WWYD? New horse is a rig.

It's called Cryptorchid and can become cancerous if left. If previous owner won't help with costs and insurance won't pay I would definitely thinking about having him pts.
 
Dry Rot said:
I suspect the contract may be void because both parties acted on an incorrect assumption, i.e. that the horse was a rig. You need a good equine solicitor.

What I do find a bit odd is that the seller claims the castration was "not done professionally". I thought all invasive surgical procedures on horses had to be done by a vet?
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I'm guessing the 'gelding' was removal of a single correctly decended testicle which a vet worth their salt would surely be very reluctant to do. So in effect someone was happy to lop one off to make the pony appear gelded
 
I really think you have a good case to return this pony to the vendor. Did I read somewhere that a buyer has 6 months to reject a horse. You were mis-sold the pony as a gelding, when he isn't a gelding.
 
The previous owner must has know.
Did they get him gelded?
The vet would know a part of his testicle was left behind.

Or did an owner prior to that have him gelded?
In which case seller didn't disclose all of the information to you but was able to control it.

If you like horse, then take advice and steps to manage it and maybe save for the op.
Langford vets local to use are doing the op for less than £1000 for a retained testicle.
 
Firstly you need to speak to someone legal - I'd suggest the BHS helpline if you are a member, or your insurers may have a legal helpline. If not another equine solicitor.

Secondly you need to be clear in your own mind what outcome you want from this? This is tricky in a way as the cost of the horse is likely to be less than the cost of the operation.

In your shoes I'd do the following things in the following order:
1. Get legal advise
2. Contact the seller and advise them you are seeking legal advise as you believe you have been mis-sold the horse. The seller has witheld information about the horse and has later admitted his riggy behaviour.
3. Wait and see what the insurance say - maybe they will payout, if so that might be the best route to take. If they won't then
4. You either fight to return the horse for a refund, or offer to accept the refund amount (buy back the horse for £1) and pay the remaining operation cost out of your own pocket.
 
hooknowz said:
Hi all,

I'm just after some opinions, which would be really helpful right now. A few months ago I paid a fair price for a young "gelding". The owner seemed lovely, and was keen to find him a good home. He appeared safe, sane, and fitted the bill, so he came home. The yard he was sold from was very quiet, and he was on individual turnout. His only stated vice was being a little strong, which I figured was neither here nor there.

On arrival home he became a bit of a handful, bucking and rearing on the ground, vocal and stressy. I assumed he needed time to settle. Due to a change in circumstances I moved him closer to home a month later, so the settling period started again. He spent a lot of time pacing fence lines, dominating the other geldings (inclusive of mounting them), calling to mares, generally tarting around and even tried throwing himself over a stable door (mare the other side) on a couple of occasions. He was appearing more and more stallion-y, so I opted to blood test him.

The tests came back showing huge amounts of hormones. Scans and such later have deemed that the only way to find the offending part would be surgery, at a 4-figure price. This is obviously assuming that the retained testicle can be found, as it was nowhere to be seen on the scans. The vet was certain it's lodged high in his abdomen somewhere.

Now the old owner claims that she didn't know he was rig, however she has made it fairly clear that she was aware of his riggy behaviour prior to the sale. She had him on RigCalm (allegedly to no effect), and found he was better behaved when kept away from mares, but neglected to disclose any of this information before the deal was done. She claimed he was submissive, very friendly and was gelded prior to her owning him.

My question: WWYD? He's a lovely boy who is well behaved ridden (he'll start sweet talking mares, calling and showing off given the chance, but with a firm rider that's all it amounts to), but he can be a handful on the ground and I'm a little concerned. Obviously we haven't hit spring yet, so I don't know the full extent of his behaviour. Do you persevere and take the brunt of a large vet bill / possible liability on your hands, or do you call quits before anyone gets hurt?

Any replies appreciate, my head is running circles at the minute. Thanks.
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Have a read up of this, it may be worth giving them a call and seeing where you stand. http://www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html
 
Really bad luck,
As others have said you need to seek advice about what rights you have with a private seller.
It's perfectly possible the seller did not know I bought a gelding who exhibited all the behaviours of a rig once he got to our yard with mares around .
He was not a rig but he was a appalling with other horses I too tried various types of rig products on him .
Regumate ( the stuff for naughty mares ) fixed him .
If you like the horse and it seems you do perhaps you might be able to do a deal with the seller otherwise if you go to law you will end up returning him if you win.
 
