WWYD? New horse is a rig.

[pennyturner]

OP, hope my experience will give you a little hope:

My little Dartmoor yearling (FTGH - wonder why?) turned out to be cryptorchid. He was a little sod as a 2yo, reared, screamed and pulled me around all over the place. I had some work to do in hand before he was safe - much to everyone's amusement, him being all of 11.2hh at the time.

Now 14 years old, he's a healthy, polite, gentle one-balled stallion, who can be ridden by anyone who's capable of sitting upright and holding a rein (gives pony rides at the local fete). He is my best pony, and I wouldn't swap him for the world.

He is kept in a bachelor herd, out 24/7 and away from mares - although he can be worked alongside mares with no problem.

 

[ladyt25]

I think you are panicking prematurely. Speak to your insurance company. I don't see why they shouldn't cover it in the same way they would with any condition that was existent but not apparent at purchase.

I don't believe any insurer would consider paying for this as it is not a disease or illnesses. It is not a necessary operation and they wouldn't authorise an operation just because it may prevent the condition leading to cancer. It's much the same as and insurance company not paying for general castration. However, if the OP's vet is extremely persuasive then maybe there's a very slim chance.........!

 

[Kat]

But it isn't a normal castration, there are complications with rigs that make it more necessary to have the surgery.

Anyway if it were me I would check the position with insurance before going down the route of legal advice.

The legal situation is not going to be straight forward. Can you prove that the last owner knew he had a retained testicle? The fact she fed him rigcalm is not evidence of this, only evidence of questionable behaviour. Did she ever have the vet out? As she is a private seller you will need to convince the court that she deliberately lied or misled you.

 

[windand rain]

my two penny worth is
1 the owner may not have ever had him tested as a rig so could arguable believe him to be a naughty gelding
2 Insurance are probably likely to wriggle out of it as they will at most things and then exclude everything else
3 I would ring around for a quote for the surgery and approach a vet school if there is one near enough and take the risk of students doing the surgery for a fraction of the cost after all if PTS is the other option if they make a mess of it and you lose him you will have lost him anyway and the op will more than likely be a huge and interesting success for the students
4 I couldnt manage a rig as I own several mares so I would have to PTS is the other options didnt come to fruition

 

[hooknowz]

There's a lot of good points, so please bear with me!

Yard I was on family bred from their cob and resulting colt had this issue. Wasn't insured, or worth anything. Their vet referred them to a major vet school, where the surgery was done for a nominal set fee (few hundred) in return for students, obviously under close supervision, being allowed to do the surgery. All went well, came home in excellent order. I remember they had to pay the set fee up front, but they were very pleased at the treatment he received.

Don't leave it, can go cancerous. Very tough on you and your yard if not experienced with entires. Best of luck.

Thanks pip, that's another option. The issue still remains though that I'm going to struggle to pull finances together for surgery. As stated, I'm still paying for the last one. I'll look into it and see how much we would be looking at, though.

I also think the best resolution would be to put it to the seller that there has been a genuine mistake and she should simply take the horse back. It was bought as a gelding and is now obviously a rig.

Yes, the OP could get aggressive and claim that the seller has lied. That is misrepresentation and a criminal offence. I was always taught that when you have someone backed into a corner to give them some way to escape or they will fight you tooth and nail. Get into a fight and the legal fees will soon mount up. The burden of proof is much higher in criminal cases and can the OP really prove the seller knew and was deliberately deceitful?

I don't think the insurers would look at it.

Mm I don't want to get into a fight, hence I don't know the best way to approach it. That sounds good to be fair. All I can do is keep fingers crossed re: insurance.

I think you are panicking prematurely. Speak to your insurance company. I don't see why they shouldn't cover it in the same way they would with any condition that was existent but not apparent at purchase.

The key is you didn't know he was a rig at purchase it didn't show up on a vetting (or insurance didn't require a vetting) and it has now been diagnosed. You insured the pony in good faith.

I wouldn't get into the issue of whether you were missold with them just tell them that you have discovered the pony is a rig and would like them to fund the surgery.

We have a pony on our yard who was a rig until a year ago. He had the op (on insurance I believe) and is now a super safe and easy to handle pony. He is owned by an adult but shared by a child and the owner has a queue of people who want to buy him if she ever wanted to sell.

Mm, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. My issue is if the insurance does fall through, I'm in deep doo-doo. I was just curious as to how other horsey people would deal with the scenario.

Just to to say, good luck and if I read your post correctly and you paid around £1500 for this pony, he was not a cheap option.

You are stuck until insurance or the owner come back. I have no experience of rigs, but, like you, would be concerned at the horse hurting either other people or horses. I have been on professionial yards where they have had the odd stallion but the horses were closely managed and both times, the owners knew how the stallions would react in season/around other horses etc so there was none of the guessing games you seem to have to deal with.

