
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I was told by a vet that if a retained testicle is not removed it can turn cancerous - testicles aren;t meant to be at body temperature, and also their hormones and behaviour is much more erratic than a stallion, as again the testicle is too hot so it affects this. Have no experience of rigs myself, this is just what I was told. However if insurance won't pay for the surgery - and even if they will, is it worth putting him through invasive surgery? - and old owner won't take him back you may have to cut your losses and have him pts
 
If he were mine, I'd wait to see what the insurance say. If they'll pay then get the op done. If not, then I'd find a yard where you could keep him as if he were a stallion, he'll probably settle a lot better if treated as one. If he's perfect for you to ride etc. then I'd persevere personally, if you sell him on then you'll have to let it be known (or should do, unlike the seller!) and will then have to take a hit on what you paid for him.

We had a 13.2hh trakhener x welsh rig many years ago, he was dreadful - a real handful on the ground, he'd jump fences to get to my mare and beat the hell out of my gelding in the process. He bolted with me one day back to the field with my mare in it, that was the end of it. I was only 11 and luckily he was only on loan - my parents had been told he was safe! We returned him to the owner where I heard he's gone through several Pony Club homes since sadly :( It's really hard when they're this small as only kids tend to ride them.

Mm, that's the problem. I'm adult, but he was bought as a cheap-to-keep, fun, happy hacker that I could work on schooling on over the summer. He's bombproof on roads and sane in open fields alone and in company, but I can't vouch for what else he can do. For a cob he's not massively built, so at 5'6 I'm probably pushing his limit for a rider. He's not aggressive in any way, he's just very full of himself. He jumped the fence the first night I moved him onto current yard. He was put in an individual paddock initially, with electric tape between him and the herd. He was in there all of 5 minutes before he threw himself in there... I guess we were just lucky it was only the boys' field. He hasn't done it since, but he's proven himself capable.

It's scenarios like your second paragraph that worry me. He's bad enough at the moment for screaming and prancing at any horses we see out and about, I can only imagine what he'll do when they start coming into season.

I was told by a vet that if a retained testicle is not removed it can turn cancerous - testicles aren;t meant to be at body temperature, and also their hormones and behaviour is much more erratic than a stallion, as again the testicle is too hot so it affects this. Have no experience of rigs myself, this is just what I was told. However if insurance won't pay for the surgery - and even if they will, is it worth putting him through invasive surgery? - and old owner won't take him back you may have to cut your losses and have him pts

Yeah, as I understand it it's fairly common for them to have changes, often cancerous. His single testicle is working overtime as he has around 80% of the hormone levels you'd expect in a stallion, I'm guessing due to the body temperature. That's another option to possibly consider if push comes to shove, the surgery itself would be keyhole so in theory not too bad... however because of that it's a fairly expensive way to go about it.
 
I had a rig, bought him knowing that and that he would need the op. One testicle was down and the other was really high up in his abdomen.
The op was done at Cotts Farm and cost me £575. He's a Welsh Cob and still thinks he should be a stallion:)
 
I am really sorry for you. I recently had experience of this, the neighbours bought a pony for their daughter that spent all its time trying to get to mares and a horse ended up in horsepital.
I bought a rig from a breeder knowingly, I paid a pittance and told her if it was going to cost megabucks to geld him properly he would be PTS. It did cost me less than £500 but he was a nice pony before gelding. If they won't take him back and you really like him I would shop around for the op, I would also make she you have really good third party insurance and do a risk written risk assessment so if anything happens no one can say you were negligent. In the short term I would try and find him somewhere away from mares.
 
I suspect the contract may be void because both parties acted on an incorrect assumption, i.e. that the horse was a rig. You need a good equine solicitor.

What I do find a bit odd is that the seller claims the castration was "not done professionally". I thought all invasive surgical procedures on horses had to be done by a vet?
 
I've read some of the thread but basically you've been sold a horse that is not as described & it should go back to the original owner & your money refunded.

People have mentioned wether the original owner new the horse was a rig, of course she did. You don't put a horse on Rigcalm for no reason. You have your vet saying that the horse is a rig, presumably you have an email from the original owner mentioning the Rigcalm? With both those pieces of information the original owner has no leg to stand on & should accept the return of the horse & pay you your money back in ful. If she challenges this she'll end up having to do that plus her court costs & yours as she will lose the case. Any solicitor will advise her to repay & have the horse back because there is no real arguable case.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the insurance paying for an operation because there is little doubt that they will successfully argue that this is a re existing condition.

Good Luck.
 
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I had a rig, bought him knowing that and that he would need the op. One testicle was down and the other was really high up in his abdomen.
The op was done at Cotts Farm and cost me £575. He's a Welsh Cob and still thinks he should be a stallion:)

I think it's fair enough if you know what you're signing yourself up for. Also had he cost me <£500 (rather than nearly 3x that), again I'd have called fair play.