julie111 said:
It's called Cryptorchid and can become cancerous if left. If previous owner won't help with costs and insurance won't pay I would definitely thinking about having him pts.
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Seems a bit of a overreaction having him PTS surely? Sounds more like he just needs proper management and handling - he needs to learn some manners on the ground and really to be kept away from mares. It sounds like surgery maybe won't be as expensive as OP is thinking. However, I'd be wary of going down this route if scans have not managed to pinpoint where or if there even is a retained testicle. I would be tempted to try a supplement route first to see if this helps him a bit and makes him easier to handle. Maybe Regumate or similar as someone suggested (isn’t it raised oestrogen levels they test for in Rigs anyway, not testosterone? Maybe that’s wrong but I am sure it’s something like that and not what you would assume).
Speak to your vet in more detail as to what your options are (that is if you wish to keep him anyway).
 
I really feel for you. My gelding can be so OTT at times where mares are concerned that I got him blood tested on the suggestion of people who have witnessed his behavior first hand, it came back a low result (not a rig) .... So even if you went ahead and had the op done, there is no saying his attitude would change .... what a crap place for you to be :(
 
I'm not sure PTS is an over reaction, although in this case I hope for the sake of the OP it is not necessary. I've been on a yard where a rig was liveried and he was a nightmare and dangerous. He injured several of us over the space of a few months. Thankfully his owner paid for the op to be done and he was a fabulous horse after that.
 
I've read (on a forum so take with pinch of salt but mentioning anyway just in case)
That a horse may be gelded (DIY style) in such a way that some hormone producing tissue is left behind on purpose to produce the presence of a stallion.
Obviously a numpty practice, but the world ain't short of those.
If it was a botched DIY op, I wonder if this is worth finding out if it's a possibility ?

Best wishes for a positive outcome, really hope you get it sorted.
 
ladyt25 said:
Seems a bit of a overreaction having him PTS surely? Sounds more like he just needs proper management and handling - he needs to learn some manners on the ground and really to be kept away from mares. It sounds like surgery maybe won't be as expensive as OP is thinking. However, I'd be wary of going down this route if scans have not managed to pinpoint where or if there even is a retained testicle. I would be tempted to try a supplement route first to see if this helps him a bit and makes him easier to handle. Maybe Regumate or similar as someone suggested (isn’t it raised oestrogen levels they test for in Rigs anyway, not testosterone? Maybe that’s wrong but I am sure it’s something like that and not what you would assume).
Speak to your vet in more detail as to what your options are (that is if you wish to keep him anyway).
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If the testicle is very high up then it can be a very expensive operation and not necessary change his behaviour! Rigs can be extremely dangerous and I'm sure most livery yards wouldn't want one! So yes pts might be the best option.
 
PTS is not over reaction dependent on if op is succesful on horses future manners. Of course management is key but more importantly so is safety of others both human and equine. OP i feel for you so much as this is mind field but get proper legal advice. assess with your vet options talk to insurance. also look for a yard suitable for him so you can at least breath and take stock of situation. You need to think,if you keep him and have op and worse scenario his character doesnt change, ahead. plan for future. poss yards if have to move. poss your own land blah blah blah. Hope that makes sense but typing away on phone as comes in head. hugs x
 
ladyt25 - I know there's a serious possibility that the insurance won't pay out, hence this thread. If they pay out, we try the surgery, simple as. If they don't, I have no idea what to do for the best. Having said that, a retained testicle is detrimental to health because of the relatively high risk of cancer. There are very few gelding-only yards in the area, and even less that allow them to live out year round. I'm reluctant to move, to be honest, as I love the yard.

Julie111 - PTS a last resort, but it is being considered.

WelshD - I think you've hit the nail on the head. It looks like a gelding, therefore it'll sell.

Orangehorse - That's what I'm thinking, too. Although I'm going to feel horribly guilty if he does go back, I think. He's a nice boy at heart, and I hate to think of him being shunted from pillar to post. At the same time though, it's a situation that I could really do without.

smellsofhorse - It was a prior owner that gelded. They managed it to an extent, I think, but I'm not sure truthfully how successful they were. Steps can be taken for the time being, but I don't know if I'm sitting on a ticking time-bomb in regards to spring.

ihatework - I'm not a BHS member. I'll try my insurance, I don't know if they have legal help or not. Good advice, thank you. Number 4. is an interesting one, and possibly worth considering should everything else fall through.

onemoretime - Interesting reading, thank you :)

