WWYD - pelham and grackle?

[DirectorFury]

(Yes, this is really a training issue but I need some backup while working on her manners. She's up to date on teeth, saddle fits, I'm confident it's not a pain issue but a 'very happy to be out and about' issue )

Hopefully this won't be super long!
Historically M has been a nightmare to bit, the only mouthpiece she goes happily in and doesn't curl up and sit behind is a mullen mouth. She's been in a hanging cheek version of this for a while now and it's all good. This is with a cavesson noseband, no flash as she's not needed one before (apart from a short time as a 5yo). However, as she gets fitter she's becoming stronger and stronger to hack - which has led to her shoving her head in the air, opening her mouth, and bogging off when she feels like it. A very long and boring story short we've finally settled on a mullen mouth pelham with a leather curb and 2 reins. This works 99% of the time but she's crossing her jaw and still taking off sometimes. Would you try a grackle noseband with the pelham as a temporary measure or is it a big no-no? Obviously the only real solution is to keep working on her manners so this nonsense stops but I could do with some backup while I'm working on it!

 

[ester]

plenty do, it means the curb pressure is different/more there to stop over-rotation. Crack on

 

[ihatework]

I’m a realist and not an idealist so yes I probably would (short term).

Can you identify what is triggering the behaviour?

Is she still inverting head before bogging off ..... in which case I’d try standing before grackle

 

[SpringArising]

I'd use a Pelham with a flash or grackle without a second thought if I needed one. The only bits I don't like using flashes and grackles with are single joints.

People are quick to say 'It's a training issue', but you need to nip behaviour like this in the bud before it becomes a habit. Once you're able to make her realise she physically can't bog off when she wants, that's when you can start reverting back to milder set ups.

Use what suits you and the horse. I'd also get her teeth looked at for peace of mind.

 

[Chippers1]

A Pelham with a grackle was the only way I could control my old pony out doing xc! and it wasn't a training issue as by this time he was in his twenties and had had him years, I could do everything else in a snaffle, xc was much more exciting though.

 

[DirectorFury]

Can you identify what is triggering the behaviour?

Is she still inverting head before bogging off ..... in which case I’d try standing before grackle

The only trigger seems to be that we're not on the road - if we're on tarmac she's good as gold and does a lovely trot when asked. The second her hooves hit grass, sand, mud, rutted tracks (that we've never done anything but walk on!), stone tracks, etc. she's wanting to be off. She does it both going towards and away from the yard so it doesn't seem to be a nappy thing.

She's largely stopped throwing her head up before bogging off now but will still do the odd head flip if I'm too strong on the reins when asking her to slow down . I could try a standing but she's the sort of horse to 'hit' the restriction of it and have a blind panic (I swear she's not as mental as I'm making her sound)!

People are quick to say 'It's a training issue', but you need to nip behaviour like this in the bud before it becomes a habit. Once you're able to make her realise she physically can't bog off when she wants, that's when you can start reverting back to milder set ups.

Use what suits you and the horse. I'd also get her teeth looked at for peace of mind.

I'm going to get a second opinion on her teeth just in case. The 'training issue' was more a disclaimer as I know largely how to stop this with training and repetition but I'd rather not a) die or b) have her get hurt in the mean time.

Thanks all, I've got a grackle on order now, hopefully it'll turn up before the weekend!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Try a drop rather than grackle? Not as aesthetically pleasing, but does a good job without having to be too tight.
Or, go back to snaffle and try a market harborough, that did work on a hefty ISH as she leant on herself, and a couple of others I had for assessing and working through.
Hope you find something to help!

 

[ester]

as a bit of an aside elasticated standings exist

 

[Michen]

Yup I do for hunting. Sometimes I even use roundings.. horror!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would try a PeeWee bit. Let her try crossing her jaw in that!

 

[Goldenstar]

I would prefer a grackle with a Pelham to a flash .
I know it’s not ideal but sometimes you just have to do what works .

 

[Micky]

Can you ride on the mud, sand, grass and school her on those surfaces somewhere? I only ask as my old lad used to do this, in a strong bit (don’t ask cannot remember for life of me) so we added a noseband, he still crossed his jaw, turns out after I took it off as I wasn’t happy he was still playing up, I was a little tense, bit heavy with my hands and I schooled him in all gaits on the grass at every opportunity..problem resolved itself, and he listened to me, stopped crossing his jaw, flinging head etc..just a thought.

 

[DirectorFury]

Try a drop rather than grackle?

You might be onto something there TFF *.

Can you ride on the mud, sand, grass and school her on those surfaces somewhere?

I school her on all surfaces regularly (no school on our yard) so they shouldn't be overly exciting. I just need something that means I can stop her when she decides she's off!

* As a small update - I've tried the grackle 5x now, 3x with the pelham and 2x with the normal snaffle. In the normal snaffle she's a million times better into the contact than she has ever been. I'm wondering if she likes the bit being stabilised and thinking about trying a drop. She's also easier to stop than she was and we've only had one bogging off incident which stopped very quickly.
In the pelham she's become angelic and super easy to stop with my seat. We went out to the beach with 3 others today (against my better judgement!), she happily walked the whole time including on the sand. When we had a canter on the cliff tops she stayed in control, let others overtake her and didn't turn into a demon! I half think that this is a coincidence with the grass being less rocket fuel like but I'm not complaining .

 

[sportsmansB]

If she likes the stability of the bit you could look at a Micklem for every day. I had a fussy mare and it was the only bridle she was truly happy in. Think you can try before you buy with Micklems. I know people have concerns about the leather quality on some of them - but you can pick up a second hand off ebay for the same price as a very average ordinary bridle anyway.
It was the stability of the bit which my mare liked. She was much happier to the contact.

 

[Northern Hare]

My horse is fine in the school with just the regular dressage legal tack, but for hacking I've found the best combination for him is a Micklem bridle (ie. drop noseband) with vulcanite mullen mouth Pelham - it made a massive difference. He has roundings on his Pelham as he's exercised by the yard staff - but tbh he's fine in roundings and I don't think I'd bother with double reins even if it was only me riding him (sorry I know that's not good horsemanship in may people's eyes) - you can ride him on a nice light contact with no effort to stop even when out with other horses - he's very happy in it and totally respects it - and it's much safer as well.