My only pennies worth is that,as you are not a member of the BHS, do you have any legal cover on your insurance? Also, as you now know this horse is a rig! has your insurance cover changed to reflect this? Worth asking, just in case. I do wonder if there could be an equine solicitor who would give you a 30 minute "free" conversation to understand your rights. This is caveated by, while there may be laws to protect you, the reality of getting money back is often pretty hard and a lengthy process.

Finally, I do echo the earlier comments about trying to work with the previous owner. She may be really stuck now herself. You sound like a very reasonable and measured person so I would advise you continue your discussions in the same vein!

Yes, he was marginally under the £1500 mark. Not cheap, for what he turns out to be. I'm sure he could be managed as a stallion by an experienced person without too much of an issue, but I have little experience of entires. I'm having visions of taking him on a fun ride come summer, landing myself in the middle of a bunch of in-season mares, and someone getting hurt. I need to check with the insurance re: cover, as he's insured as a gelding at present.

I will speak to her, I'm glad someone thinks I'm being reasonable - it's starting to feel like my brain is in meltdown!

Valerian might take the edge off him

Do you have any legal cover with his insurance or your home insurance? If nit it may be worth seeing if BHS offer advice as soon as you have joined them (there may be a period of time for it to kick in)

An afterthought - i would be factual with the last owner and firmly seek a refund on the basis that the pony is not as sold (use the word mis sold carefully as it just gets people's backs up) ifthe last owner bought him herself in good faith its up to her to send the complaint backwards and seek a refund from the people she bought from if she feels necessary but for now she needs to refund you really

I will check re: legal cover, I'm sure it'd be included somewhere. Very good point, and I hope one that she will see, too.

Poor you and poor horse.

That's what's tugging at my heart strings - he's a genuinely nice horse, and I feel sorry for him being passed around so much. At the same time, I'm not really in a situation whereby I can stand back and take such a big loss on finances, purely because someone wouldn't tell me the truth.

this statement rather jumped off the page. If you do decide to keep and manage this horse, it doesn't really matter how much you love the yard if it isn't the right environment for him. I've been in that situation - a yard I loved, and a yard owner who is a very dear friend. It broke my heart to leave, but I had no choice as I had to do the right thing for my horse.

I'm aware he would have to be managed, which is why I know it wouldn't be viable to keep him entire. I'm going to struggle to find anywhere local that would fit the bill for both me and him, which means I need to fix the problem, be that by surgery or by returning him. I wouldn't have even entertained viewing a stallion, because I know that I couldn't keep one.

Yes - but the OP is looking at various options, so your statement that the horse must go back could equally be seen as jumping the gun. I don't see where she has stated that she wants to give the horse back!

I'm undecided whether I want to or not. My head says it's the logical answer, my heart keeps asking where he's going to end up.

I think in order to have any success against the previous owner OP would have to prove that they knew he was a rig.

As others have said, geldings can exhibit rig like behavior even when gelding properly, so the rigcalm can't be taken as a be all end all acknowledgement that he is a true rig.

As a private seller the horse is usually "bought as seen"

I can prove that she was aware of significant riggy behaviour (and that she "always said" it was more than), though I doubt she ever had him actually tested. Should "rigginess" be a key point at time of sale, i.e. coming under "vices"?

 

[hooknowz]

Whether or not she wants to give horse back she should certainly make an immediate effort to find out if this is an option......... to my mind she has bought a horse which is not as sold, she has bought a problem horse. She is looking at a lot of costs [unknown amount] which she could use for other reasons, like purchasing a horse that does what it says on the tin.
She does not know if there is a certain outcome, otherwise it would be easy to say ......... "if I spend £2000 the problem will be solved".......... or "if I move yards [!] there will be no further problem".
If she was offered the horse for nothing, and willing to take a risk, a known gamble this might be acceptable, but she could spend a lot of money and end up in a different situation, but not necessarily a better situation.

I will find out, I'm just working out how best to word it. The worst part is the uncertainty of it all, and the fact that it's not necessarily a "point and shoot" in regards to fixing it.

I don't believe any insurer would consider paying for this as it is not a disease or illnesses. It is not a necessary operation and they wouldn't authorise an operation just because it may prevent the condition leading to cancer. It's much the same as and insurance company not paying for general castration. However, if the OP's vet is extremely persuasive then maybe there's a very slim chance.........!

My vet seems to think that the insurance *should* pay, so I'm hoping that her report will be very persuasive... however I see your point, and it is something I'm including in my thought process. There's absolutely no guarantees that this is covered by the insurance.

But it isn't a normal castration, there are complications with rigs that make it more necessary to have the surgery.


Anyway if it were me I would check the position with insurance before going down the route of legal advice.


The legal situation is not going to be straight forward. Can you prove that the last owner knew he had a retained testicle? The fact she fed him rigcalm is not evidence of this, only evidence of questionable behaviour. Did she ever have the vet out? As she is a private seller you will need to convince the court that she deliberately lied or misled you.

See above. I can't prove that she knew about the retained testicle, I can prove she was aware he was very riggy and had suspicions of more. Whether that is good enough for a court case, I don't know.