Goldenstar - The seller has stated that she was aware of the behaviour, but not that he was actually a rig. She has said that RigCalm had no effect on him. I've currently got him on Agnus Cactus, and that's not made a difference either. I do like him, otherwise I wouldn't have bought him - however I'm finding myself increasingly frustrated about the situation, and therefore, him.

ladyt25 - I think it's a last resort, but one thing I will state is that I have been drumming manners into him. 95% of the time he will be golden, albeit vocal. He'll follow like a lamb, and stand rock steady. That other 5% is when he fixates on another horse, usually a mare. Once he locks on, it's bl**dy hard to throw him off. These are the times that he's gone up, started bucking, tried to go over stable doors, etc etc. He's well mannered, he just loses his head over other horses. He's kept away from mares as much as possible, but that's only viable to a certain extent on our yard.

daisysp8 - That's what the vet has said :( I lost my horse of a lifetime earlier this year, and I'm still left paying off the (rather large) vet bill from that. Buying a rig was the last thing I needed right now.

yellowdun - Yup, that's the concern. Rigs can be lovely, but they can also snap and be a serious danger. As stated, it'd be a last resort if all other avenues are exhausted, I think. Did the op make that big of a difference to him?

teabiscuit - That's fairly common, yes. Vet originally thought it could be, but because his hormone levels are as high as they are, they're now thinking it's more likely to be a full testicle. He certainly has the presence, lol. Thank you.

babymare - Thanks. See above re: manners. My own land isn't an option, I'd really rather not move yards (I'm on my perfect yard, with some very close friends), and I'm not in a position to pay for the op myself. That leaves the options of:
-insurance pays for op
-previous owner pays for op
-previous owner refunds money paid for him, which is then put towards op
-previous owner takes him back
-isolation
-PTS

I'm thinking, in that order. I'll seek legal advice to see which of those are really viable.
 
OP, do contact your local Trading Standards Office on Monday before you have to pay for expensive legal advice. Depending on where you are, they can be very helpful and might even take up your case. It's worth a try.
 
Yard I was on family bred from their cob and resulting colt had this issue. Wasn't insured, or worth anything. Their vet referred them to a major vet school, where the surgery was done for a nominal set fee (few hundred) in return for students, obviously under close supervision, being allowed to do the surgery. All went well, came home in excellent order. I remember they had to pay the set fee up front, but they were very pleased at the treatment he received.

Don't leave it, can go cancerous. Very tough on you and your yard if not experienced with entires. Best of luck.
 
Woodsider said:
OP, do contact your local Trading Standards Office on Monday before you have to pay for expensive legal advice. Depending on where you are, they can be very helpful and might even take up your case. It's worth a try.
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Trading Standards is for "traders" (businesses) and consumers, not a private seller-buyer arrangement. They may give you some general advice but they will not have jurisdiction here.
 
If you do go down the op route, as a previous poster said - shop around. I put off having a lump removed from my cat as the amount my vet quoted was very high. Moved to another county and the vet there quote a third of the previous vet's price. I had assumed that all vets prices were roughly the same.
 
asmp said:
If you do go down the op route, as a previous poster said - shop around. I put off having a lump removed from my cat as the amount my vet quoted was very high. Moved to another county and the vet there quote a third of the previous vet's price. I had assumed that all vets prices were roughly the same.
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Good advice. Always always shop around for vet services!

I also think the best resolution would be to put it to the seller that there has been a genuine mistake and she should simply take the horse back. It was bought as a gelding and is now obviously a rig.

Yes, the OP could get aggressive and claim that the seller has lied. That is misrepresentation and a criminal offence. I was always taught that when you have someone backed into a corner to give them some way to escape or they will fight you tooth and nail. Get into a fight and the legal fees will soon mount up. The burden of proof is much higher in criminal cases and can the OP really prove the seller knew and was deliberately deceitful?

I don't think the insurers would look at it.
 
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I think you are panicking prematurely. Speak to your insurance company. I don't see why they shouldn't cover it in the same way they would with any condition that was existent but not apparent at purchase.

The key is you didn't know he was a rig at purchase it didn't show up on a vetting (or insurance didn't require a vetting) and it has now been diagnosed. You insured the pony in good faith.

I wouldn't get into the issue of whether you were missold with them just tell them that you have discovered the pony is a rig and would like them to fund the surgery.

We have a pony on our yard who was a rig until a year ago. He had the op (on insurance I believe) and is now a super safe and easy to handle pony. He is owned by an adult but shared by a child and the owner has a queue of people who want to buy him if she ever wanted to sell.
 
Just to to say, good luck and if I read your post correctly and you paid around £1500 for this pony, he was not a cheap option.