I am really sorry for you. I recently had experience of this, the neighbours bought a pony for their daughter that spent all its time trying to get to mares and a horse ended up in horsepital.
I bought a rig from a breeder knowingly, I paid a pittance and told her if it was going to cost megabucks to geld him properly he would be PTS. It did cost me less than £500 but he was a nice pony before gelding. If they won't take him back and you really like him I would shop around for the op, I would also make she you have really good third party insurance and do a risk written risk assessment so if anything happens no one can say you were negligent. In the short term I would try and find him somewhere away from mares.

Maybe it's worth shopping around... (duncey question, sorry) did you literally ring around equine hospitals for quotes? Fences have been electrified for his benefit(!), he's led in a halter with a chain, and he's only handled by myself at the moment. The risk assessment may be a good idea... I'll get one written up.

I suspect the contract may be void because both parties acted on an incorrect assumption, i.e. that the horse was a rig. You need a good equine solicitor.

What I do find a bit odd is that the seller claims the castration was "not done professionally". I thought all invasive surgical procedures on horses had to be done by a vet?

You'd think so. All I can gather is that he was bred by travellers, and she's led to believe that the procedure was a pretty nasty one - that it wasn't done professionally. He was late gelded (around 2 or 3, I think, again not disclosed prior to sale), too. Bottom line was that there was unlikely to be any record of it, and that it could well have been "something gone wrong".

I've read some of the thread but basically you've been sold a horse that is not as described & it should go back to the original owner & your money refunded.

People have mentioned wether the original owner new the horse was a rig, of course she did. You don't put a horse on Rigcalm for no reason. You have your vet saying that the horse is a rig, presumably you have an email from the original owner mentioning the Rigcalm? With both those pieces of information the original owner has no leg to stand on & should accept the return of the horse & pay you your money back in ful. If she challenges this she'll end up having to do that plus her court costs & yours as she will lose the case. Any solicitor will advise her to repay & have the horse back because there is no real arguable case.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the insurance paying for an operation because there is little doubt that they will successfully argue that this is a re existing condition.

Good Luck.

Thanks. The vet will confirm that he's a rig, I'm debating calling her and asking if she can write a statement to say as much. I have emails / messages stating that he was on RigCalm, and also that she always thought it was more than just learnt behaviour, that there had to be hormones left in there somewhere.

He's a lovely boy and I was really smitten with him when I bought him, but I'm really starting to resent the situation. Maybe it's better to just call quits and start again.


ETA: His passport just states "male".
 
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I think your chances on the insurance paying out are slim to none as behavioural conditions are usually excluded and this is what this would fall under. It is not detrimental to his health so no reason to operate. Sorry. You could ask the owner refunds you and takes him back if she has admitted to him being fed a supplement that is pretty specific to this problem! However, that depends on whether you feel in fact you can manage this behaviour on the ground if you say he is ok ridden?

For what it's worth I have a very riggy pony although when we had him tested it was negative (I dispute those results!). He has always been a very dominant gelding and looked fab and he exhibits done very stallion-like behaviour in how he 'manages' his herd. However, we have our own land and only have geldings so, although any new introductions have always been managed carefully and take time, his behaviour isn't too much of an issue.

He went on loan once as a pony on his own - this doesn't bother him as he'd been kept as the only pony where I got him from - however, they got a mare on loan shortly after and kept them separate. Well, totally out of character for mine, he jumped a very high fences to get to her. He NEVER would normally do that. He did it twice though, injuring himself the 2nd time so the loanees decided safer to leave them together.

Mine has always had impeccable manners on the ground hut he was 8 when I got him and had been passed round several homes and a sales ring. Maybe his rigginess had something to do with this?! He though has always been rather neurotic and ott in his reactions to things. Still, he's 28 this year and still in good health although just been diagnosed with cushings in the last year.

I think you have to weigh up the pros and cons and I would suggest trying to find a gelding only yard if you can, see if this helps.
 
I was told by a vet that if a retained testicle is not removed it can turn cancerous - testicles aren;t meant to be at body temperature, and also their hormones and behaviour is much more erratic than a stallion, as again the testicle is too hot so it affects this. Have no experience of rigs myself, this is just what I was told. However if insurance won't pay for the surgery - and even if they will, is it worth putting him through invasive surgery? - and old owner won't take him back you may have to cut your losses and have him pts



This.....

I bought a 4 year old colt from The Ascot sales many years ago, on examination by the vet I found out he had a retained testicle and had to have the op done at the vets, luckily the testicle was found not too high up! Unlike your boy mine was exceptionally quiet and not a problem around mares.
I would seek legal advice as I personally think she has been very economical with the truth!
 
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