You are stuck until insurance or the owner come back. I have no experience of rigs, but, like you, would be concerned at the horse hurting either other people or horses. I have been on professionial yards where they have had the odd stallion but the horses were closely managed and both times, the owners knew how the stallions would react in season/around other horses etc so there was none of the guessing games you seem to have to deal with.

My only pennies worth is that,as you are not a member of the BHS, do you have any legal cover on your insurance? Also, as you now know this horse is a rig! has your insurance cover changed to reflect this? Worth asking, just in case. I do wonder if there could be an equine solicitor who would give you a 30 minute "free" conversation to understand your rights. This is caveated by, while there may be laws to protect you, the reality of getting money back is often pretty hard and a lengthy process.

Finally, I do echo the earlier comments about trying to work with the previous owner. She may be really stuck now herself. You sound like a very reasonable and measured person so I would advise you continue your discussions in the same vein!
 
Valerian might take the edge off him

Do you have any legal cover with his insurance or your home insurance? If nit it may be worth seeing if BHS offer advice as soon as you have joined them (there may be a period of time for it to kick in)
 
An afterthought - i would be factual with the last owner and firmly seek a refund on the basis that the pony is not as sold (use the word mis sold carefully as it just gets people's backs up) ifthe last owner bought him herself in good faith its up to her to send the complaint backwards and seek a refund from the people she bought from if she feels necessary but for now she needs to refund you really
 
JingleSmells said:
Keep those emails. Speak to an equine solicitor. You were miss sold a horse. If you are a BHS gold member, call their helpline.

She withheld information which to me is very pertinent. A rig can be a dangerous horse in the wrong hands and if you are not experienced enough to deal with it, she should not have knowingly sold him to you without disclosing that information.
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I agree with GG (surprise, surprise ;)) . . . she withheld important, material information from you in order to ensure/expedite the sale. At least give an equine solicitor a ring to get advice on how to proceed further.

Poor you and poor horse.

P
 
I think you will find the BHS legal helpline do not ask when you became a member, but it seems a clear cut case.
No way will any insurance company cough up [my opinion]
 
hooknowz said:
I'm reluctant to move, to be honest, as I love the yard.
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You're in a rotten situation, and I do feel for you, but this statement rather jumped off the page. If you do decide to keep and manage this horse, it doesn't really matter how much you love the yard if it isn't the right environment for him. I've been in that situation - a yard I loved, and a yard owner who is a very dear friend. It broke my heart to leave, but I had no choice as I had to do the right thing for my horse.
 
Auslander said:
You're in a rotten situation, and I do feel for you, but this statement rather jumped off the page. If you do decide to keep and manage this horse, it doesn't really matter how much you love the yard if it isn't the right environment for him. I've been in that situation - a yard I loved, and a yard owner who is a very dear friend. It broke my heart to leave, but I had no choice as I had to do the right thing for my horse.
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I think we are jumping the gun, the horse is not as sold, it should go back not be moved to a yard to suit it, if any such yard exists, with vacancies, yards willing to take problem horses may have their own problems!
 
MrsD123 said:
I think we are jumping the gun, the horse is not as sold, it should go back not be moved to a yard to suit it, if any such yard exists, with vacancies, yards willing to take problem horses may have their own problems!
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Yes - but the OP is looking at various options, so your statement that the horse must go back could equally be seen as jumping the gun. I don't see where she has stated that she wants to give the horse back!
 
I think in order to have any success against the previous owner OP would have to prove that they knew he was a rig.

As others have said, geldings can exhibit rig like behavior even when gelding properly, so the rigcalm can't be taken as a be all end all acknowledgement that he is a true rig.

As a private seller the horse is usually "bought as seen"
 
Auslander said:
Yes - but the OP is looking at various options, so your statement that the horse must go back could equally be seen as jumping the gun. I don't see where she has stated that she wants to give the horse back!
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Whether or not she wants to give horse back she should certainly make an immediate effort to find out if this is an option......... to my mind she has bought a horse which is not as sold, she has bought a problem horse. She is looking at a lot of costs [unknown amount] which she could use for other reasons, like purchasing a horse that does what it says on the tin.
She does not know if there is a certain outcome, otherwise it would be easy to say ......... "if I spend £2000 the problem will be solved".......... or "if I move yards [!] there will be no further problem".
If she was offered the horse for nothing, and willing to take a risk, a known gamble this might be acceptable, but she could spend a lot of money and end up in a different situation, but not necessarily a better situation.
 
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